Questions from a Widower; requesting a female perspective please

[BuiltByRoberts]

Hello,

this is not my first use of Mumsnet - I had a user-id a long time ago but it's been lost to the mists of a fuzzy brain. This is a long post so bear with me please as really I really need to read some words from a female perspective.

I was with my wife for over two decades and she died a few years back. She meant the world to me and her passing left the most enormous void. Some time ago I started a new relationship and it has been at times a very difficult and challenging thing for both of us.

I try and see things from my new partner's perspective in terms of 'moving forwards', but at times I feel that my past life with my wife is being pushed away from me - that though life needs to be lived in the present and the future planned for, I feel at times that I am being asked to choose between her and my wife.

For example, the anniversary of my wife's birthday means a great deal to me, as does our wedding anniversary and most obviously the anniversary of her death causes me great pain and sadness. I find myself mourning alone - that I cannot express my feelings and thoughts out loud. My new partner is well aware of my moods and thoughts around these times, but it has very much become the elephant in the room.

I am curious to know the views of others in terms of loss. I have never once compared my new partner with my wife - that would be ridiculous and cruel, but my wife will always be a huge and defining part of my life.

So, within the balance of what might be considered to be a 'healthy relationship' where does my 'past life' fit. I will not, cannot and would never dream of 'forgetting about her', yet at times I feel that I am being asked to do just that.

I appreciate a different perspective on this.

BBR >40

[mathanxiety]

Well I don't want to put words in Belloc's mouth, but it seems to me she is saying that if he feels he has a wife (present tense) then there is no room for a partner (present tense). If the presence of his late wife is still a reality for him, then trying to have a relationship with another woman may have been ill advised.

I have been thinking about this thread on and off, and I was wondering if getting a pet might be a good thing for BuiltByRoberts.

[springydaffs]

But he's bereaved so his late wife will be part of his emotional landscape. Always, probably. Doesn't mean he can't have a fulfilling, and full, relationship at the same time. I can't remember how old OP is but this is not unusual in older people.

[mathanxiety]

The partner has been rushing things:
'I try and see things from my new partner's perspective in terms of 'moving forwards', but at times I feel that my past life with my wife is being pushed away from me - that though life needs to be lived in the present and the future planned for, I feel at times that I am being asked to choose between her and my wife.'

And he feels he can't really share with her the part of him that is intertwined with his late wife.

[Belloc]

Bereaved partners are in many ways no different to partners whose other halves have taken the decision to end the relationship. Both must grieve the loss of the relationship, having not wanted the relationship to end.

But some bereaved partners feel it's acceptable to leave their ex wife's dressing gown hanging on the back of the bathroom door, while making love to their new partner in the 'marital bed'. This is not respectful or loving towards anyone and it's no wonder the relationship has descended into a spiral of insecurity, demands and recriminations.

[daisychain01]

Belloc, may I ask, has that happened to you? That isnt a provocative question, my reason for asking is out of empathy if it has.

The challenge with bereavement is that there is no dividing line, no set time or signal when grieving stops, so things like when to remove, conceal or dispose of the loved one's belongings can be a really difficult thing to do. Yes, you could argue the widowed person shouldnt have a new relationship when they are still mourning. But it is not that simple, that mourning process doesnt necessarily just stop, it happens in fits and starts. You can go on and find immense happiness beyond the pain.

I am still grieving the loss of my DH many years after losing him, and Im now in a loving relationship with a man who I care deeply for. I remember one of my first reaction to losing DH was that I donated all his clothes to British Heart Foundation within weeks. It felt like I had to grasp the nettle, take some action to do something, like ripping off a plaster very quickly.

Other people keep clothes and belongings for years, they cant bear to get rid of it. My view was I had lost the most precious part of my world, a few clothes wont bring him back.

Bereavement is and always be a mysterious, inexplicable blend of emotions. It makes us a fully paid-up member of the human race.

[springydaffs]

I don't think they are the same in many ways at all. The marriage that ends in a death would have continued if the spouse hadn't died. It's a pure grief in a way, not mixed with betrayal and a deep rejection. The spouse who left through death doesn't want to leave, doesn't usually choose to die, hasn't rejected the spouse or the marriage. Rejected spouses have to 'move on' to protect their sanity; not quite the same for a bereaved spouse.

[LittleLadyFooFoo]

I'm finding this thread helpful, as someone who is dating a widower. I find my DPs grief is quite erratic. One week he is upbeat and thinking of the future. Another week, he can be sitting at his wife's grave talking to her for hours. I can only be patient and understanding, however, it can be difficult.
I am still trying to overcome rejection from my ex partner and my confidence can at times be low. My widower is actually quite good at boosting my confidence. I think it gives him something to focus on other than his own grief.
I am trying to see our relationship as a valuable friendship, to enable us both to move forward at a pace that suits is both. Any advice on this thread, I will watch with enthusiasm.

[mathanxiety]

I agree with that Springy.

[Pinkfrocks]

I agree but it also depends on the quality of the marriage and the state of mind of both parties before one spouse dies.

If the marriage was not good, the remaining spouse may feel a combination of guilt and unresolved issues, especially if when the other spouse was ill/ dying they were unable to talk properly and reach some kind of understanding.

On the other hand, if the marriage was poor and maybe the couple were staying together out of a sense of duty, then one of them became ill, the death can be a release and moving on can be easier.

If the marriage was good then again it can work either way- sometimes someone may find it easy to move on, accepting that they had some good years together. other people may feel stuck with their grief and always be looking back, unable to move forward and thinking they will never meet anyone with whom they can have the 'same' kind of relationship.

What I am saying is there is no one-size-fits all.
Grief is a 7-stage process - it's possible to get stuck at any stage ( someone in our family got stuck and it eventually led to their death after decades of grief-initiated MH problems.)

Counselling is helpful but everyone is different and all marriages are different.

[Belloc]

Springydaft - So perhaps it's worse for halves of couples who didn't want their relationships to end in separation or divorce. In that they must grieve the end of their relationships and deal with rejection, with the blows to self-esteem that flow from that. And actually you can't know relationships that end in the death of a spouse would have continued forever, it's statistically perishingly unlikely. Even unhappy and difficult marriages can end in death. As can happy marriages end in divorce.

You need to be emotionally present in relationships for them to work. It isn't demanding for a new partner to expect that of someone.

[Pinkfrocks]

Bereaved partners are in many ways no different to partners whose other halves have taken the decision to end the relationship. Both must grieve the loss of the relationship, having not wanted the relationship to end.

Really?

Both have to grieve, yes. But the partner who is left after a divorce has to live with the possibility that their ex will go on to form new relationships. There is a sense of failure , maybe guilt, and a lasting scar; something that held so much hope and promise hadn't worked out.

This is different from a widow or widower who is left alone after a death. They may have nothing but happy memories; a double-edged sword- a comfort but maybe hard to replace.

What each of these couples has in common is a sense of loss of control over their lives- the divorced person may not have wanted the marriage to end, the widowed most certainly wouldn't have.

[springydaffs]

OP says he and his wife 'fell in love again' leading up to her death, so it follows that his grief will be focused on keenly missing the one he loved, it takes time for that to work through.

I agree that the bereaved have to, as some point, make the decision to invest in the new relationship, but that doesn't mean that key dates aren't (always?) going to be taken up with remembering the departed. I don't think grief ever goes away.

I could think that keeping the marital bed, and conducting a new relationship in that bed, is tactless, blind; also talking for hours at departed spouse's graveside while conducting a new relationship; but I haven't been in this position, a bereaved spouse, so i'mnot sure what is or isn't 'appropriate'. I've been, am, the ex-wife of someone who died - a very faint connection indeed to the death of a spouse - and key days are naturally remembered very sadly: although we loathed one another at his death, we loved one another once and he was the father of my children. I am aware of the quality of that, the deep sense of loss, the gravity of it, the loved ones left behind, and can only imagine what it must be like for those who have lost a current spouse whom they loved very much. It's a huge thing and would take years (and years) to work through.

[Belloc]

I really doubt the polarised view that widows/widowers have only happy memories and divorced partners have only unhappy memories.

[Belloc]

springy - ah cross posts. I'm sorry about your former husband. It's healthy that you honour the relationship you and he once had.

[Lemonylemon]

OP: You don't say how long ago you were widowed. I am guessing it's about 4-5 years?

Some people aren't really ready to "move on" for want of a much better phrase, until a bit later. It may be that you're not quite there yet.

I can't really advise on what to do about the ultimatum, but I feel that it's very unfair. Like springydaffs says, the grief never really goes away. You learn to live with it - somehow your existence and life after being widowed changes shape around that grief.

There is a forum which may be useful to you - //www.merrywidow.me.uk People there speak from first hand experience.

I was widowed almost 7 years ago and I'm only just starting to feel "myself" again.

[daisychain01]

Its times like this I would really like to sit with a few people and talk through this stuff face to face, so much I can say and compare to the many experiences people are talking about here. Its just my typing speed isnt up to it :-).

Some things I identify with, that are described on this thread (the ups and downs of emotions, the wanting to move forward one day and within a day feeling stuck, scared you'll be let down, the guilt of moving forward). I see it as moving forward not moving on, that feels too harsh.

I agree with the people who say that losing someone you are still in love with is different to a relationship breakdown. They are very different! The gnawing feeling of losing the person you know still loved you is very hard to reconcile, where do you put the love? There is nowhere for you to channel it. If someone leaves you, is unfaithful to you, the love doesn't survive in its same form, they have betrayed you and let you down.

I dont personally buy into the 7 stages of grief, it is too simplistic and theoretical and maybe helpful for a (wonderful) organisation like Cruse to help describe and rationalise the mish-mash of emotions, but I lost count of people who asked me " oo have you gone through the anger phase yet?" And "now just remember you are bound to feel x or y, because its part of the grief cycle, everyone goes through it." No I didnt go through any of that. But maybe thats just me personally.

I genuinely never felt anger, not towards DH nor to life for "doing it" to him or me. I did keep expecting to wake up one day and start punching a wall, just because people told me I should. Maybe my lovely DP helped me through it and stopped me feeling such despair. I wish everyone who has lost a beloved person to have renewed happiness with another person, that is what that person would wish for you - companionship, no loneliness and the ability to laugh again.

[daisychain01]

The loss of control is the really frightening thing. Suddenly after feeling everything was sussed, we knew where we were going, life just kicks you where it hurts and wow, you realise there are some things in life that are totally outside our control.

It is a very humbling experience and made me re-evaluate everything. Life is now too short, too precious to worry quite so much about things that used to be so desperately important. Maybe that's why I thought that commemorating significant dates/anniversaries too overtly was a high price to pay if it meant I could not focus on the present and the future.

Maybe its a fine balance that bereaved people are constantly trying to make...

[hellymelly]

This must be very sad and difficult and I really feel for you. I have a close friend whose wife died suddenly in her 30s, they had been together since their late teens. He has since remarried and had a family, and although he is happy and loves his many small children, there is a strong sense that his first wife, my lovely friend, has had to be pushed aside. Her picture is no longer on his desk, that kind of thing. I think his new wife finds it very difficult and was very jealous when they first met, which means he has had to disonnect from his old life and has also lost contact with his first wife's family, with whom he was previously extremely close, causing them a lot of hurt.
I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a partner to allow you private sadness still, and to want to not lose your old life and your memories, I imagine it would feel horribly disloyal to you if you did so. But perhaps you need to have an old friend or a close relative with whom you can meet and talk about your wife , on her birthday, or when you are sad. I can understand a new partner would have to be very emotionally mature to deal with talking to you themselves, although I think that any partner should support you visiting the cemetary, having time to meet up with friends to talk and remember your wife etc, as long as you don't expect her to be part of that.
Sadly, you may need to compartmentalise to some degree, and have your private memories kept to you and certain close loved ones. I have heard that the best partner for a widower is a good friend of his wife, as then they are grieving together someone they both loved, as this is rarely achievable, then having time away from you current partner to grieve/remember is probably the only way forward.
I am sorry for your loss.

[BuiltByRoberts]

I've been away the last few days and have only just caught up with this thread.

@belloc There is indeed a fundamental difference between a relationship ending and bereavement. I am emotionally present. I am self aware enough to actually know what this means and not just pay lip service to some internet scribbled words.

...

I was lucky enough in this life to experience something very rare - unconditional love. Yes, our relationship had stress points - you can't go through twenty plus years without tensions, but we were close and the bond we had was one of soulmates. There is much more I could write of the love we had and the bond that wound tighter the closer we came to her death. Our wedding took place in a hospital, her death in a hospice with me lying next to her.

I vowed never to have someone else. It tore a hole in my heart to move forwards and still today, in fact,every day I miss the giant presence that she had in my life and the lives of others.true love never dies, it stays within and the hardest thing to do is to know what to do with the feelings of love. The ache of loss, of missing is as nothing compared to the ache of not knowing what to do with arms that want to hold her again and cannot, will never.

When the mind starts to reconcile itself with this, when the mind says yes, there is space to open yourself to something beyond shutting down and being isolated, the mind starts a battle with a can of worms messy, wriggly and covered in crap. The first time I had sex with my new partner I had to buy a new duvet set and sleep in a different room. I had to repaint 'our' bedreeom and buy more linen. I had to change so many of the visual clues and reminders from a life now lost to me.

The conflict of loss is that moving forwards is hugely complex. Loyalty, emotional attentiveness to someone new isn't a binary switch -the brain does not just switch from one person to another, it flips emotions in an instant, with triggers and reminders. The hard part is to learn to juggle love, loss, new and old. The harder part is to remember that you are able to even engage in something new, simply because the person you loved with all your heart and soul, was the defining person in your life who helped you grow into the kind of person who could love again.

I do see things slightly different to a couple of weeks ago. I understand more and accept more that my loss is my loss... That it is somehing that I will need to carry in eternally and express in my way. My new
Partner does understand... To a point. I do realize that I will have to compartmentalize my loss and keep it separate from my relationship. TBO, I'm not sure how that makes me feel. Time will tell.

Thanks for your words of advice and support. It's a hard thing to do to talk about these things. I kissed my wife's cooling lips a few minutes after her death. It was a strange kiss. Cancer took her from me. I realize something else in writing this. I feel cheated,and its the first time I've ever thought or written that. You see, though we were together for many years, we only married shortly before her death; weeks before and with the backdrop of her terminal diagnosis.

It has been quite insightful for me to write this. Still so !much to understand and learn about all if this. Life seems to be multithreaded streams and aspects, some done alone,some together. Such is life :)

[Pinkfrocks]

BBR

That is a very moving post.
I don't know if you will come back and read this but maybe you will.

I was interested to see that you said you vowed never to love again.
Was this a promise you made to your wife? Or was it something that 'clicked' in your head at the time?

I don't know if you have children from that relationship? I suspect not as you haven't mentioned them. But if you have, are they able to help you move forward? Might they encourage you?

If you want an analogy around children - if you have none- when I had a 2nd child I was terrified that I couldn't love them as much as the first. But you do, because they are different and it's never a case of divided loyalties or sharing out the 'cake' of love.

My DH and I discuss if we would marry again if one of us dies (young) and we have each given the other 'permission' to find someone else and each hope the other would. Did you and your wife ever have that kind of chat?

I do understand how divorced and bereavement are different. Having said that I've been abandoned by someone in the past who was my soul mate. I never thought I'd get over it but I did I cannot really compare it to your loss, except that for a long time I was sure that there would never be anyone else. The pain was exacerbated when he married someone else- so the arms that had been around me were around someone else. That hurts- really hurts- and it is still about loss of control of your life.

I don't agree that you need to compartmentalise your life. I think you should in a low-key way be able to remember your late wife even in the company of someone new. I do think that if you end up in a serious relationship then the way to help that to work if to buy a home together because it is very hard for someone to move into the marital home when a partner is widowed. I wonder if selling is an option and it would give you the move forward you might need?

[Spickle]

BBR, when you say you feel cheated, it is a kind of guilt - guilt for not marrying earlier rather than in a hospital because time was short. Guilt also for the future together that you will never have, maybe also regrets for the things in the past which you both never got to do or say. This is all normal. Rather than compartmentalise, think of it as chapters in a book. As one chapter ends, another begins. Yes, your previous life is now lost to you but you will carry fond memories with you into the next chapter and the one after that..... One day you will accept that things happen in life that you can't change even though you would have like to. You may feel guilty that you still have a life to live whereas your late wife's life was cut short, but you have now learned that life is very precious and it is important to treasure each day that you have, and to accept that for a while, guilt will rear its head from time to time.

[Belloc]

OP Of course it's not a binary switch. You've said lovely things about your former wife in death. And you've been unkind about your present partner. You point out that she isn't demonstrative and isn't what you need, and she came about because you were becoming a recluse and you missed close human touch (came about is a weird thing to say). You don't seem to consider her emotional needs at all, it's all about her meeting your needs. It's interesting that you only married when your former wife was certain to be gone from you. And you fell in love with her all over again when she was certain to be gone from you.

It's totally understandable that people can be lost in the fog of their unbearable grief and unavailable. Sometimes for years. Sometimes forever. People are absolutely allowed to take whatever time they want. But it's simply cruel to use unassuageable grief as an excuse for mistreating your partner (to the point that you make her feel insecure and unhappy). This thread seems to be all about you kissing cold lips and your determination to inhabit the heightened emotional state that existed during your wife's illness. It should really address whether or not you love your partner. And possibly your fear of commitment to the prosaic.

Your behaviour honours neither woman and it's no wonder it's causing you difficulty. I'm reminded of that Rufus Wainright song, Hallelujah: "Love is not a victory march, it's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah".

[ravenmum]

Interesting how we all read these posts differently, probably through the goggles of our own experience, as I don't see a man being unkind and thoughtless or making excuses to mistreat anyone. I see a man who is genuinely struggling with a very difficult situation that he didn't realise he wasn't ready for. Someone who doesn't seem to have really tackled his feelings until now, when he feels they are not allowed. And who now find himself between a rock and a hard place, forced either to hurt his new partner (by splitting up or refusing to marry) or, in a probably misled attempt to be kind, to fold up his feelings and tuck them in the back of a drawer.

[Pinkfrocks]

Belloc- it's actually a Leonard Cohen song- heard it first about 40 years back. Sorry but can't quite see the connection to the OP's situation.

[Pinkfrocks]

OP The only thing that I'd add to the post by Raven which I think is an accurate account of how you feel, is that you could try to explain this:

[she]was the defining person in your life who helped you grow into the kind of person who could love again.

Do you mean your late wife helped you love again after a previous breakup? Or do you mean her death has allowed you to love again and move on? I suspect the latter. And you feel guilty that you are allowing yourself to be in a relationship now- you have a sense of loyalty to your former wife.

I wonder if it would help to look at it from her perspective? Would she not want you to love again? Her death was not unexpected, so did you have those conversations about your moving on , in time?

You have had a lot of good advice here- have you had counselling and will youhave more?

To me it seems that you need more time to process your emotions before you are ready for a new relationship.

In the way that people often get into a bound relationship after a divorce, the person is not always the right one- they serve a purpose to heal the wounds, build confidence etc.. You may have to start thinking that this new partner is your 'trial run' into the fresh territory of dating again, but she is not the right person for you long term.