DH suggested I put this to you lot. What do you think?

[AntideluvianCat]

I'm going to try to keep this as neutral as possible, as it seems DH and I both completely believe we're in the right, despite our opposing views. Also going to try not to drip feed.

We've been together two years, married just over a year. We both have DDs from previous relationships. Mine (12) lives with us and goes to see her dad overnight at the weekend; his (13) stays two nights a week. My DD has some SEN, and coupled with the hormonal chaos of being 12, can be quite hard work. I also work 25 hours a week in a job that I love, but that can also be stressful and a bit overwhelming (social work).

A couple of months ago, DH told me that if I won't dress up for sex - ie. stockings, suspenders, thong, basque, whatever - he can't see any point in our relationship continuing. I was absolutely flabberghasted. It was like being kicked in the head. He did apologise, and we patched things up a bit, but he keeps coming back to the same thing every time we have words. He says that it would make him feel wanted and appreciated, that he is constantly giving to me, and that I give nothing back.

Thing is, I DO want and appreciate him. I love him. I'm so glad we found each other, at this relatively late stage in life (I'm 40, he's 50). But I find the weekdays hard, when DD is playing up and I'm exhausted from work and the constant bloody grind of housework and organising everything. As consequence, sex tends to happen at the weekends. I'd say we probably have sex a couple of times at the weekend, and sometimes, but not always, once during the week.

The funny thing is, that at the weekends when I'm relaxed and can focus on us rather than everybody else, I do dress up for him, and am happy to do so. I really enjoy it, and love the effect it has on him. This morning, during yet another argument about this, I reminded him of this, but he said it doesn't count because I'm only doing it under duress. I'm not doing it under duress, but it seems I can't win. He is insistant that I should - on say, a Tuesday evening, when I've been at work, then come home and have been running around doing domestic chores and coping with / helping / monitoring / disciplining DD til 9.30pm, I should pop on some saucy underwear and adopt the sex kitten persona. But I don't want anyone to make anymore demands on mme. It's all I can do to crawl into bed and read for half an hour.

In the interests of balance, I should add that DH has more money than me and props me up a bit financially, which I'm incredibly grateful for and regularly tell him so. He does most of the washing up, hoovers the house once a week, cleans the bathrooms, does any gardening, and helps me with DD a lot. I have quite high standards domestically (but not ridiculous - I only clean once a week and change beds every 7 - 10 days), and am very tidy. Being tidy helps me feel on top of things, and I make no apology for it. DH says that he likes my standards, but doesn't really help to maintain them. I feel that I tidy up after him a lot.

An example: He eats a lot of biscuits. I have asked him to use a plate for these, as otherwise I have to clear up his crumbs. He refuses; thinks I'm being ridiculous. I got a telling off a couple of weeks ago for asking his DD to eat off a plate too. I've tried to explain to him that this little thing could actually help with the sex thing - I wouldn't feel so resentful having to clear up after him all the time. But it is just dismissed. He actually said to me this morning (and I quote) " we should have high standards domestically, and high standards in the bedroom"

Your goign to tell me to LTB aren't you?

That's the thing with abusive men - they are perfectly capable of behaving like nice, ordinary, loveable, loving men at the beginning of a relationship. They don't call you a cunt and punch you in the face on the first date - of course they don't, because they'd never get a second date and they might get arrested on the spot.
There are usually a few little indicators, fairly early on but there's a whole lot of cultural pressure on women to excuse these things and explain them away. And yes, nice people do sometimes behave in not-so-nice ways - they might turn up late, snap at you, not do something they promised to do, disagree with you about something important; the world is not divided into Abusers and Perfect People - but nice people are generaly sorry when they have behaved badly. They generally offer an explanation as well as an apology and they try not to do it again.
Yeah, abusers are 'sorry' too, but their apologies usually include self-justification and blaming their partners and then they go on and do the same thing again and again and again.

Your H linking of your refusal to go on holiday with him and his DD to the house work and demanding that you dress up for sex is not the logical and rational response of a mature adult. It is the response of someone who is emotionally immature. In his mind, he score-keeps the good and the bad. If you are "good" and do what he wants, then he is "good" in return. If you are "bad" then he punishes you, and it doesn't matter that the punishment doesn't have anything to do with the original 'transgression'. This is not a logical, rational or mature response to a loved one, and neither is it a good dynamic for a relationship. He has placed himself in the position as your 'master' and you are his 'subordinate', to punish or to reward as he sees fit.

Something which I only learned a short while ago is "I do not exist on earth to to live up to someone else expectations, my life belongs to me. Equally no one is here on earth to live up to my expectations". Your H is expecting you to live up to his expectations, and when you don't, he punishes you for it. Even worse, instead of discussing issues with you like and adult and coming to a workable solution, he keeps quiet about it and sets you a test to see if you "love him enough to do [this] for him". This is a horrible way to live and will result in much resentment of him and his demands.

The thing is, these little gestures like making cups of tea, glasses of wine, driving you where you want to go and so on, they're very easy.

Like walking the dog and taking it to the vets.

Or washing the beloved car.

You don't want to be on the same level as a favoured possession.

Please don't go on a holiday with him just because he tricked you into agreeing to it. He was basically saying his issue is more important than yours - "back to the wonderful subject of me!"

Don't tell him that you are on to him. He'll be reading the thread so he'll know but also any argument or explanation that you put to him, he will undermine and deflect.

I doubt that the dressing up ultimatum is anything to do with the holiday conversation four months ago. The holiday is simply an excuse he used to make everything your fault and turn himself into the wronged party.

Tell him you've decided your first instinct about the holiday was correct and you're not going on it. Tell him as soon as possible so he can't say it's already booked.

Then, consider some counselling to help you to tease out how you got here, to get the strength to leave and to gain the confidence to say you'll never be in such a relationship again. This cannot get better.

What SGB said. Times jillion!

OP, did the escalation in kinky requests start before or after the holiday incident 4 months ago?

If before then you have your answer.

If after, then that reduces the certainty of it being an after-the-fact excuse.

ManNetter it makes no difference. Even if the whiny porn-sex demands WERE related to the OP's holiday refusal, it's still a fucking mad way for him to behave.

Vic- Agreed

But if, and that is a big if, there is some truth in the reasons, is it not worth talking it through.

For the record I think the OP has gone beyond the call of duty where her husband's demands are concerned. However, if there is disgruntlement on both a chat and a compromise should be attempted at least

I don't think women should be expected to "chat" to men who are using their sex lives to punish them for unspoken perceived transgressions; and I certainly don't see what there is to "compromise" on (perhaps OP should agree to let him bully her about sex she's too knackered for twice a month instead of four times?) I guess that's where you and I differ.

When someone tells you who they are LISTEN

Your shitty husband is telling you he's a petulant childish emotionally abusive manipulative bully who has a warped twisted view of a loving sexual relationship and has openly admitted using sex to punish you.

Ask any decent domestic violence org they will tell you he is an abuser.

Oh and he's still reading this thread.

I don't understand how you could stay in a relationship with someone who could never admit that they did something wrong. That sounds like the most exhausting, joyless task ever.

People have already covered the ltb angle, so I'll cover an alternative, which takes what he said at face value. I think you guys really need to sit down and lay your cards on the table. Stuff that needs to be addressed would be:

Communication. It is ridiculous that he has been holding something against you for four fucking months. This is utterly unacceptable and he needs to speak when he has something join his mind, not "punish" you for it.

His daughter; ask why he doesn't think you like her. Avoid getting insistent and dismissive. About what he says, but when he's finished, give a list of examples of you treating her well, or you guys getting along. You might want to point out that he always seems hyper stressed when she is visiting, and ask if he realized that.

The big one: him being annoyed about a holiday in no way justifies him bullying you and pressuring you into absolutely selfish requests which have no care about you or how you are feeling. That is manipulative and shitty, and if it happens again then you walk.

And really mean that last part.

But to be honest I'm just trying to be balanced. I have no idea why you would stay in this relationship which is already winding you up and making you feel like shit it after just two years!

At some level or another, using sex as a tool in a relashionship is commonplace.

Consciously or unconsciously.

That's not a justification and there are degrees-ie some situations marginal while other s are more extreme.

I can't say where the OP's fits on the scale without knowing the full picture.

And she is in the best position to decide that.

Hmm, mannetter.

I think "if you won't have sex in exactly the way I want it at exactly the time I want it, whatever else is going on with you, then there is no point to us being married" has gone beyond using sex as a "tool". Unless you consider a steamroller a tool?

ABl- If the demands are being made by her dp simply because he's just a tosser then he deserves what's coming.

However, we now have new information regarding the 4 month old gripe. I've re read the op and she says the offending conversation was two months ago, correct me if I am wrong though.

I'd like to think that if my oh was being unreasonable and subsequently stated a reason, I would want to explore the situation.

Op, what a tricky situation you've found yourself in, and H, of you're reading this - stop with the chip on shoulder rubbish and look how you ate harming your relationship.

Whether you mean to or not, you are manipulating her and her love for you to make her do exactly what you want, whilst not giving a shit about her as an actual human. Spoiled and disgusting.

Op, I'd just let all this soak in a bit and see how you feel. It's quite a brutal way of opening your eyes, this thread.

So about 1/3 of your marriage with your H (couldn't bring myself to say 'D') he has spent it punishing you?!

If Mr Anti has RTT , he'll no doubt be monitoring phone usage.

I remember that part well. I walked on eggshell about my bloody phone!!

Anti hope you're okay lovey.

However, we now have new information regarding the 4 month old gripe. I've re read the op and she says the offending conversation was two months ago, correct me if I am wrong though.

If the bit about the 4 month gripe was even in any part true, how does it link in any way to dressing like like a whore, un begrudgingly, for sex, and threatening the end of the relationship if it doesn't happen whilst also stating that if it does happen it must be the OP's choice. That is some serious manipulation and headfuckery there. And all because of concerns about a holiday? That's not new information, that is either trying to give a reason for it, or just trying to fuck with the OP even more.

Everything it would seem - is the OP's fault, and even when it isn't, references are made that make it look again, like the OP's fault. And when she does decide to end this, that will also be her fault, and instead of getting away from an abusive manipulator, she will be accused of breaking up a happy home.

It's so fucked up, it can't really be ironed out as they aren't creases but the actual shape of the thing itself.

It seems you've joined Mumsnet just to post on this thread, ManNetter.

Would it be fair to assume that you have a vested, personal interest?

ManNetter, if dh gave me an explanation for something, of course I would want to explore that with him. unless the explanation made the original issue a thousand times worse.

In this case it has gone from dh making demands and objectifying his wife for no specific purpose, presumably due to selfishness, to actively choosing to use sex to "punish" his wife for a perceived slight.

The former is bad, the latter is horrific.

So where the explanation is worse than the original issues, no, no I would be less likely to want to work things through than before.

Sometimes what a person does is far more telling than what they say ManNetter. Taking the OP's DH at face value, he makes demands, expects them to be satisfied willingly, cares not about the feelings of the person he makes them of, and gives a slight which took place four months ago, that he hasn't communicated, as a reason. I know I would be looking at the actions and not be that trusting, ever again, of the words.

Sorry but I think the holiday reason is bollocks designed to make OP feel guilty.

Did he really only start dropping crumbs/being demanding about dressing up for sex a couple of months ago?

So before this he did his willing share of household stuffs and didn't let his DD make a mess for someone other than him to sort?

I imagine there are a number of little "grievances" the petty twunt has been nursing for ages. If it wasn't the holiday, he would have brought out some other "hurtful incident" that he's blown out of proportion. Some other little thing in which you didn't give in to his demands.

The next time you call him on some bad behaviour, he'll trot out another little "hurtful incident" that will have happened months ago, and he'll expect you to apologise for that.

Gaslighting, passive aggressive, manipulating... utter utter twunt.

OP, do you really want to live with someone that treats you with so little respect?

I've read your thread anti, and it could be me.
I got together with and married my exH in 14 months - we had been close at work for 2 years before this so I thought the quickness was fine.
He had a thing about me dressing up too - we had all the issues you describe (even down to a similar age gap - he was 11 years older than me).
He had a daughter who was treated to the disney dad thing.
He rarely did much around the house, especially DIY which desperately needed doing, but wouldn't pay someone to do it. I would do what I could (like painting the hall stairs and landing which then stood half done for more than 3 years while I waited for him to do the bits I couldn't reach).
He would bring up long forgotten slights that I had allegedly caused months later.
Please note he is my EXH.
It took me 7 years to pluck up the courage to leave him and realise that I was getting nothing out of this relationship. It was making me ill by this point and our sex life consisted of me lying there, hating him. While he groped me like a teenager.
He wanted me to dress up all the time but could not understand that my desire lay out of the bedroom, ruined by my resentment for no help with the children (we had a child together who he took little notice of - don't ask me why I thought he'd be a good dad!!) no help around the house, no effort to do even little things together. I used to say I would dress up nicely if he took me out for a meal etc but wasn't prepared to ruin my lovely clothes by doing the housework in them just so he could get off on it.
I cannot agree more with the answers on this thread. Get rid of him and meet someone you can enjoy great sex with. I have and have not looked back - except when I do, I can now see this relationship for what it was - abusive, gas lighting, bullying and entirely built on shitty foundations.
Good luck
(He will make you feel like you're going mad. You will begin to question your every move, decision and words out of your mouth) THIS IS NOT NORMAL.