I think it's emotional abuse but not sure if I'm being melodramatic

[LucyLollie]

Just wanted some opinions/ advice on whether my relationship sounds in any way normal... my H tells me that I am naive to think that other couples don't have exactly the same kind of rows as us, but I think I know deep down that I'm married to a very unreasonable and possibly abusive man. I just don't know what to do about it.

I could give hundreds of examples of the 'type' of argument we have, but I'll give the most recent example from the last few days. It started on Sunday morning, when I walked into our bedroom at 9.40am with our two kids (6 months and 4 years old). It was H's turn for a lie-in (I'd slept until 9am the day before). I'd been downstairs and having breakfast with the kids since 7.30 and it was becoming a bit difficult to delay getting dressed etc for much longer. Also, he'd told me the previous month that he didn;t ever want to sleep past 10am anyway. Basically, I thought it was fine to come into the room and allow our eldest to wake him up. I said something like "morning! hope it's ok to wake you - couldn't keep them downstairs for too much longer." After a couple of minutes, it became apparent that he wasn't happy to have been woken at all. I was accused of being 'horrible and moody', and 'begrudging' his lie-in. I was left speechless (this is a bit of a theme) as I quite simply wasn't moody at all. I was absolutely fine!! I tried to say this, and reminded him that he'd said he didn't want to sleep longer than 10am... I was then told again that I was being difficult, moody and horrible (all in front of the kids) and that he would;t dream of doing that to me - I can;t possibly care about him if I can walk in and interrupt his sleep like that.
He was then off with me all morning, until I apologised and "admitted" that I was being moody. This is the ludicrous kind of thing that is now quite common for me - i.e. I admit to feelings and intentions that I never even had, just to stop him sulking.

Later that day, I was clearing away the kitchen and I put one of his magazines (that he hadn't yet read) in the recycling bin. He asked me later where the magazine was, and I remembered where I had put it and immediately retrieved it for him. I didn't apologise for doing it, I just said something casual like 'oh yeah, I must have done that completely on auto pilot - here it is." He accused me of not caring about him, being lost in my own 'bubble', being distant and self-absorbed all day, and said he 'couldn't BELIEVE' that I could do that with 'his possession'. It turned into a proper tirade, with him shouting and saying it was typical of how I have no regard for his things (honestly no idea what he means) and don't show any care for him.

On other occasions we've had huge rows when I've ordered the wrong drink for him in a pub, got myself cutlery at a buffet but didn't bring any for him, and when I've made a fuss about wasps at an outdoor restaurant (I'm scared of them, and he went absolutely mad at me for 'creating a scene'). In all of these scenarios, the row happens because 1) he gets angry with me for being "horrible" or "difficult", 2) I defend myself and tell him he's overreacting, and then 3) he gets angrier and angrier, demanding an apology. Sometimes I get angry in return, and other times (more the case recently) I just give in and apologise, even if it involves lying about how I really feel. On the occasions that I DO get angry, I can sometimes get very angry - I have actually accused him of being abusive, and have threatened to leave. It's because of this that I'm not sure whether it truly IS abuse, because I'm not exactly a beaten-down wallflower who can't stick up for myself.

Tonight I tried to talk to him about the lie-in and magazine incidents. I said that, despite apologising for them, I now feel stupid that I'm in a relationship where he puts words into my mouth, and that I wasn't actually moody at all over the weekend - but he was. He immediately got angry that I was "retracting my apology" and refused to talk to me. He called me f*ing insane, and shouted so loudly that our son came downstairs and asked why Daddy was being nasty to Mummy. Obviously that part completely breaks my heart. He regularly swears at me and calls me names (mental, insane and mad are the favourites at the moment, but he also uses bitch a lot). For my part, I call him abusive and tell him he's out of control and childish. I always end up apologising for calling him abusive though, whereas he's never apologised for the name-calling he does - he says he will call me a bitch if I behave like one.
He's never genuinely hurt me, but he has pushed me out of a room ONCE a few months ago (he said I should have walked out, and admittedly I kept resisting when he was pushing me as if to test whether he would continue... does this make me equally to blame??). I then fell on the floor, and the glass I was holding smashed everywhere. He yelled "I can't believe you just f'ing did that" as if I had done it in a fit of melodrama, instead of having been pushed down by him.
On one other occasion, he was yelling in my face (literally with his head pressed against mine) so I slapped him in an attempt to snap him out of it. It's the only time I've ever slapped someone around the face and I know it sounds terrible. He retaliated immediately by hitting me around the head. It still shocks me to think about it. It wasn't hard, but it completely shocked me. He said he was entitled to "hit back."

Other relevant things - he's not a financial abuser. He earns a lot of money and I have full access to it. I am a SAHM and used to earn good money myself, but willingly gave up my career to look after the kids. If I left I would get a lot of money, but I hate the thought of being a single mother. Why? To be honest because I would feel like I'd failed (there is pretty much no divorce in my family), and i'd be terrified of the effect on our son who adores both of us. I know that I lead a very charmed life and that H works hard to provide it for us. But he is stressed, often moody and difficult to live with as a result. He also expects me to do all of the home 'admin' (or find someone else to do it - he seems to think you can pay for everything...) which often leaves me feeling quite stressed myself.

This is turning into an essay but one more relevant fact... My H suffered from a big drop in testosterone over the last 12 months, due to medication he was taking. The arguments practically disappeared. However, he has nearly recovered now and things are going back to how they used to be. My ability to deal with them, having been through a 'good patch', is worse than ever. But if hormones are to blame, then is it fair to break up the relationship??

Thanks for listening to my rant.

zzzzz - thanks for your reply but I feel a bit misunderstood. I have never pushed him. I stood my ground when he was pushing me, but I didn't push back. I didn't walk away either though, which I guess is what you mean.

I agree that I shouldn't apologise for things that I;m not sorry for. This is my error, and something that I should have been a lot stronger about. It's not fair of me to give him the apology that he wants, and then resent him for it. I do it for an easier life, but it obviously doesn't work.

The household admin - I absolutely can manage it. I just find it hard when he goes mental at me for things not being perfect. I could spend hours describing what I mean (and this is where I'm not sure whether all marriages have these types of problems!). One example is that he's very hungry when he first gets in from work. I try to get dinner ready for 6pm but he also likes to have 'snacks' to eat straight away. Sometimes the available snacks aren't to his liking and there have been many occasions when I've been shouted at for this. It usually includes an accusation that I have no idea how easy my life is, and how difficult his life is.

I don't really know why you made a comment about the lie-ins? Usually my husband has a lie-in on both days of the weekend if he wants one (he doesn't always need one). I have one if I've had a particularly rough night with the baby (he doesn't get up if she wakes.. I'm happy to take that on as I don't work).

I am really interested in Bogeyface's comments about hormonal problems.
"If you tried to persuade me that I should just shut up and leave it alone then that would have enraged me more to the point where I would be screaming at both the accused queue jumper and you for not supporting me!"
This is EXACTLY what happened in the airport. I tried to tell him to stop it and calm down, and I was later told that I was an unsupportive wife. Apparently my refusal to stick up for him was worse than the man who jumped the queue.

As for where he gets it from, there's absolutely no doubt that it's from his mother. She is also a confrontational person who regularly falls out with people, ranging from her own family to neighbours on the street to shop assistants. She was nasty to him when he was a teenager (according to him, but I don't doubt it) and he felt very wronged. I think he's paranoid about being treated like his Dad, who she very often belittles.

I am really grateful for the support on here but I want to make sure I'm not being unfair. Like i said, I do stick up for myself at times and shout back. i tell him that I think he jumps on every tiny thing I do and that it's not fair to demand apologies all the time. He tends to say "I know you and I know you will come out of this mood after a few days... I will wait until you're ready to apologise." Then, after a few days (or sometimes a few hours), I do apologise. I just desperately want things to return to normal.

"As for where he gets it from, there's absolutely no doubt that it's from his mother. "

If there's no doubt about that then it's more likely to be learned behaviour rather than a hormonal imbalance. You're really not being unfair, you are being subjected to bullying. It's not an 'error' to apologise for things you haven't done in the face of bullying, it's a form of self-defence.

If you check out this link I think you will recognise your husband's behaviour in some of the points. Specifically, 'verbally abusive', 'blames others', 'instils fear' and 'controls you through emotions'. There may be others.

Where zzzzz got that from is beyond me OP.
No-one else on here read that in your OP.
You don't need to defend yourself.

He sounds vile and abusive and it's not affecting your son.
He needs to 'admit' to having a problem before you are going to get anywhere with this.

His verbally abusive and aggressive and it's now escalating to physical abuse and violence.
Please do NOT put up with it.
He needs to move out and get himself some help.
Not YOU! YOU do not get the help sorted out, he does.

It might be a good idea for you to contact Womens Aid to discuss what is going on. They can help you recognise what this is and help you.

Hi OP,

I haven't read all of the thread but I've read enough of it to resonate and I just wanted to say, don't let your theory that his "hormones" may be to blame for his behaviour make you feel guilty enough to stay.

I can identify, I wondered whether my STBXH was abusive, thought he was borderline (the wise women on here told me he was). I was unhappy and wanted to leave but couldn't bear the thought that it might be because of a depression and emotional intimacy issue he said he had. I thought, as his wife, it was my duty to help him through it and stand by him.

But a counsellor (who wouldn't counsel me at the same time as X because she thought it WAS abuse) helped me see...

That sometimes there ARE reasons for why people are the way they are, but that doesn't excuse it and it doesn't change the fact that it is them doing these things to you. And actually, it is very hard to change a person even if they have reasons. They have to really see what they are, and really want to change it and then work very hard at it.

My Ex tried for about three months and then he realised it was actually much too like hard work and he didn't really "get" it anyway. He was lovely half the time so what was the problem?

Life is much too short. If your H did sort a hormonal issue out, what if it came back? And your children were older and you were more ground down and weaker. That's why you need to let him get whatever help on his own and if he does great, but if he doesn't you haven't wasted anymore of your life.

Thanks Cogito - I have looked at a few links like that. They always leave me feeling unsure, and unfair on him, because there are some points that definitely don't apply. He doesn't stop me from seeing friends or family, for example. We both have evenings out with our friends. There is something of an imbalance there (which, to be honest, does bother me a bit) because he gets very angry with me for asking him to let me know roughly what time he will be home. He says that I'm controlling (at this point, I wonder whether I fit the description of an abuser myself and I get really confused!!!). When I go out, I'm always back by around 11pm as I find it very hard to get up and be a good Mum the next day if I'm tired or hungover. It's a compromise that Im very happy to make. But he quite often stays out until past midnight, and most recently it was 3am. I find it difficult to sleep until I know he's home which is why I ask him to let me know if he knows what kind of time he'll be back... Just so I know whether I'm likely to see him to say goodnight, or whether I should go to bed and try to sleep. He absolutely hates being asked that question. So I end up refraining from asking it, and then finding the ability to sleep worse than ever.
Is this just life?? Is this just inevitable when I'm a SAHM and he has entertaining to do at work which he's not always in control of? It;s another example of something which starts arguments... he gets very angry with me for asking questions about a night out, and I defend my right to ask when he might be home. Normal or not??

I just feel like i have no idea any more.

I also want to say something about his temper with the kids. He does sometimes shout at our eldest quite unfairly. Last week on holiday he yelled "SHUT UP - YOU HAVE NOTHING IMPORTANT TO SAY" (immediately making him cry) when he was stressed about trying to find a parking space. Our son was saying "Daddy Daddy" repeatedly in the back of the car, wanting to ask a question. He later apologised to our son and said he shouldn't have shouted. So I think he's aware of his temper, and no doubt feels bad. I also find that the kids can test my patience, but I would never say something like that to my child. H thinks I'm not tough enough on discipline and regularly tells me that our son is better behaved for him than for me.

When you have forgotten what is normal, then it's time to think about getting out. To say to someone you love "I can't sleep properly until you get home, please let me know when you expect to be back for my peace of mind" is not controlling.

My heart just went out to your son. Your H sounds really awful. And entitled. And ridiculously selfish.

And abusive

I thought you might say something like there being points that don't apply. Bullying is a broad church. You don't have to tick every box on a list like the one I linked to in order to understand you're being bullied. Any one of those points in isolation would be unacceptable behaviour. That you're enduring four or five out of ten is significant and it doesn't actually matter than the rest don't apply.

Those nights out you mention, for example, illustrate manipulative bullying in a nutshell. When you go out you're home at a reasonable time because you want to be sharp the next day. You think you're making a sensible choice in order to be a good Mum... and you are in part.... but I think you're also frightened of the consequences of making a mistake the next day i.e. abuse from your husband. Asking him what time he'll be back when he goes out is a reasonable thing to do. His response of accusing you of being 'controlling' is unreasonable and excessive and purely designed to intimidate you into silence. And it works. Having now got you on the back foot frightened to even mention it, and knowing you are uncomfortable if he stays out all night.... he stays out all night. He is saying 'I will do as I damn well please'.

I'm sorry OP but this man despises you and he's starting to turn the same aggressive bullying tactics on your children.

It is not inevitable
It is not normal
It is not tolerable

Thank you for bearing with me. You've just said a lot that makes sense. I AM scared of how he will treat me if I'm hungover. I'm definitely not 'allowed' to stay in bed recovering from a hangover the way that he has done (many times). No matter how much I've had to drink (it's usually two glasses) you can bet he'll make a comment the next day. I try to ignore it.

The worst example was when he came back from a stag do in Las vegas, and went to bed for the next 24 hours. When he emerged, he was moody with both me and our son. By contrast, I came back from a hen do weekend in Spain and immediately took over with our son, knowing how stressed he'd been to have been left with him for the first (and only!) time. I'm planning a hen do at the moment, and he is highly unlikely to be left with the kids while I'm gone because my parents have offered to help. I want them to help because it'll mean I can have a nice time while I'm gone, without worrying about his stress levels. But as I type this, I'm thinking "but he DOES work full time and I don't!!!." I still wonder whether I'm unfair to expect him to cope the way that I can, when I don't have to work any more.

I wish someone could tell me which scenario would affect our son the worst (and our daughter eventually, but she's only a baby). It;s not like leaving him would change his nature - it could very feasibly make it a LOT worse. He's capable of being truly nasty and striking to hurt. I wouldn't trust him to be mature around the kids - I'm sure he would try to put poisonous things into their heads about me, and I would hate him for that. How can you ever safeguard against that?

You can only work with the facts at your disposal. It is very well documented (and MN-ers who have been there will testify) that growing up in a household where there is abusive behaviour present damages children in many different ways from behavioural problems, MH issues to difficulties forming good relationships of their own in due course. You are unable to protect your DCs at the moment from his behaviour.

It is also well documented that children suffer when parents split, particularly if it is done acrimoniously and the children are given low priority or treated as an afterthought.

You know for certain, therefore, that the status quo is damaging and must be rejected. You suspect that post-split, he would treat your children as badly or worse than he does now. So you have to anticipate that and mitigate against it. Womens Aid 0808 2000 247 can recommend solicitors that specialise in divorce cases where there is domestic abuse present. They can give you advice.

You can't safeguard against the comments he may say about you, I'm afraid.

You will just have to do what I do and correct any outright lies and explain simply that daddy is mistaken when he told them that, then put forward a simplified explanation so they can decide for themselves. (I've tried not doing the last bit, but it just led to a million questions.)
Resist all temptation to retaliate and slag him off in return.
THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT!!

I swear my tongue has permanent teeth marks in it these days but he is their daddy and I won't go there even if he will.

And yes, I do hate him for it.

Please do be careful in covering your tracks while exploring your options, don't let on that you might be intending to leave with the children. This can be a very dangerous time. Get your ducks in a row first.

Sorry to be so gloomy.

Good luck my dear.

Can I just point out that I went back to work because it is far easier than taking care of children full time. I couldn't have been a good stay at home mum. I'm not sure where you get the idea that you have it so easy. Unless you have a full team of staff - cook, cleaner, nanny, driver etc.

wallypops - I don;t have a full team of staff (!), but I am luckier than most because we have a cleaner, who also does all the ironing. I cook all the meals and I do all the kid-related stuff, which I enjoy (but I'd be lying if I said I enjoyed the mealtime chaos!!). I am still BF'ing too, which obviously limits the time I can ever take for myself. But I am in a better position than my H. His job is genuinely stressful, he gets up VERY early every day and commutes, and he also helps with bath time every day. In many ways I think he does more than most Dads.
I will be honest - I don;t think I can leave. I can't do that to my family (I worry about how much my parents would worry about me and the kids, and how my children would suffer from his behaviour if we left). I think my son is affected by the arguing (although it's been infrequent over the past year due to the illness.. it remains to be seen whether it now returns to previous patterns), but not AS affected as he'd be if his life was suddenly turned upside down by Mummy and Daddy splitting up. Obviously I don't want my kids to witness the arguing and shouting and verbal abuse, so I end up thinking that I need to suck this up a certain amount and just let him get his way, apologise when he demands it, and then concentrate on enjoying life when he's not around (i.e. during the day every day!). And of course there ARE nice times when he's around too. In the big picture, the kids are with me way more than they're with him, so I should be able to influence them more than him.

Surely there's a scenario where staying with someone like this could be better than giving up?? I always think he'll be better when he retires and manages to relax... I think a lot of his behaviour is a combination of the hormones + his upbringing, but it's compounded by stress levels. When the stress is gone, I think he will be able to work on himself.

I know i sound pathetic, I just want to be cautious of having an unrealistic attitude towards leaving. I think it could make us all feel worse.

"Surely there's a scenario where staying with someone like this could be better than giving up?? "

It's not 'giving up' to safeguard your self-respect, mental health and the wellbeing of your children. Sucking it up and taking the punishment is giving up. Playing happy families all day and then 'Shush let's all tiptoe about and not upset Daddy' when he comes home is demeaning.

Surrender your self-respect to a bully believing his attitude will change for the better and you are going to be seriously disappointed. Don't you get it yet? Whatever you do, however perfect a wife you try to be, he will not be satisfied because it suits him to keep you anxious to please. That's the game.

As for hoping he gets better when he retires? Just how old is this guy?

I know what you're saying, I;m just stuck.
The retirement thing... he's not old, but it links back to my point about money. He could retire now if he wanted to, but realistically i think it'll be another 3-5 years. He earns a lot. But with that comes very high stress. I wonder how much of the situation I'm in is unique because of the nature of his life (how much he's achieved, how much he's earned... but the pressure and stress that has come with it). Or maybe people like him are always narcissistic personality types?!! It's hard to leave someone in his position because I'll look like a gold digger won't i?? It will be SO easy for him to paint that picture - poor him, who worked so hard for us while I swanned about and left my job, and then one day I left him because he was stressed. I would feel sick at what people would be likely to say about me (and how that would affect my children, who are totally innocent). The kids and I are happy most of the time, and he can be LOVELY. But when his temper comes out, it's awful.
I just honestly can't be sure that leaving is the right thing to do. I also doubt my own ability to cope - I wonder whether I'd end up depressed or having a breakdown at how my lovely life had disintegrated through my own choices. Obviously the reality isn;t 100% lovely, but other people certainly see it that way. Amongst our friends and family people make comments all the time about how lucky i am. So I really doubt myself sometimes - i.e. surely everyone has something in their lives that's not perfect!

None of that matters though.

Try and brush it all aside and ask yourself, just you,...are you happy? after everything that he does, do you still want to be with him? what about you and your life? In ten years time, if you are still there, what will it be like then? You'll probably depressed anyway.

Your friends and family will know, because you will tell them, if you want to.

Personally, I know a lot of people who knew us then probably think he worked so hard to provide for us and I left him when he was depressed. That is far from the truth. But I am happy now.

People never know what goes on behind closed doors. They will always speculate, but the people that matter will be there.

My stepfather was very generous with money, allowed mum to have friends (within reason), but as Cog says above, it served him well to keep her in a permanent state of anxiousness. It was fucking exhausting. It will become fucking exhausting for your children, because they'll learn to modify their behaviour so as not to push his buttons. And they'll modify it drastically, depending on the day, and his mood.

And then, when you've done all the placating and kow towing that you can muster, it won't be good enough. Because he'll have had a shitty day at work. Or because someone else will have pissed him off. You'll feel the atmosphere change and you'll pray for the blow up to happen sooner rather than later, because you can't stand the waiting. And you'll just want peace. But you'll never quite have it.

^^ sorry, that's projecting!

But does it sound familiar?

Oh...and one more thing.

When he is being 'lovely' (which, let's face it, is just kind, considerate and generally a good egg.....), you're pathetically grateful, and attribute such a disproportionate amount of kudos to the fact that he is being lovely, that you forget that being lovely (kind, considerate...etc) is the default position for most couples.

Yes it does sound familiar. I definitely feel like that when he's had a bad day. He quite often snaps at me when I ask how his day has been - I know the 'bad' tone of voice right away. But if I'm nice and try to help him, he does sometimes calm down and later thanks me for helping him through it... so it doesn't always end in a row. It seems random sometimes, and no doubt very much linked to how helpful I feel like being. If I said "well don't take it out on me", the consequences would be dire. That's one thing that is a certainty. I wouldn't dare say something like that.

On the flip side, I'm accused of being moody a lot by him. That's how this post started. I just have to wonder if I AM moody myself (i.e. after a hard day with the kids) and whether he actually feels very similar to me?? Is it possible for someone to find you moody when you're not aware you're being moody? He can never say I've actually said anything mean - I don't do that. But he'll tell me that I'm being distant/ self-absorbed/ seem quiet and annoyed. So your comment about the atmosphere changing could be something that he might grab as his own feeling! I just want to be so careful not to be one-sided.

You have no control over what he may or may not say about you.

You have no control over what other people may think of you.

My exH was an abusive prick to the point that social services were involved. He was also a workaholic, long hours, high status professional job.

I very much doubt he has told anyone the truth about why we separated. In fact I know he has spread lies about me locally which have led to malicious gossip.

I am still happier without him. It was still worth it leaving him because hand on heart I know that I have done right by the children.

Don't live your life in fear of what might be. Be strong, take control, do what is best for you and your children.

Truthfully my dc had a hard time coping with the separation. I prepared them by explaining the difference between friendship love, family love and romantic love. I made sure they knew that romantic love could change but that family love is very strong and forever. This was a few weeks before we told them, together that we were separating. We kept the discussion brief and matter of fact, then I had pre-planned to take the dc out for the day and do a really fun activity to take the pressure off and distract them.

Sometimes they still get a bit sad now (2yrs on) but not very often. Their family has got bigger, they get more holidays, two Christmases etc their are "benefits" from their point of view (they were 4 and 6 when we separated)

Bring some joy back into your lives and let your dc see their mummy is a happy mummy.

So he will retire in 3-5 years. The kids will be 3.5-5.5 and 7-9 years old then. He will then be in the house full time.

What if this behaviour isn't down to the stress of his job and this is just how he is??

So you will walk on those eggshells until then and hope for the best?

If you do, by continually biting your tongue and apologising etc when YOU KNOW you have nothing to apologise for, you will
a) compromise yourself until you no longer recognise who you are and
b) resent him for that AND his behaviour.

There is good advice on here and I suggest you follow it. Get some advice, legal and otherwise and when you have a strategy (or two) in place you need to have a frank discussion with him about how you feel. Perhaps he can change his behaviour with help, I don't know.

Your kids will be mostly oblivious to it all just now, but that won't last long, let me assure you. I'm separated 3 years (not my choice but he did me a favour tbh) and my 7yo has only really had the reality of the situation sink to him in during the last year. Do you really want them growing up thinking the current situation is normal?

Whatever you decide, good luck x

P.s. What Rain said too!

"surely everyone has something in their lives that's not perfect!"

Of course we do. Every life has bumps in the road. But there's a massive difference between 'not perfect' and 'abuse'.

Many people earn a lot of money, work long hours and are subjected to high levels of stress and can yet manage to do all of that without exhibiting the behaviour your husband shows towards you, your DCs and others.

If it feels like I and others on this board are putting pressure on you to LTB then I apologise. Your story is sadly very familiar and the prognosis isn't good. There's a kind of grim inevitability about it. Your objections are normal. Your fears are normal. Your way of rationalising the situation, the self-doubt, the semi-apologetic tone, making excuses for him & desperately wanting to find ways to cope ... all normal. Also normal not to want to give up a wealthy lifestyle - shouldn't be underestimated.

Something will eventually happen that will tip the balance. Probably to do with your kids.

"Is it possible for someone to find you moody when you're not aware you're being moody? "

Anything's possible but in the bullying situations you're describing, it's more likely that you're being accused of being moody as a way to put you back into apologetic, meek wife mode. Look how you instantly respond to his 'bad tone of voice' by being extra nice and soothing.... That's how dog-handlers get their dogs to do tricks

Please wake up to this