"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's July 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Hi sharkwave welcome to the thread. Your mother sounds like mine: hard work, a whinger and a martyr. I think you need to step back from her and become less available, see her less. It's really not reasonable or normal behaviour.
"the more I include her the more she demands and the more she whines when we do stuff without her." She will never have enough, you have to stop giving yourself
"Sometimes I just want to spend time with DH and DD" of course you do, that's normal and how it should be, they are your family now.

"My brother never takes her anywhere - he says he's not that stupid" he manages lower contact with her, you need to take a leaf out of his book, although I appreciate it's hard.

xx

I hope your day was survivable good. sessions can be really tough and leave you in pieces.

Post when you're ready :)

Hi Meerka, I'm here...eating chocolate and half watching some bollocks about the Loch Ness monster on the TV :)

It was intense as we were talking about what to do if she got in touch with me. I said I wouldn't be surprised if she simply never spoke to me again, she has form for that with others. And although NC is good now, the idea that she might never speak to me or my lovely DC ever again hurts, because it means she doesn't love us at all. That I have a mother who doesn't love me. Not really, not in any meaningful sense. So that was hard to say.

We discussed a bit that eventually I might decide I want some kind of contact with her and how to handle that. He suggested a max of 30 mins a week and retreating at the first sign of any shit. He was saying, if you go down that road, be honest, say what you will and won't tolerate, get up and leave if she plays up and sya why.."fight manipulation with the truth". He wasn't at all suggesting I contact her, just how to protect myself if there is contact at some points.

But, atm I just don't want any contact becasue I know how she will behave. She will do the drama llama thing and it will just be a source of stress for me. Why do that for someone who can't even apologise for treating me like shit?

After the session my disappointing feedback provoked a little attack of "I'm useless" and I had a little wallow, but my friend/tutor was encouraging and I have to dust myself off, use the criticism constructively and turn it into doing better next time, I deserve to do better.

The same goes with my mum. I deserve peace and quiet. I don't have a mother so I have to mother myself, I have to put me first. So, there will be no contact...not for now. It was hard thinking through all that but I needed to do it to come out stronger on the other side, more sure of myself, beacuse I struggle mightily with that..believing in me. Will have to do a mantra or something..I believe in me.

Hi Sharkwave

I think what you need to do here is raise your boundaries re your mother a lot higher than they are because they are currently way too low and she is taking full advantage. This is about power and control after all.

Such people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.
I would consider now blocking her number from your phone if she persists in calling it. If that though is currently a step too far you can certainly not ask her to any more school events that take place or take her on holiday with you.

You could also take a leaf out of your brother's book and maintain a lower form of contact with her.

GoodtoBetter

Counselling sessions can be very hard going like today's session was for you. I think you have made so much progress to date that I urge you to keep going, where you are today emotionally and where you were a couple of years back are light years apart.

I hope you have a nice weekend.

Thanks Attila, how are things with the in laws and the tests? How is your DH holding up? It must be hard watching someone deal with their family being shits, I know my DH found it hard watching my mum being such a cow but me being stuck in the FOG.

I'd like to thank all of you lovely people who have responded to me in the last couple of days re FIL.

The latest is that the doctors have found "something beneath the brain swelling" (and its not his empathy unfortunately because he has none anyway!) so they're going to do more scans next week.

DH is managing all this very well and has not gone overboard on contacting his mother. I'm doing ok and am so pleased that DS's work experience has gone well for him this week, I'm so very proud of him.

That all sounds good, glad DH is OK. Ha ha about empathy!!

Atilla your DH is lucky to have you and your wisdom, good luck to you.
My DM has been put on the waiting list for a hospice bed. The nurse wasn't surprised that I'm not coping, she agreed that DM is demanding. DM has cried tonight about dying with no one at her side. She's also started the panicky breathing again, so I'll probably be up and down all night. Still that will only justify why she needs to be in the hospice where they have all the best equipment etc. I know I'm doing the right thing. Just need to keep strong whilst I'm still looking after her.

ifuknow glad you have a hospice bed, and a withdrawal plan. I think you're handling this with dignity and grace, despite the impossibly hard circumstances. Your DM is really trying it on down to the wire. I can imagine how scared she is, and that perhaps she's finally (too late) realising that you reap what you sow.

fillie gosh, your post rang bells for me! What you describe in your DM is how I think mine justifies her narcissism - I never got looked after (she did have a crap childhood, was treated much less fairly than her brothers), so now I will try and demand it of others.
Your DM sounds similar - but you know what? Her issues are hers. Not yours. She is your parent, not the other way around. Love isn't a piece of string, it doesn't run out, and she's implying that there's not enough for you. That's her letting her issues get in front of her ability to mother you.

Also, the fresh pain from old wounds rang bells because a) it's very true, but it reminded me of the way my M has always justified her actions - she has so much historic pain, so now it's time the world made that better for her. I am torn between sadness for her and anger at her self-absorption. I'm also slightly scared that this is the beginning of me going down her route - it does hurt, but I need to find a way to put that to bed so that it doesn't poison my heart.

How often do you see your DM, fillie?

Meerka that's a really good idea. When I'm ready to talk to her, I think I will be proactive, and ask her to discuss her relationship (or lack thereof) with my DD. Normally after blow ups, we don't speak for a few days, then I ring her, she 'punishes' me with frosty tone of voice and imaginary illnesses and 'no, not been doing anything, I don't have anything to fill my days, do I?' etc.
Thank you!

shark hi, good to meet you.
Your DM sounds very overwhelming. You put it really well - your mobile is for your convenience, not hers. Have you said that to her? What does she usually call you about? Is it small, pointless things that are 'vital' that you know about?
I sound like I'm all 'me too, me too', but my M does this massively. Huge anger over not being able to call me from Tesco to tell me nappies are on offer. Totally out of proportion and overbearing.

Could you tell her you're switching off your mobile during the day to focus on DC and DH?

good (sorry, on app, and have memory of goldfish, so have to re-read each person's posts before replying!), your therapy she's so sounds intense. How are you feeling today? I'm sorry about the negative feedback, but well done for bouncing back out of it and working, that's amazingly strong.
I don't think it's true that your DM doesn't love you - that implies choice and free will. I think she's damaged, and incapable of showing you love, regardless of her feelings (which are impossible to know). But I think mothering yourself is a great idea, and really brave of you to accept it and try to find solutions for you and your family.

Attila ha at empathy! Well done your DS as well, it sounds as if you are doing pretty well?

Happy weekend, stately homers!

Longtime lurker here!
Just reading your posts is comforting as I realise these family dynamics are fairly common and I'm not mad or bad! Just wondering how many of you had the WOW moment of reading the description of Narcissistic Personalities and realising that your parent - in my case M - was an exact match.

Humpty "Normally after blow ups, we don't speak for a few days, then I ring her, she 'punishes' me with frosty tone of voice and imaginary illnesses and 'no, not been doing anything, I don't have anything to fill my days, do I?' etc." That is EXACTLY what my mother usually does. God, they're all so similar, aren't they? They even say the same things!
Dusty, yes...I had a long thread on here a couple of years ago while we were still living with her and someone mentioned narcissism. I went and read about it and was just left open-mouthed! She ticked virtually all the boxes for narcissistic traits.
Humpty I do understand what you are saying, I think she does love me in her own warped way, but the way she expresses love and deals with people not behaving how she'd like is so fucked up and dysfunctional that it's the same difference really. If she can't behave decently to me and my family then really it doesn't matter whether she loves me or not, there has to come a point where I withdraw because it's too much. Thanks for saying I'm brave, I don't feel it..I feel like the little "panic aged" girl a lot of the time. But I don't have the luxury of moping. And I refuse to. Sometimes I find NC so overwhelmingly sad that I'm tempted to resume some contact but I ultimately don't think that would be good for me, certainly at this time, so I try to minimise it, to tell myself it's good to have a break and she's an adult and can choose to contact ME. Cos I'm still inclined to feel responsible for her far too much.
Oooh, that was long.
newday how are you? Are you still reading?

I don't mean I think anyone struggling is moping by the way. Sorry I worded that badly. I meant I have kids and I don't want to affect then with all her sit and how it upsets me. I have to give life a good life despite all this crap flying around.

Hello Dusty PeasI always knew my DM was different to other mothers. I'm adopted so thought it was something to do with that. Yes I did have a Eureka moment when I read about NPD, she ticked all the boxes.
I get that she's got NPD because of her childhood; father walked out and they struggled to live. But I also had a shitty childhood but don't have NPD, what makes certain people more susceptible?
Gootobetter well done for maintaining NC. I know what you mean about feeling responsible for your DM, that's me to a tee. Why do we continue to feel like this? It's so difficult to unlearn that response isn't it?

I'm trying to work through all my shit so that the moment DM dies I'm never looking back or wasting another second of my life feeling angst about the damage she caused.
Last question... are young girls continuing to struggle with NPD mums? I'd like to think that help would be available, but how would it be signposted?

Thank you Stately Homes board for being such a help to me.

Humpty I'd think you were my sister but I don't have one . she phones all the time, but usually for nothing. Her favourite trick is to call the landline at 8.25am, the time we have to leave for school. We don't have caller display so I daren't leave it in case it's something important.

She'll say, I know you're in the middle of racing out but (eg) what's happening at Christmas? WTF?

It's like the second something pops into her head she has to call that minute.

It's just not worth the fall-out of calling her out on something. She'll sulk and sulk and I end up apologising. She's been told over and over that when we are travelling the phones are in the boot. She gets quite hysterical if we are due somewhere and we are late. Trouble is my DH has no sense of time and we are always late. So she's trying all the mobiles and can't get us.

It's not normal though, is it?

So very glad I stumbled across this thread .... I have read as far as aug 18th so far and suffer from dyslexia .. so will take a decade to catch up .. just marking my place..

I have recently been seeing a counsellor for my Family / Parent issues but have not felt she has been much use as i only have 6 sessions and a lifetime to cram in ... where do I possibly even start ..

i read toria post and feel like I am reading my own post ... sounds very similar

The Mother ok-ish right now We actually have a relatively 'close' (as in i see her quite a lot and we r both still alive) relationship but I truly believe she has no idea of the resentment i have towards her and how much her and my father have messed me up !!
dad is your typical lazy no good semi violent (towards mother not me or bro ) prioritises pub , self , tv , pub in that order .. However i have learnt since having Ds 4yr that its not all his fault mum baby trapped him to have me.
in telling me "i was trying for you a year before i told your father "

And When dp and i broke up for a short period the words of confort were "don't worry dear your not the 1st women to use a man for a baby and wont be the last "

she has been really hlpful over the past year because she found a rich boyfriend on golddigger.com and has been throwing money at our failed relationship ... but i am bursting with issues and am terrified i may turn into either one of them or my issues will project onto my children

I will work through posts gradually may help with some of the clarity I need .

sorry for the long ass post ..and breath !

No, it's really not sharkwave. It actually sounds somewhat aggressive, all the deliberate ringing at inappropriate times.

I wonder about why some people develop it too. Got a private theory that there is a genetic pre-disposition, often (but not always) trauma but also that there is a matter of choice in it.

The trauma is when something so awful happens that it damages someone to the core, either one event or a long-term trauma like being brought up by a very dysfunctional parent. I think also feelign powerless has a lot to do with it; manipulativeness sometimes comes from wanting to get your (legitimate) needs met in circumstances where you just can't. Eventually you learn that being manipulative gets you what you want. You keep going ...

The choice part it'd go is like this:

In any situation you can choose to react with a sort of balance of what you want and the other person wants, or else you can react from only a ME ME point of view. You keep choosing the ME option, wanting only your own way all the time instead of sometimes compromising. As the years go on, the decision making is the same until each and every time you're going to make the same choice. In theory you can make another choice, but actually you won't. In the end, you've made the ME choice so often that the habit becomes too strong and you can only make that choice. You have lost sight that there is anything else you can do.

Just my theory! :)

I do know, absolutely, that with some personality disorders eg BPD, wanting to get better can slowly improve things. If you don't want to it'll just get worse. The saddest is when someone (eg my biol. mother) tries to do better and fails badly.

HI dustypeas and edgar, welcome

Hi edgar and dusty and welcome.
Yes, I wonder why some people become dysfunctional and others don't. With a narc mum and alcoholic father Dbro and I were prime candiates for one disorder or the other or both and yet, we're OK. Not sure why really. I can see my mum had a really dysfunctional relationship with her own mother (almost certainly a narc) but why i am not a narc, I don't know. Self awareness? But then, why me and not her?

Goodtobetter- your post about your discussions in counselling/therapy sound just like the one I had with mine this week! I am currently nc with my mum (except for few text exchanges during my dc's birthdays recently- initiated by her) but wondering how it will be in the future. Difficult to imagine not having her in my or my dc's life but at same time finding it hard to imagine how the future will look with regards my relationship with her. I feel it's fine at mo as nc gives me time to sort my head out (after many years of denial or dismissing her behaviour) but can't carry on like this forever can I?

Also my dh despises her so feel this will influence how things move forward but have talked about the issues this brings with my therapist. Think this is linked to my desire to try to please everyone, avoid upsetting people!

Wish I could know how things are going to turn out and how I can move forward.