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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

DH suggested I put this to you lot. What do you think?

422 replies

AntideluvianCat · 25/07/2014 11:43

I'm going to try to keep this as neutral as possible, as it seems DH and I both completely believe we're in the right, despite our opposing views. Also going to try not to drip feed.

We've been together two years, married just over a year. We both have DDs from previous relationships. Mine (12) lives with us and goes to see her dad overnight at the weekend; his (13) stays two nights a week. My DD has some SEN, and coupled with the hormonal chaos of being 12, can be quite hard work. I also work 25 hours a week in a job that I love, but that can also be stressful and a bit overwhelming (social work).

A couple of months ago, DH told me that if I won't dress up for sex - ie. stockings, suspenders, thong, basque, whatever - he can't see any point in our relationship continuing. I was absolutely flabberghasted. It was like being kicked in the head. He did apologise, and we patched things up a bit, but he keeps coming back to the same thing every time we have words. He says that it would make him feel wanted and appreciated, that he is constantly giving to me, and that I give nothing back.

Thing is, I DO want and appreciate him. I love him. I'm so glad we found each other, at this relatively late stage in life (I'm 40, he's 50). But I find the weekdays hard, when DD is playing up and I'm exhausted from work and the constant bloody grind of housework and organising everything. As consequence, sex tends to happen at the weekends. I'd say we probably have sex a couple of times at the weekend, and sometimes, but not always, once during the week.

The funny thing is, that at the weekends when I'm relaxed and can focus on us rather than everybody else, I do dress up for him, and am happy to do so. I really enjoy it, and love the effect it has on him. This morning, during yet another argument about this, I reminded him of this, but he said it doesn't count because I'm only doing it under duress. I'm not doing it under duress, but it seems I can't win. He is insistant that I should - on say, a Tuesday evening, when I've been at work, then come home and have been running around doing domestic chores and coping with / helping / monitoring / disciplining DD til 9.30pm, I should pop on some saucy underwear and adopt the sex kitten persona. But I don't want anyone to make anymore demands on mme. It's all I can do to crawl into bed and read for half an hour.

In the interests of balance, I should add that DH has more money than me and props me up a bit financially, which I'm incredibly grateful for and regularly tell him so. He does most of the washing up, hoovers the house once a week, cleans the bathrooms, does any gardening, and helps me with DD a lot. I have quite high standards domestically (but not ridiculous - I only clean once a week and change beds every 7 - 10 days), and am very tidy. Being tidy helps me feel on top of things, and I make no apology for it. DH says that he likes my standards, but doesn't really help to maintain them. I feel that I tidy up after him a lot.

An example: He eats a lot of biscuits. I have asked him to use a plate for these, as otherwise I have to clear up his crumbs. He refuses; thinks I'm being ridiculous. I got a telling off a couple of weeks ago for asking his DD to eat off a plate too. I've tried to explain to him that this little thing could actually help with the sex thing - I wouldn't feel so resentful having to clear up after him all the time. But it is just dismissed. He actually said to me this morning (and I quote) " we should have high standards domestically, and high standards in the bedroom" Shock

Your goign to tell me to LTB aren't you? Sad

OP posts:
ManNetter · 27/07/2014 10:41

Gilbert: Yes I joined specifically to comment on this thread and no I do not have vested interest or any other motive.

Homebird8: You are correct, actions do speak louder than words but that cuts both ways. The OP will have to end the relationship as her OP can no longer be trusted. Otoh, if she stays, her actions tell her DH that he can continue to push the envelope in future. I dont think life and relationships are really that simple.

OP: "Though they might get on if they met". The implication is a bit unfair. All I've tried to do is see both sides of the argument.

GilbertBlytheWouldGetIt · 27/07/2014 10:54

Why this thread though? What is it about it that you found so compelling? Genuinely interested.

AntideluvianCat · 27/07/2014 11:24

ManNetter you're right, it was unfair. I'm sorry. I'm just a bit cross.

I too am intrigued though, as to why you'd join this forum just to comment on my sordid situation. One of hundreds on here every day. What's your interest? Do I know you? Shock

blueuggs I'm sorry you went through that. Thank you for posting though. It helps.

OP posts:
angel1976 · 27/07/2014 11:27

OP, my marriage broke up early last year and I'm with a lovely partner now but not without problems (more about that later...). But please do not feel like a failure if this marriage doesn't work out. I feel a certain pressure to make my current relationship work (and I hate to think how bad the pressure would be if I had married my partner...) because I 'failed' the first time even thought it was exH who left for OW. But because you have done the single parenting thing before successfully, you can do it again. Don't feel you have to depend on this man. Financially, I am better off with DH around but if my relationship doesn't work, I know that I can go back to single parenting tomorrow rather than remain beholden to a man for its financial 'benefits'.

We had some problems in the beginning with my DH 'finishing' when our relationship turned sexual. I suspected porn use but it took me months to make the connection that it was his alcohol use that was causing the 'problem'. If he drank too much, he couldn't come. I didn't like his drinking habits too and told him as much. I didn't like the fact that his drinking affected me in other ways too. He was not an abusive drunk but a sleepy one! He would fall asleep at 9 if he had a few drinks. I realised that that was no way to live. I did not want to spend the rest of my life like this. It took a while for him to realise that I wasn't against drinking per se (was happy for him to drink occasionally and the odd big night out for special occasions) but the effect it has on me and also that when he chooses to drink, he is choosing that over me and my feelings, which is selfish. We've now come to a compromise - he doesn't drink at home and to control the amount he drinks when doing it socially. I'm not sure if he can change the habits of a lifetime BUT he has definitely changed. The verdict is out... But I have made it very clear that I will no longer put up with that sort of selfish behaviour.

He desperately wants to marry me when both our divorces come through but honestly I doubt I ever will want to marry again... Maybe I will change my mind, who knows? Be strong OP. You deserve every ounce of respect in a relationship... Good luck! Thanks

AntideluvianCat · 27/07/2014 11:28

Oh, and I've just realised (after 48 hours) that I've spelled my name wrong. It should be antediluvian (duh). One of my favourite words. Apologies to my DH any pedants out there Wink

OP posts:
ManNetter · 27/07/2014 11:34

Gilbert- I've been asking myself the same question. I cannot relate to kinky man's behaviour necessarily so it is not empathy.

I suppose on a human level, I do feel some sympathy. It sounds wishy washy but it is hard not to feel sympathy when someone gets a unanimous kicking from The Internet (and in real life too).

Does that make any sense?

CarryOnDancing · 27/07/2014 11:35

Anti, I wish I knew you in real life so I could hug you and tell you in person that you really really are worth more than this.

I know you don't feel strong enough to leave yet-and that's understandable as your self worth has been manipulated by your H. Unfortunately his control extends out of the bedroom.
However, can you see that this situation is abuse?
Incase you are in any doubt: THIS IS ABUSE! This thread is about up it actual life!

You will leave eventually. I just hope he doesn't harm you too much in the meantime. I feel sad for you and your DD that this time is being wasted. Eventually she will move out and this time together will have been lost in your abusive relationship.
Then of course there are the issues she may take with her.

Be kind to yourself.

CarryOnDancing · 27/07/2014 11:36

ManNetter-in what way is the OP getting a kicking here?!

ManNetter · 27/07/2014 11:42

Anti: No need to apologise. Your head must be all over the shop right now. I hope you work things out one way or another.

I really have no other interest and I am starting to wish I stayed away from commenting.

LetsFaceTheMusicAndDance · 27/07/2014 11:47

Please answer the question. In what way is the OP rather than the OP's H getting a unanimous kicking?

springydaffs · 27/07/2014 11:57

Nobody's picked up on manetter's assertion that sex is used in all relationships as a manipulative tool scuse pun and I can't go along with that. I certainly have never done that though I have sometimes been so turned off by my partner being a shit that I don't fancy him. Recurrent crumbs would come into the 'shit' category as refusing to do something he knew was important to me because not doing it would create extra work for me.

HolgerDanske · 27/07/2014 12:04

Man is saying that OP's husband is getting the unanimous kicking...

I also do not at all agree with the assertion that sex is used as a manipulative tool in all relationships.

Bruins · 27/07/2014 12:20

OP, your H's explanation makes sense to me, and explains a few things that I didn't get.
At the weekend the punishment doesn't work because you're enjoying it too, so he has to try and make you do certain things for his pleasure alone. The more coerced you are, the more he gets from it.

He really does have a masochistic streak to him I'm afraid. Good luck with that OP.

justiceofthePeas · 27/07/2014 12:25

I think ManNetter thought the OP'sH was getting a unanimous kicking.

OP you absolutely hit the nail on the head with deflecting the blame on to me. It is the abusers handbook page 1. Nothing is ever their fault. Not really. they had a bad childhood. They don't feel properly loved. They can't help it they are just tye way they are. And anyway you were mean to me.

Liking something your partner does not like sexually is OK.
Coercing your partner into doing that is selfish and inconsiderate at best.
Using sex to punish someone for not cooperating is vile, degrading, disgusting and utterly abhorent. It is a most insidious form of control (which is why it is so often seen in warfare, conflict zones and totalitarian states as a weapon of subjugation. It has NO place in a loving relationship)

And sunflower I hope you escape. I would see a solicitor, contact WA and have an almighty bonfire of all that tat in the back garden.

justiceofthePeas · 27/07/2014 12:27

Bruins sadistic/misogynistic surely?

GilbertBlytheWouldGetIt · 27/07/2014 12:40

Thanks for responding, ManNetter. I don't personally feel sympathy for him, I do think he has emotional issues and is a manipulative individual who would benefit from some straight talking from a third party.

However, he has reached the age of 50+ and this attitude is going to be well ingrained. I don't fancy the chances of an epiphany happening.

rootypig · 27/07/2014 12:52

Sex is currency in all relationships, I agree. For some (many?) people it is an important or even necessary way to connect with their partner, and to feel wanted and secure. Among a plethora of other reasons.

And sex is negotiated in many relationships, of course it is.

But sex is intimate, it's allowing someone access to your body, giving them permission to touch you as they will. It is doing things for your partner's pleasure and satisfaction.

And so all negotiations have to be informed by respect for your partner's autonomy, ultimately.

This is the line that OP's husband has crossed. He is issuing threats and ultimatums - threatening to leave her! - bullying her into meeting his needs, with no regard for her own. And as ManNetter notes, this is when she is already engaging in a joint sex and fantasy life.

There is no 'reason' on earth - and my response to his hurt over the OP's rejection of the idea of a family holiday was that that is, seen on its own, valid, and needs to be explored - that would make that ok.

Compounding this, he is adding to her stress and exhaustion by - by his own admission - withdrawing cooperation and contributions to the household and refusing to do domestic labour. I mean, who the fuck does he think he is? These are not optional obligations. These are the backbone of a joint life together. They are not bloody bargaining tools in his horrible little enterprise of - what? - pushing OP so far that she cracks, and gives in?

OP's OP says that DH has been throwing his toys out of the pram because he doesn't like sex "under duress". Ha! you have got to be fucking kidding. It seems to be the opposite to me. OP has said that she enjoys the sex that they have, several times a week, in which his fantasies are catered to. But this isn't enough for him. I think duress and coercion are important to him, actually, and if he's honest with himself he'll admit it.

OP there will always be something beyond what you give that this man will want. He has said it himself. He has to be given something because he wants it, and for that reason alone.

Long term counselling for him, STAT, or LTB. Really.

rootypig · 27/07/2014 12:53

Oh just seen what Bruins wrote, above. Sorry, bloody phone. Yes, I agree entirely.

FunkyBoldRibena · 27/07/2014 12:56

It sounds wishy washy but it is hard not to feel sympathy when someone gets a unanimous kicking from The Internet (and in real life too).

How do you 'know' that the OP's DH is getting a kicking in real life?

ManNetter · 27/07/2014 13:06

Yes, I meant her oh was getting a kicking not the op.

Springy- I think you may have embellished my comment by saying sex is used as a manipulative tool in all relationships.

My exact comment was

"At some level or another, using sex as a tool in a relashionship is commonplace.

Consciously or unconsciously."

And that was in direct response to a previous comment.

Gilbert- that's fair enough re the sympathy thing. I am trying hard not to get into a position where I am defending kinky man but if his excuse is genuine, it is worth giving a fair hearing by the op.

His approach and methods do seem to stink though

ManNetter · 27/07/2014 13:15

Funky- I meant that is no fun seeing someone getting a unanimous kicking in real life in general. I was not referring to her
oh specifically

rootypig · 27/07/2014 13:16

But ManNetter - see mine and Bruins's comments above - if it were an 'approach' or 'method', that would be bad enough. But increasingly it seems that this is is not a means to an end, but a source of satisfaction in itself.

FunkyBoldRibena · 27/07/2014 13:18

So..man tells wife to ask a forum what they think. Then man finds an excuse to try and rationalise his demands after unanimous declaration of abuse. Then when that fails; another man mysteriously comes on to defend him and advise the wifey to consider the explanation.

Hmm

And gullible isn't in the dictionary, eh?

FunkyBoldRibena · 27/07/2014 13:20

if his excuse is genuine, it is worth giving a fair hearing by the op.

If his excuse IS genuine, then it is worse than the actual problem in the first place.

That's the point!

FuckYouChrisAndThatHorse · 27/07/2014 13:24

I think we have a gf.

I hadn't even considered Bruin's point! You're right. The "punishment" wasn't working (why on earth would a woman enjoy sex after all? Hmm ) but a midweek pester when dw isn't interested? Bingo.