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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Do men despise women.

817 replies

Loomineer · 14/07/2014 21:04

On another thread read comments about women not realising how much men despise them. It got me thinking how in my relationships I've looked back and thought god. They really despised me.

My best friend is in a relationship where to me her dp treats her like he despises her.

I am not a man hater by any means. I just wondered what other people thought.

OP posts:
Sabrinnnnnnnna · 24/07/2014 21:14

Yes, that's what I meant, Offred. I meant women don't have equality/full human rights - but the carrot of 'male protection' is held over us, as some sort of consolation prize.

And yet, again and again, we find we don't even have this mythical 'male protection' a lot of the time. It was the Captain's decision on the Titanic to put women and children first - this was/is not standard on sinking ships.

NeilJames -Men do not go off to war and leave their women and children 'protected'. Women and children suffer horrendously in war situations - violence, rape, civilian bombing, famine and so on. Try looking beyond the 'trenches' and the UK's experience of war here - women and children in war zones suffer horrifically.

neiljames77 · 24/07/2014 21:18

I'll admit that I do treat women differently to men. I tend to moderate my language if a woman is present. I go to the bar to buy drinks, pay for dinner etc. I don't believe that means I despise or demean women. It's just the way I was brought up. It's a different perspective or point of view than some of you have. Or is that not allowed.

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 24/07/2014 21:20

Not when it involves the subjugation of another class of people, no.

VFXdad · 24/07/2014 21:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Offred · 24/07/2014 21:59

I'll admit that I do treat women differently to men. I tend to moderate my language if a woman is present. I go to the bar to buy drinks, pay for dinner etc. I don't believe that means I despise or demean women. It's just the way I was brought up. It's a different perspective or point of view than some of you have. Or is that not allowed.

I would say that's a pretty typical view from a lot of guys who consider themselves to be not part of the problem because they feel they are being nice.

"It's a different perspective" what is it based on?

Feeling you are being nice doesn't mean you aren't demeaning women. Demeaning women is allowed, in fact it is often desirable, it's the fact it is desired, tolerated and allowed that many of us are complaining about.

That does not mean a man can never buy a drink or dinner without being called a misogynist. It means a man who believes women should be bought drinks and dinner because they are women is a misogynist.

twindad76 · 24/07/2014 22:11

What about professional sports ? "He hits it like a girl" would be a pejorative term for any tennis player or golfer. But if women really competed equally with men in sports then they would have a huge disadvantage. Athletics, football, tennis - etc etc, they would all be dominated by men to almost the complete exclusion of girls.

Most men however regard women correctly as their intellectual equals if not their physical equals.

Offred · 25/07/2014 07:52

Not sure what the relevance of sports is?

Equality doesn't mean applying the same rules to everyone it's about positions and advantage/disadvantage. Inequality in sports is about the very different status/pay of male and female footballers for example.

Offred · 25/07/2014 07:53

And there isn't really a reason why we can't have mixed sex football teams tbh.

OhILoveAGoodNameChange · 25/07/2014 08:22

they would all be dominated by men to almost the complete exclusion of girls.

at elite levels, men do out complete women at most sports. not however ultra distance running.

but how is this relevant to the rest of life? surprise surprise most people do better at a sport if they are fit and practice..... so why is sex given some overriding importance as to performance in sport, which is then extrapolated to the rest of life?

because its convenient argument for men to make. incidentally who are also conveniently blind to the vast numbers of ordinary and elite women who are faster, higher, stronger than they as individuals are.

the best man is generally better than the best woman/women. but most men are Mr Average and large numbers of women can and do out complete them.

surely this is more relevant to wider society?

Keepithidden · 25/07/2014 08:29

I kind of agree with neiljames on this one, although I disagree with his conclusions. I tend to alter my behaviour around women too. Looking back to how I've behaved throughout my life I recognise a lot of what I've done is misogynistic, and I still find myself reacting to situations differently depending on the perceived gender of those involved. It's something that I consciously try to avoid, but I'm only too aware that my thought process would betray me if anyone is given to telepathy!

Stuff like chivalry, mansplaining and that kind of thing, while I can say with a clear conscience that I did do it with good intentions, those intentions were skewed, and have been skewed since I've been raised in a patriarchal society. It is only since I've had a bit of awareness rasing that I recognise my behaviours and seek to adress them. It's weird being brought up to value equality, then realsise that it doesn't really exist and that I was part of the problem.

Anyway, does this all mean I despise women. Not on a personal level, no. There are an awful lot of men who I believe do. There are even more who fall into the mould I occupied/occupy. At a population level I'm not sure I'd use the word despise, it implies a conscious decision, but there's certainly an element of fear, jealousy and dislike (hate?) that is displayed to all women by pretty much all men, whether at an unconsious or conscious level.

This kind of debate often falls down due to the arguing over semantics, i.e. what does "despise" mean, and are we all using it in the same way? Also what do we mean by "Class"? I've tended to view it as analogous to "population", not applicable to individuals. I don't think there's any other way of dealing with the patriarchy really, it is impossible to campaign for Feminism on an individual level.

Keepithidden · 25/07/2014 08:35

Slightly OT, but the sports thing is quite a useful example of where things go wrong and why assumptions are so improtant. The underlying thinking is that women are weaker, less able, than men so the two are seperated. This is depsite the fact that most sports involve more skill than raw power, something that is irrelevant as far as gender is concerned.

You only have to look at the smaller football players, Scholes, Zola, Carlos et al to realise that there is no reason why men and women can't play football together!

thedancingbear · 25/07/2014 08:40

What about professional sports ? "He hits it like a girl" would be a pejorative term for any tennis player or golfer. But if women really competed equally with men in sports then they would have a huge disadvantage. Athletics, football, tennis - etc etc, they would all be dominated by men to almost the complete exclusion of girls.

Oh ffs. You are Alan Partridge and I claim my £5.

twindad76 · 25/07/2014 08:56

Well, the point i was making is really about respect. There is less interest generally in womens sports which is why they get paid less, there is less interest from men because I think they are "not as good at it". Womens' football is a good example, it seems more women go and watch mens games than womens ones, why do men not go and watch womens games in large numbers ?

thedancingbear · 25/07/2014 09:06

You want a serious answer to that? It's because the FA banned women's football in the 20's and it never recovered commercially. Prior to that, women's football actually drew pretty big crowds.

This from Wikipedia:

As well as hosting Everton games, [Goodison Park] has been the venue for an FA Cup Final and numerous international fixtures, including several in the 1966 FIFA World Cup. The record for the highest attendance in women's football was set at Goodison Park in 1920, which stood for 92 years until 31 July 2012. This game's high attendance resulted in women's football being banned by the Football Association for 50 years as they felt it threatened the men's game.

VFXdad · 25/07/2014 09:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

twindad76 · 25/07/2014 09:16

You want a serious answer to that?

What about the serious answer ? Other than the "it's all mens fault"

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 25/07/2014 09:33

This game's high attendance resulted in women's football being banned by the Football Association for 50 years as they felt it threatened the men's game.

Interesting. Men* can feel incredibly threatened by women's successes.

*Not All Men Wink

Offred · 25/07/2014 09:36

"It's all men's fault" is a common deliberate misinterpretation of discussions of gender inequality. I don't think anyone has really said it is the fault of men. We are discussing patriarchy, which women are complicit on as well as men.

Keepithidden · 25/07/2014 09:47

VFXdad - I agree re:football, not my bag.

But with sport it isn't always fastest/strongest, and I would argue in most instances, particularly sport games (football, rugby, cricket etc.) it is skill and application of speed/strength that is primary. There could easily be a level playing field in most sports except stuff like athletics/short distance running and the like.

Offred - It is mostly men's fault though. As a class. NMN, NOM, usual caveats apply etc... Although I understand completely why it is so unhelpful to all concerned to say that bluntly and without explaining the nuance involved.

thedancingbear · 25/07/2014 10:11

^You want a serious answer to that?

What about the serious answer ? Other than the "it's all mens fault"^

You can prove anything with facts, can't you?

twindad76 · 25/07/2014 10:18

There could easily be a level playing field in most sports except stuff like athletics/short distance running and the like.

Whereas this might be true of "games" like darts and snooker, it is palpably false in the vast majority of sports. I think perhaps gymnastics is one exception I can think of there ? Anyway if men and women competed equally, then i expect what would happen is that since young boys would clearly have more chance of going on to perform at an elite level, they would attract all the investment and interest etc which would be a disaster for women in those sports like tennis, golf, football, rugby, athletics etc etc. This is besides the point to an extent, but someone mentioned earlier that "girly" or "like a girl" is used pejoratively - i think the reason is because it is used in this context to mean physically inferior. I think that's unfortunate but I'm not sure there is anything that can be done about it.

As for the male protection thing, again perhaps unfortunately, men are required to police other men because of their physical superiority, which is what all of this stems from. Men often demean other men who they feel are "weaker" than they are, it's learned from an early age, do women not do the same to an extent ?

thedancingbear · 25/07/2014 10:18

"It's all men's fault" is a common deliberate misinterpretation of discussions of gender inequality. I don't think anyone has really said it is the fault of men. We are discussing patriarchy, which women are complicit on as well as men.

To be fair, Offred, some of the posting on the subject (by women) reads like 'it's all men's fault'. I think some feminists do subscribe to that view, and there are handful of posters on this thread (the minority, and not you) who seem to be here to stick the boot in. I do think this is massively unhelpful. Feminism is not going to 'smash the system'/dismantle the patriarchy on its own - it needs to win hearts and minds, including those of decent men. Man-bashing - and indeed Greer's 'men despise women' quote (when she actually meant to say nothing of the sort) move things backwards, not forwards, imo.

VFXdad · 25/07/2014 10:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Keepithidden · 25/07/2014 10:25

twindad - Why is palpably false? I gave an example of why I thought it wasn't, i.e. the presence of smaller less weak players in team sports. There is no obvious reason why women cannot compete with men in most sports other than tradition/misogyny.

The investment aspect of it is another part of the misogynistic set up of professional sports so could probably do with it's own thread!

I disagree about the "like a girl" thing. It is easy to justify with things like "because they're weaker, physically smaller" etc. but ulitmately it's not really true in most cases and just denigrates the gender to the rest of society.

Keepithidden · 25/07/2014 10:28

Do you mean male team v female teams? Or all mixed? Because I can't see any reason why any of the backs/fly half couldn't equally be male or female. The forwards would more likely be male due to physical size, I guess...

The same as football really, defenders benefit with physical size, midfield and forwards don't nearly so much.

I think these can be extrapolated to most sports TBH.