Questions from a Widower; requesting a female perspective please

[BuiltByRoberts]

Hello,

this is not my first use of Mumsnet - I had a user-id a long time ago but it's been lost to the mists of a fuzzy brain. This is a long post so bear with me please as really I really need to read some words from a female perspective.

I was with my wife for over two decades and she died a few years back. She meant the world to me and her passing left the most enormous void. Some time ago I started a new relationship and it has been at times a very difficult and challenging thing for both of us.

I try and see things from my new partner's perspective in terms of 'moving forwards', but at times I feel that my past life with my wife is being pushed away from me - that though life needs to be lived in the present and the future planned for, I feel at times that I am being asked to choose between her and my wife.

For example, the anniversary of my wife's birthday means a great deal to me, as does our wedding anniversary and most obviously the anniversary of her death causes me great pain and sadness. I find myself mourning alone - that I cannot express my feelings and thoughts out loud. My new partner is well aware of my moods and thoughts around these times, but it has very much become the elephant in the room.

I am curious to know the views of others in terms of loss. I have never once compared my new partner with my wife - that would be ridiculous and cruel, but my wife will always be a huge and defining part of my life.

So, within the balance of what might be considered to be a 'healthy relationship' where does my 'past life' fit. I will not, cannot and would never dream of 'forgetting about her', yet at times I feel that I am being asked to do just that.

I appreciate a different perspective on this.

BBR >40

Hi Built. You've asked if it's cruel or unfair to be with someone new and still be sad at the loss of another. My answer is absolutely not.

My oldest friend killed herself some years ago, and her fiance was the one who found her. After much suffering he met his lovely wife a year later who has supported him through his grief more than I will ever know. They invited me to their wedding reception, which was sad (for me) but happy too. I know how much he loved my friend, and that he still loves her memory. He deserves to be happy for his own sake; bluntly, my friend's life has ended, but his hasn't.

You explain yourself very well.

Maybe on the one hand you are not yet ready for this new person in your life- or any woman- and maybe she is not the right person anyway?
Being undemonstrative when you are a touchy-feely person is not a good match when it matters so much to you, is it?

You seem to feel some loyalty to her- the way you refer to her as 'your partner' rather than a girlfriend, or whatever, and I wonder if you are also struggling with the idea of not being able to get out of this relationship now you are well and truly in it.

How old are both of you, by the way, if we can know?

Did you ever live alone before you were married?
Some of your post implies that you cannot manage solitude very well. This might mean you are rushing into finding a replacement for your wife rather than getting used to being on your own, making new friends, living a bit without being in a committed relationship. Is this a possibility?

The other thing as other posters have alluded to is that many of us have lost someone we loved, without them dying.
I had my fiance break off our engagement. To say I was devastated is an understatement. He'd been my best friend etc for years too. I did eventually date again, had a couple of long term relationships ( one for 5 years) before I met DH, but for a long time I was comparing all the men I met with the ex fiance. I will never forget him and although circumstances broke us up, he will always be in my heart.
I don't have the 'loyalty' factor that you have to your wife, but I kind of appreciate what you are saying.

It's perfectly normal to think of your wife and grieve for her even when you with someone else.

Someone ( a psychologist ) gave me an analogy of love: our love is not a piece of cake that is divided into ever-smaller parts depending on how many people receive it, love is like a river which flows round everyone who stands in its current. It doesn't diminish the more it's given.

Your love for your wife doesn't diminish just because you have chosen to spend time with someone else - there is room in your heart and life for both.

I still think you need to ponder over whether this woman is the 'right' woman though.

BuiltbyRoberts I would urge you to undergo some counselling for your grief. Grief in itself takes many forms of expression and feelings and also timeframes. Hopefully it will help you to process your feelings and where you are now.

I get the feeling that what you're missing is your new partner joining you in your grief and that is unfair to her. I'm trying to think how I'd feel in her position and whilst I admire a man who's known and been faithful to true love, I think I'd also feel a sense of rejection. It sounds as though your sense of disconnection is also being picked up on by her and so it's a vicious circle. It also sounds as though you're holding back from her, probably out of a sense of guilt? Would you think that was fair comment, or do you feel that you are two different types with a gulf between your physical and emotional outlets?

Please don't let her feel that she can never live up to your first wife. I do believe that you can love two people equally, but differently and perhaps you need to learn to embrace both loves, the love you had and the love you have now which isn't the same, but should still be treated as equally special. If you find that hard to process think of the love we have for our children who can be very different from each other, but all loved equally and in the ways they need.

I'm so sorry for your loss and admire your seeking opinions, but think in this case one to one counselling is definitely the best way forward for you.

Pinkfrocks the river analogy is a good one

The phrase "love of your life" was used earlier but even a wonderful relationship would not stop you from needing to be with someone again.

Don't be rushed into making more of a commitment you ever feel ready for.

Perhaps it's a lot to ask your new partner to cope with. You might have waited until you met a widow to go out with. But then there might as easily be two shades in the corner of the room.

Your new partner had a choice at the onset, "Date BBR or not". She knew you were a widower but I doubt she views you as "my man friend the widower" just a guy she's had the good fortune to meet, an appealing partner. You didn't fall into her clutches nor did she do you a favour by taking you on - you were and are two adults making informed choices.

Maybe you still circulate amongst friends you and your wife had? Do you still live in the same house? Your new partner is just that - new - but whereas every new partnership involves to some extent fitting in with another person's world, she is up against the ex who didn't voluntarily leave and who will always have a special place in your heart. That's not to say she won't hold a special place either on her own merits.

Talk to her, be open and honest. If she's dissatisfied she can say so and so can you.

built - your last post was so heartfelt and moving. I really feel for you x

Is it unfair? Only your new partners can tell you that really. I think it would be important to explain how you feel, and allow her to make that decision. Because the feelings you are expressing are going to take time to work themselves out. People do start new relationships after bereavement but maybe the new relationship allow themselves to grow around and within the old ones?

Hen yes it is a great analogy. I was told it by a psychologist when I was doing some work/ research around parental love - how to explain to the child that they are not going to receive less love if mum has another child.

OP I have no experience myself but a few months ago Good Housekeeping did a feature on widowhood where they spoke to several widows and they all coped in different ways.
One statement that stuck in my mind from one of them was this. "Ive found that both sadness and joy can co exist in the heart at the same time"

Thanks again for your replies. I am in my mid forties and I met my wife when she was twenty one, me twenty.

I have paused many times today to reflect upon these messages and will no doubt do so for many days more. It has helped me no end and for you all taking the time to reply in your busy lives is much appreciated. Thank you.

I am coming to realize, more and more that I need to address my inner feelings on my wife's death. My relationship with her family is now non existent. This is down to me as they cause me no end of tourment with their interfering and manipulative actions. I knew that I would go through life post her death without them - in fact my wife made it pretty clear that it was nmore than likely to be the case. I have close friends and I have some wonderful people I can call upon at any time should I need them - the three am friends who would drop what they were doing if I asked them.

This is the first time since having my new relationship that even in a small way I have given myself 'permission' to reconcile both having loss and someone new in my head at the same time, and accepting both.

I know that my partner cares for me. I know that she enjoys me as I enjoy her. I look forward to seeing her and being with her and I find both comfort and intimacy in her being here in what was once our marital home and bed. If I let myself be open and accepting, I know I can make space for her and something deeper can come from that. There are bumps in the road that will need addressing and without doubt one of the hardest will be marriage. She wants to marry, she has even laid down a timeframe 'ultimatum'. I don't. We shall see. When I last spoke to her candidly about it, she got upset, wanted to leave and then calmed down and said nothing else. I think she's accepted the status quo for now. I was honest - that I cannot force a want or need for marriage thatdoes not even register on my radar. We shall see. When its good, when we are close, it's lovely. Other times, less so. But that's life and I am both a realist and a pragmatist in life.

I need to think more about all of this and I need to find a way of resolving my grief. That is one thing in all of this that I am becoming acutely aware of.

Is your new partner wanting to have children; is that why she wants to marry? It doesn't sound like you are anywhere near that yet. It sounds to me too like you weren't really ready for a committed relationship in the first place. Are you sure it is the best thing to stay together, for both of you? Maybe her instinct to want to leave was right, but she finds it too hard? It's no good both of you having secret thoughts you're keeping from the other; it won't work in the long term. If you really want the best for her, don't forget that splitting up might (oddly enough) be one way to show it.

Seems like you have no-one to talk to properly about your wife. I'll join the queue recommending counselling. It won't take away the pain, but it will give you a new way to think about it - and just looking the pain in the eye makes it less overwhelming. Have you looked into self-help groups too?

i personally don't think you're ready for commitment yet. i also wonder if you are getting what you need out of the relationship. is she wanting kids? if so, i think you need to have a serious thought as to whether it's fair to continue this relationship.

i also think you are still grieving for your wife. to a certain extent you always will, but it doesn't sound to me like there is much room in your life for a serious relationship.

you sound like a lovely, caring person who wants to do the right thing. i can see why this woman wants you to make a commitment. i just don't see that it's in you at the moment. wrong person? wrong time?

The idea of giving you an ultimatum is very cruel.

Why on earth would she do this?

Is it her biological clock and she wants children?

You have barely had any time since your wife died- 2 years?

Is your new partner scared of being alone?

Does- perhaps- she even share your doubts about your relationship- but sees marriage as a way to cement it and then it will all be 'sorted'?

Does she think that by marrying, you will stop grieving and put your former wife behind you?

Or- does she have doubts but is afraid to leave you as then you would have lost 2 women?

Do you live with her or are you dating?

Personally, if you are a 'couple' it would be better to start your new relationship in a home you jointly chose and furnished rather than her moving into the home you had with your wife.

I'm sorry but I don't think you are ready for another committed relationship yet, but more to the point I don't think she is right for you. Too many 'red flags'!

It seems you two have reached a significant crossroads in thisrelationship. You have conflicting feelings. Shewants marriage, to the extent she is issuing an ultimatum?

Have a cards on the table conversation over the weekend.

It's a little late for me to be peering at the screen and commenting so forgive me for being a bit blunt, but two things have occurred to me since your last post OP.

The first is from the perspective of men I know who were on their own in their 40s, admittedly both because of divorce from twenty odd year marriages, not from bereavement, but still a big shock to their systems. Both are now with committed and long term partners, however, despite both of them being 'engaged' they keep their own homes and don't seem to have any intention to move on and marry. It works for both those couples I think, committed to each other (although not legally and not melding their lives totally) Part of this though is due to issues of blending families and the next generation not being totally accepting, which is causing its own problems.

The other thing that jumped out at me was references to the marital home and marital bed - very sensitive ground for any bereaved person and any new partner. Very, very sensitive.

I was widowed early 2011 and have recently started dating again. He was a lovely man but I broke it off after a couple of months because I realised I was not ready yet to do this. I actually found myself,inadvertently, comparing him to my late DH. So I am now just working on continuing to heal from my loss. I cannot imagine ever sharing the marital bed, indeed I am currently selling the marital home. Whilst your partner does not sound sympathetic I do feel that if you have never been bereaved in such an unfair way ie the person being young it is almost impossible to understand. I have also lost a parent and although awful it was different. The only person you can change is you and perhaps you. need some counselling. Also WAY and CRUISE provide great support. Best wishes.

Do you think addressing the elephant in the room with your DP would help with the intimacy issue? Maybe allow her into your head a little?

Would you go to counselling for your grief but also maybe couples counselling to address these issues together.

My mother died very young and I remember my step mother saying that you can't compete with an angel. Something I think most women would find very hard.

Sorry for your loss.

I don't like the ultimatum. I don't think she really understands that you are still grieving. I think she is taking your hesitancy as some sign that you are rejecting her. I think she should be able to understand your perspective more than she seems to after this length of time as a couple. I think she is being selfish and self centered. Your wife will always be a part of you and her illness and death changed your life in a way that cannot be undone, rewound or papered over.

Nobody should be made to choose, or forced to a crisis where they feel they must say a final goodbye to someone good and life enhancing from the past in order to have a relationship they like or value in the present. It's not fair to expect you to hurry up and get over yourself, 'move forward', or whatever other phrase she uses to express herself here.

I found myself nodding in recognition to your description of being torn or pulled or having to choose. I didn't lose a spouse to death but to divorce, and one of the nails in the coffin of our relationship was put there in the aftermath of the death of one of my sisters. I found in my exH no understanding of my inability to come home from the funeral and jump into life exactly where I had left off. I did not feel I had a soft place to fall in my own home in those days when I felt very bleak and missed my sister dreadfully during every single waking hour. I lived a long way from my family all suffering just like me; Dsis's death came out of the blue in the prime of her life and I was never close to exH's family. Tbh I do not think I would have found any understanding there either; they were the sort of people to whom nothing mattered except the things that happened to them.

I suppose what I am saying is if you can't be your grieving self with your new partner then maybe she is not the one for you. If the person she wants is not the real you, but her version of you, an 'improved' or 'all new' you, then maybe you are not the one for her? My mother didn't always follow her own advice, but she used to say, 'Don't stay with someone or worse, marry them -- in hopes of changing them', and I think that is sound advice. My sister will always be part of my life, and my life was never the same after her death. The person who expected me to deny my sister's life and her death, pull myself together and get back into his life now has no place in my life, ironically, but I still love my sister dearly and miss her.

I agree with others that the ultimatum would make me feel very uncomfortable. Do you feel like she's trying to put an expiration date on your grieving? As if, once the ring's on her finger, all the grieving stops, which could be why she's trying to force the issue so quickly?

I think you need someone who will understand that grieving is a life-long process, and although it won't always be all-encompassing, it's something that requires understanding and compassion - not trying to rush you through it and back into marriage.

I met my DP two years after my DH died (also in his 40s). My DP wanted marriage and was pushing me towards that fairly early on. I wasn't ready for that kind of commitment and we did have some time apart for a while. My DP hasn't been married before and is very keen, while I have never felt the need to marry again. I have recently agreed to marry him as I feel ready to take that step and move forward once again. While marriage for me wasn't at the top of my list, I know it is something that DP dearly wants and I want to do that for him.

I did have counselling after my DH's death, firstly on a one-to-one at the hospice where DH died, then in a small group run by hospice counsellors and finally the hospice recommended a local group for widows/widowers which was mainly a social group. I can't recommend enough the counselling/social group - it helped me so much knowing everyone there had been in the same position, albeit at different stages of grief/loss. We had trips out and meetings approximately once a month. I have made some good friends (men and women) and a few new relationships have been made. If there is anything like that in your area, please go - it's always difficult at first, but they'll make you feel welcome and it's lovely to have support and empathy from people who really know what you're going through.

I hope your relationship works out, it might just be that your partner needs to be a little more patient and understanding and realise that, while marriage is important to her, if she wants to marry you, then she will have to wait until you are ready to take that step, which could be years away yet. If she is happy to stick around until that day, then brilliant, if not, well she wasn't the right one after all.

She doesn't sound right for you anyway, aside from that you're grieving.

You sound guilty and obligated with her. That's not a healthy basis for a relationship. You are not what each other wants and needs IMO. You gave it a go but you're not on the same page, I'm not sure you'll ever be. She wants and needs someone who loves her and only her, she needs to be the love of someone's life. And she's not.

You meanwhile need someone who supports and understands this crucial part of your life but she can't. That's not going to work. IMO it is possible to kind of grow another heart to love someone fully (just as we love all our kids fully) but your lover has to be able to accept that, and she can't.

Don't stay with her because you're lonely eh, it wouldn't be fair to either of you. You haven't led her on, you didn't know how things were going to pan out - which is the same in any relationship.

I am thirteen years on from the death of my precious husband, who truly was the other half of me. It was so difficult to be left with all the love in my heart, but no one to give it to any more. Throughout the pain and the grief, I was always aware of how very lucky I had been, and that it was unlikely that I would find that depth of connection again. I was right, I haven't and I'm not prepared to settle for less. I have watched others jump into new relationships, often because they can't be alone, or because friends or family tell them they should. I can't - won't - do that. My life is very different now. I would never say never, but I'm guided by my heart, and I'm content.

Your heart is telling you something.......listen to it.x.

Sorry that your wife died.
It sounds like your partner is trying to move you on in the hope you might then forget about your wife.
That's never going to happen, she's not being fair to expect it.
It is possible to love after being widowed, there is the guilt attached to having a new relationship, I under estimated that.
It sounds like there is too much angst for this relationship to work and be happy.
I found joining WAY to be a positive step, it helps to know that you're not the only widow.

OP The language you use is interesting and informative. In the same sentence you talk about 'my wife' and 'my partner'. There is of course a tension in both these people existing simultaneously in your life, in the present tense.

Bluntly, you need to have a former wife (and a former marital bed) or a former partner.

I'm of course very sorry for your loss.

Not blunt enough Belloc bcs I don't quite get what you're talking about, too obscure (for me, anyway)

It seems to me Belloc was pointing out there is a difference between 'my wife' and 'my late wife' -- 'my wife' meaning a woman he is currently married to, and 'my late wife' meaning a woman he was married to until her death. A difference between past and present.

Oh still haven't quite got it

And?