Questions from a Widower; requesting a female perspective please

[BuiltByRoberts]

Hello,

this is not my first use of Mumsnet - I had a user-id a long time ago but it's been lost to the mists of a fuzzy brain. This is a long post so bear with me please as really I really need to read some words from a female perspective.

I was with my wife for over two decades and she died a few years back. She meant the world to me and her passing left the most enormous void. Some time ago I started a new relationship and it has been at times a very difficult and challenging thing for both of us.

I try and see things from my new partner's perspective in terms of 'moving forwards', but at times I feel that my past life with my wife is being pushed away from me - that though life needs to be lived in the present and the future planned for, I feel at times that I am being asked to choose between her and my wife.

For example, the anniversary of my wife's birthday means a great deal to me, as does our wedding anniversary and most obviously the anniversary of her death causes me great pain and sadness. I find myself mourning alone - that I cannot express my feelings and thoughts out loud. My new partner is well aware of my moods and thoughts around these times, but it has very much become the elephant in the room.

I am curious to know the views of others in terms of loss. I have never once compared my new partner with my wife - that would be ridiculous and cruel, but my wife will always be a huge and defining part of my life.

So, within the balance of what might be considered to be a 'healthy relationship' where does my 'past life' fit. I will not, cannot and would never dream of 'forgetting about her', yet at times I feel that I am being asked to do just that.

I appreciate a different perspective on this.

BBR >40

[BuiltByRoberts]

@Belloc. Interesting comments, they gave me pause for thought.


Your behaviour honours neither woman and it's no wonder it's causing you difficulty... If this is what you believe than you may well have read my words but you have zero to scant grasp of any of the issues involved in moving life forwards post bereavement. It's easy to judge and you do it with a broad brushed dismissive efficiency.



... Interesting how we all read these posts differently, probably through the goggles of our own experience, as I don't see a man being unkind and thoughtless or making excuses to mistreat anyone. I see a man who is genuinely struggling with a very difficult situation that he didn't realise he wasn't ready for. Someone who doesn't seem to have really tackled his feelings until now, when he feels they are not allowed. And who now find himself between a rock and a hard place, forced either to hurt his new partner (by splitting up or refusing to marry) or, in a probably misled attempt to be kind, to fold up his feelings and tuck them in the back of a drawer....

Thank you, you have completely nailed my thoughts and feelings. I thought I had tackled many of my feelings - there sure have been plenty of them.

I am the first to say I am full of flaws, insecurities, doubts, failings and all sorts. I am.. human. I accept that and I have learned not to be too hard on myself and others. The thing is though, when you go through an experience such as cancer (and believe me, hers was about as awful and destructive as cancer can get), it leaves you at a crossroads in your life. I know i'm not alone in saying that it causes the mind to create 'pillars of truth', or 'absolutes' in your mind. These form around the time of death and they become both the support mechanism and the boundary around which you live. My pillars were based around the core belief that cancer would not change the fundamental core of who I was - my identity. Yet it has and that bothers me greatly.

Do I honour my love - my potential to be a loving human being in a composite relationship, or do I live with the feelings and thought case as pillars formed at the time of greatest stress, yet the pillars that stopped me falling into the madness of profound loss. I am at a crossroads in life. I understand that.

Thanks for reading. My head hurts now. I need a tea!

[BuiltByRoberts]

@Pinfrocks


[she]was the defining person in your life who helped you grow into the kind of person who could love again.

Do you mean your late wife helped you love again after a previous breakup? Or do you mean her death has allowed you to love again and move on? I suspect the latter. And you feel guilty that you are allowing yourself to be in a relationship now- you have a sense of loyalty to your former wife.

I wonder if it would help to look at it from her perspective? Would she not want you to love again? Her death was not unexpected, so did you have those conversations about your moving on , in time?

You have had a lot of good advice here- have you had counselling and will youhave more?

To me it seems that you need more time to process your emotions before you are ready for a new relationship.

In the way that people often get into a bound relationship after a divorce, the person is not always the right one- they serve a purpose to heal the wounds, build confidence etc.. You may have to start thinking that this new partner is your 'trial run' into the fresh territory of dating again, but she is not the right person for you long term.

...


You are correct in that it is the latter part of your question is the way it is. We did have very frank and open conversations about all sorts and this was one of them. She only wanted me to be happy. That bit she left to me to work out for myself. It's still very much a work in progress and a hard one at that.

[Belloc]

BuiltByRoberts - I took time out of my day to give you my female perspective. Hearing what you want to hear while rubbishing what you don't want to hear isn't perspective.

[Pinkfrocks]

BBR

I don't understand your rather obtuse metaphors about 'pillars', try as I may!

Do you mean that you closed down emotionally in some way to help you get through the experience of your late wife's illness and her death? And that this is not changing so you cannot feel the emotions you want to?

I also don't understand what you mean about not allowing cancer to change you. What did you mean by this?

You appear to be struggling with some very deep thoughts around all of this-perhaps far more than many people in your situation.

I urge you to [more?] counselling because you need to talk in RL to someone trained in grief counselling. From what you have said so far you are still at an early stage of grieving even though your late wife died some years ago now. There is nothing wrong with this but you do sound as if you need expert help to allow you to move forward. You are clearly an educated and intelligent man (I don't mean that patronisingly) and at times your language around all of this is quite effusive and emotional, as if it's still all very raw.

[Pinkfrocks]

Belloc- have a bit of compassion. I'm not the OP but your posts seem rather harsh and not exactly helpful. You can't expect thanks or gratitude for taking time out of your day for posting on an anon forum with your own opinion- no one asks you to.

He hasn't rubbished what you said- he said he didn't agree- and I found your posts breathtakingly insensitive, actually.

Sorry- not wanting a row but you are coming over as a bit precious and hard.

[BuiltByRoberts]

I don't understand your rather obtuse metaphors about 'pillars', try as I may!

Do you mean that you closed down emotionally in some way to help you get through the experience of your late wife's illness and her death? And that this is not changing so you cannot feel the emotions you want to?

I also don't understand what you mean about not allowing cancer to change you. What did you mean by this?

You appear to be struggling with some very deep thoughts around all of this-perhaps far more than many people in your situation.

I urge you to [more?] counselling because you need to talk in RL to someone trained in grief counselling. From what you have said so far you are still at an early stage of grieving even though your late wife died some years ago now. There is nothing wrong with this but you do sound as if you need expert help to allow you to move forward. You are clearly an educated and intelligent man (I don't mean that patronisingly) and at times your language around all of this is quite effusive and emotional, as if it's still all very raw.


I don't think I closed down. I was certainly very open to my thoughts and feelings, but there was a part that was closed off to me. Looking back now I had to - there was so much going on care wise and with the huge set of complications and setbacks in wife's care, that I had to block a great deal of it off, if only to function back in the real world of work and suchlike. In part I learned to 'drip-feed' the worst of the thoughts and emotions linked back to those times back into my life, only allowing myself to experience them when I felt ready to. Some took lots of opening and closing of that particular tap before I could broach the worst of it.

What I mean by the pillars is something akin to a set of defining beliefs. Say for example, you go on a rollercoaster that really scared you and you say 'never again'. No matter who you are with, or where you or, it isn't going to happen. One of my pillars was the 'you can't ever go through this again - it's unbearable'.. which then creates a mental link to 'you can't ever have another relationship again'. When my wife became ill I really did put myself away. I made a conscious decision that no matter what, she would come first and everything that I experienced would be dealt with 'afterwards'. Because of who she was and how we processed, in truth I had to do little of that and my wife made it very easy for me to be me and let me express my thoughts around her death. But the mind also becomes it's own internal editor and stops you saying what you want to say and in truth the daily care of a terminal person with very complex clinical needs meant that we had little time left.

I understand, I am still am in mourning. I get this. But I don't want to spend the rest of my life grieving and mourning. I am being very honest here (is there any other sort of honesty?) when I say that I can't abide the whole counselling thing - it's just not for me and I have tried it and it's not who I am.

One of the pillars that grew from bereavement was 'I will never love another person again. It's too hard and it hurts too much when they die'. It makes me tearful even writing this.


I know people do find love again, but I am inclined to ask another question; What is love after you have lost the person you loved more than any other? Does life allow the space for real unconditional love to grow from grief? Tough question and I think the one that is the key to a different future.

[Belloc]

I'm finding the OP maddeningly insensitive to his current partner. And his mawkishness is insufferable. Counselling is clearly a good idea, but it's no surprise that the OP can't abide the whole counselling thing.

I'm leaving this thread now.

[Pinkfrocks]

One of the pillars that grew from bereavement was 'I will never love another person again. It's too hard and it hurts too much when they die'. It makes me tearful even writing this.

I know people do find love again, but I am inclined to ask another question; What is love after you have lost the person you loved more than any other? Does life allow the space for real unconditional love to grow from grief? Tough question and I think the one that is the key to a different future.

This might seem an inappropriate question but here goes- did you ever love and lose anyone before you met your wife?
You see although I've gone along with the premise that grief and divorce are different, they are not totally different. When I, for example, lost the person I loved in my 20s- he decided he wasn't ready to settle down- I too felt I'd never love again or want to expose myself to that kind of loss. But at some stage basic human needs kick in- you want to be loved, have a sex life and you meet someone else and you have to decide either to stand on the touch lines of life or get back onto the pitch even though you might get another kicking.

You CAN decide 'never again' but then you have to accept what that brings.

You could also say that all life is futile because everyone dies and our death will always impact on someone- doesn't have to be a partner but will be friends, extended family, parents and colleagues.

But does that mean we should avoid life?

Of course people who have grieved can and do find love- all the time! I don't think you should necessarily aim for unconditional love- that is usually reserved for our children. You have to love someone enough but it will never be the same love you had for your wife because the new person is a different person. If you set yourself such an ideal then you are bound to be disappointed. But you can aim for common interests, sexual compatibility, warmth, shared humour etc.

How does this make you feel?

[BuiltByRoberts]

How does this make you feel?...

It is reassuring. I'm not the kind of person to talk to anyone about relationships and this forum allows me the anonymity to express myself in a way I don't feel I can in the real world.

Thankyou for your time Pinkfrocks. Sometimes it takes the words of a stranger to give the mind permission to open up to other thoughts.

In answer to your question regarding loss. I lost my grandparents at ten and it had a profound impact upon my teenage life and in to my twenties. Not a happy time for me. Not at all.

Your words are triggering some deeper thoughts within me - positive ones about the future.

[Pinkfrocks]

But you haven't lost a loved one before- a woman- when a relationship went wrong?

You see, many people have at least 1 awful experience like that in their teens or 20s. If you haven't that could be why you are stuck as you are now. Because when you have lost someone and it wasn't your choice, it still hurts like hell- even though they haven't died. In some ways yours is the 'purer' grief because it isn't tainted with bad feeling over what the person did to you, out of choice. You can move on with happy memories and be grateful for that relationship. As someone else said, think of it as a new chapter.

It's a cliche but there is some truth in the saying 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger'.

You are in fact being 'counselled' on this thread by people asking you questions. Not sure what happened in Rl when you tried it- maybe you didn't click with the person?

[hellymelly]

I haven't lost a husband, so I can't answer from that true perspective. I can answer from my experience of other people I am close to though, and I think that yes, you can have another great, unconditional love. You love the new person in a different way, maybe less, maybe not, but in a different way-just as they are a different person, you would be a different husband with them. From your posts I think you need more time to come to peace with yourself about having another relationship, to allow yourself to be alive and capable of love.

[springydaffs]

Grief takes its time . I commiserate with the fear that it could last forever. Some people get stuck in it, certainly, but the majority move forward, often in surprising ways. It can redefine you in a way.

Belloc, I'm aghast that you would call profound grief 'mawkish'. Please, leave it out.

[LittleLadyFooFoo]

As the 'new partner', I find the best way to support my widower is to give him space and time. Taking things slowly is key to a new relationship after bereavement. We are very compatible in interests, sexually, humour, etc but i realise I am different to his wife. I think it's best to be different then the new love is based on something different. OP, you have the capacity to love greatly, as you speak so fondly of your wife. I think perhaps your DP is rushing you to make decisions you are not ready to make. If she cares she will be patient. In the meantime, open up to her and tell her how you feel. I'm sure you are already doing this.
Poignant dates are difficult for my DP but he celebrates them. I try to honour this and he respects that. In between though, he admits to wanting to make new memories.
Have you thought about keeping a diary? It will help you externalise your thoughts and feelings, recording your highs and lows and giving you the ability to plan things for your future.

[ravenmum]

Why did your grandparents' deaths affect you so deeply, BBR? Were you particularly close for some reason? Did you get much support or a chance to talk about your feelings at the time? Did you have to support others? I wonder if that time might have affected how you dealt with your feelings immediately around your wife's death.

From your description it seems as if you took the entire burden of your wife's death onto your shoulders, not wanting to share with her as you felt she couldn't bear it. That seems rather like the situation you are in now with your present partner, not able to open up in case you hurt her.

If you have only tried one counsellor / flavour of counselling it might be worth looking for someone or something that suits you better. I go to a psychotherapist and feel able to talk to her in just the same way that you are talking here.

[Pinkfrocks]

I agree with Raven.

Without meaning to be unkind, your reaction to your grandparents' deaths seems unusual.

Also your inability to talk to anyone in RL - either friends, family or a counsellor- won't help. often it's only when we hear the words coming out that we begin to have a better understanding of how to manage our feelings. Talking makes it 'real' whereas bottling things up or communicating online is not the same.

[BuiltByRoberts]

@Ravenmum. The GP's deaths affected me greatly because they were the first deaths I experienced. Also (and mainly) as loving and demonstrative as they are (and in that respect I could not have had better role models in parents), they themselves could not handle any of the emotions surrounding death. I took on board the belief that emotions = weakness.

I did have a few relationships as a teenager and a few in my late teens, but my wife was the first and only person I have ever felt that I could just be 'me' with. It took a long, long time to find any sort of resolution to my early life.

It may not come across here in these postings, but I am quite evenly balanced - in that I am live a happy balance between logic and emotion...
except with this.

I did take on a lot of responsibility surrounding my wife's illness and I did it willingly. It was the hardest of times emotionally and there were terrible days of awful things. Yet, I came out of it feeling somewhat resolved in terms of my future direction. Her death and end of suffering was an immense release. The hardest thing you can do in life is stand and watch as cancer does its worst.

What seems odd to me is that the further I progress in life, the more I seem drawn back to a time of seemingly unfinished 'emotional business'.


...


I went to see a counsellor for a few sessions. It made me feel uncomfortable - vulnerable in the way I felt when younger. It took me back to the time of watching my wife's sufferings and it left me feeling at times utterly powerless - even more so than when I went through it; I could handle it when I was going through it for real, but talking about it just dropped me into a world of utter helplessness. It took days to function again after a session. I could not do it anymore. It actually made me feel worse.


...


When I met my new partner I was very open about all of this. She had never dated a widower before - she had not been in a relationship for a number of years. The first few months of our relationship could at best be described as rocky and for both of us there were things to be worked through and boundaries to be established. I can't speak for her, but I do think that for both of us it has been challenging.

The thing is, as I sit here writing this (she is at work), I feel a close bond towards her. It is actually an emotion that is growing stronger the longer we are together.

When I started writing this thread, in my mind I was asking about a dozen questions at the same time. Perhaps the deepest fear I have is that in living now, in the now, I am betraying my wife. This is so hard to explain, it makes no sense at all. But, does sharing your life with someone new mean that you are unfaithful to the memory and love of the one who has died? These thoughts make me very unhappy and so uncertain. They make me want to run - and yes, I know this is full flight or flight and even writing this, my mind is already running. I am scared of living as I fear the greater loss of something already lost. Head hurts.

[Pinkfrocks]

Hi again!

At the risk of being blunt, your experiences before you met your wife put you at a disadvantage in terms of coping alone.
If you had suffered a loss of someone - not through death but by them ending the relationship- you would have, most likely, developed the ability to get back on the horse. You would also have realised that there is rarely just one person in the world for any of us. You can never duplicate a relationship but you can have a relationship that is just as good but different.

Your inability to talk about your feelings and being made to feel emotions= weakness is also a hindrance to your recovery.

Counselling is always painful. It's been described as peeling an onion- taking off layers to see that is underneath- but then recovery begins. It's one of those things where it often has to get worse before it gets better and you should try to accept that as normal.

But, does sharing your life with someone new mean that you are unfaithful to the memory and love of the one who has died? These thoughts make me very unhappy and so uncertain

No, of course not.
No one can take away the memories. If you decide to hold onto them how can you be unfaithful?
You won't ever stop loving your wife, but it IS a memory, not an active relationship. It's a previous chapter in your life.

Being really blunt- how can you be unfaithful to someone who is no longer alive except in your head?

These are the sorts of issues to discuss with a counselling who specialises in bereavement. You can set the agenda- you don't have to talk about things you'd rather not. But you do need to accept that it's a bit like lancing a boil- it might hurt but it's the road to recovery.

[ravenmum]

I'm not dealing with anything as traumatic as you in my counselling sessions but still come out feeling like I've been in a boxing match. But maybe as I'm not dealing with quite such heavy-duty stuff I can already see a slight improvement in the way I approach the deep-seated problems. We can't tell you what will help or not without knowing you, but counsellors wouldn't earn so much if people didn't find it somehow useful! Counselling can take years of sessions on a weekly basis or more often; a few sessions are not going to do it.

I don't think it's odd or unusual to find yourself at a certain age finally dealing with things that have bothered you all your life; that's just maturing. It is painful to look the scary monsters in the eye, but it takes away their power.

It's good that you took on responsibility when your wife was ill, and of course you did it willingly, though there must have been times you hated it. But you can be a carer and be cared for at the same time. You can be strong and still have weaknesses. Admitting weakness and allowing yourself to feel complete shit is a strength. Even the biggest tree has to bend in the wind or its branches will break. Maybe you didn't have any experience of this growing up. When you say that your parents couldn't cope with grief, did that mean that you had to cope alone? Or even more, that you had to look after them in some way, even if it was just tiptoeing around so as not to upset them?

Being unfaithful to the love of your wife... I don't have experience of the death of a partner, but I do have ample experience of a husband being unfaithful and I don't see it in you! The worst thing for me is the total lack of respect, thought, care or loyalty I've experienced - the fact that he's infatuated with another woman is secondary to that. If your wife was looking down now she'd be highly impressed by your loyalty to her. And you know yourself that if you were dying and leaving behind a partner you'd be praying that she found someone else, someone that could make her happy.

[mathanxiety]

I think your deep and underlying issue is feeling unable to 'be you'.

You have taken on other people's emotional burdens and hidden your own sorrow and other emotions. Do you do this out of loyalty to those whose burdens you shoulder? Or do you need to be needed? Did your wife's illness and death give you a role that suited your emotional needs or matched your emotional habits?

[BuiltByRoberts]

It just happened. I certainly don't do it out of any need to be needed - far from it actually. Being needy is something that does not sit with me. I think I am having problems asking for help, that much is becoming clear to me. My wife's illness was initially something that I found hellish and it took a good couple of weeks to get my head around the severity of her diagnosis. I swallowed my emotions. Sitting here writing this, I realize they are still swallowed. I could actually point to the exact spot in my belly where I feel them sit.

I am beginning to wonder if this is in part, part of the bigger process of healing. I am beginning to wonder if now is the time to deal with all of this properly. I feel more settled in myself, more emotionally resolved to revisit certain aspects of this.

[daisychain01]

I know we are all different, BuiltbyRobers, but the way I handled moving forward in my life was my firm belief and conviction that my DH wanted the best for me. I imagine him smiling at me (he had the biggest beaming smile ever!) and so glad that I am happy. In quiet moments I continue to thank him for my happiness, because he showed me How to love, as he was a very altruistic person. I feel I owe it to him to try my damndest (!) to be happy, carred for and loved anew.

If you can start from that point of departure, think about how your DW would not want you to feel tortured, but at peace, not alone but in the company of someone you can connect with in some other unique way that is the combination of you and that person. It may be of comfort to recast your future in a more positive light.

Your circumstances were very different to mine, in that you tragically saw your DW suffer and probably felt helpless and in despair. My DH was "lucky" in that although his life was cruelly taken away with no warning at all, by an aneurism, he did not stand a chance but never suffered. So you clearly have an awful lot to come to terms with. I am so sad for your loss, your DW was a unique and cherished and irreplaceable partner. No words can console you, but I hope you find some way to compartmentalise things, as it seems an insurmountable challenge at the moment.

[mathanxiety]

Needy isn't the same as having needs.