Is he being abusive as well as alcoholic? or am I being a controlling cow?

[newnamesamegame]

Bear with me as this may be long.
Back story to this is that for years I have been worried about H's drinking. He drinks almost every night, usually about 3-4 cans of beer, more at weekends, and weirdly more on Sundays than any other night of the week. He rarely gets inebriated and almost never stays out very late but the dependency worries me, as does the fact that drinking makes him short-tempered and occasionally verbally abusive, and increasingly I'm worried about our 3-year old DD noticing that he drinks every night. I also resent the fact that so many weekends he chooses to go to the pub instead of doing things with DD and I. I have begged him to have a few dry nights in the week. Generally his response has been to tell me I'm paranoid and he refuses to be controlled.

Over the past few months we've been fighting a lot and his drinking has escalated. It got to a point about a fortnight ago after three or four weekends where I felt my weekends had been ruined by his drinking, that I gave him an ultimatum, told him he had to either radically cut down his drinking (basically stopping during the week) or move out. After a lot of sulking and fighting, a week ago he agreed to stop.

He went four nights without a drink but was visibly stressed and finding it difficult. I suggested to him that he should think about getting support and he said he didn't need it. The second of those nights he disappeared off into the night saying he needed to walk and think. I assumed he would go to the pub but he didn't, he came back sober, but very agitated.

By the end of the week he had had a couple of cans and I decided not to fight him on this so let it go. He drank at the weekend but fairly moderately.

Monday he didn't drink again. Then Tuesday (I was at home sick, feeling very sorry for myself with DD) he came back late, smelling of booze. Not hugely, but it was clear he had been drinking. I decided not to make an issue of it although I was obviously displeased. I assumed he had just decided to have a couple and would leave it at that. He went off to the kitchen to cook and I heard him opening a can of beer. I followed him down there and just said "I thought we had an agreement."

He proceeded to let fly at me, aggressively, that he wasn't going to be told what to do in his home (its not his home, its mine) and would be drinking every night from now on. I walked quietly out of the room, not saying anything but making it clear I wasn't happy.

I then heard him telling DD he was going to have to leave the house and that mummy didn't want him here.

Now a) before someone comes on and tells me the three rules of Al-Anon, (I didn't cause it, can't control it etc) I know all this back to front and I know I need not to let it bother me. But the mechanics of not letting it bother me are a different matter.

I need to know, first of all, if I am being unreasonable in expecting to stick to what has been agreed without at least mentioning to me first that he wanted to have a brief drink after work etc? There's a bit of me thinking "its summer, he works hard, why not unwind after work?" the problem is he rarely just has one or two. If he goes out after work he will have two or three after work and then another two or three at home.

And the main thing is, I am furious about him taking it upon himself to talk to DD about something so sensitive without talking to me first and agreeing what is going to happen.

So am I a controlling b or is he abusive? Or are we both as bad as each other?

DustBunny I'm not minimising in the sense of downplaying the amount of time spent out of the home, its true that he never goes on weekend benders/doesn't stay out really late.

But I recognise that he almost certainly drinks a lot outside the home and then supplements it at home with what is already (to my mind) excessive, so I am probably under-counting the amount of units.

Butterfly I think I will see a solicitor, yes. House is in my name, my mortgage, I pay the mortgage and almost all of the bills. Not worried about immediately being turfed out on the street or anything like that. But it would be very annoying to have to sell the house in order to pay him off.

He has a drinking problem and you are not being controlling at all.

You are right to kick him out, he gets verbally abusive after a drink.

He has to choose alcohol or family.

An x drinker once said to that when he was drinking, if someone had asked him to choose between his wife and children and drinking, the drinking would have won. Every time. Not because he didn't love his family but because he couldn't, or didn't think he could, live without alcohol.

I am so sorry OP, but if he doesn't want to change, then I'm afraid you will need to put yourself and your child first.

I hope your dd doesn't end up married to an alcoholic. History has a funny way of repeating itself. He is dependant on booze without a doubt. You even said when he stayed off it he became agitated and had to go for a walk. I wonder what he thought about on that walk? Self realisation that he had a problem or how you were such a witch for demanding he stop drinking

you don't have to justify why you won't tolerate his drinking. If you are not happy with alcohol and bad behaviour on any level then that is your right.

Op just because he doesn't fit the mould of my ex alcoholic doesn't mean his drinking is affecting his life

When the drink starts to cost you more than money hen it's a problem.

You can only decide what kind of life you want, and if that doesn't include someone who drinks like he does, thm you have to do something about it. Then he is left to make his choice.

As soon as you start laying down the law about how much or how often is acceptable to YOU he has an excuse to defy you. You become part of the cycle. Step out of that, madness lies that way for you.

Tell him what you've decided, that you'll support him as a friend but you can do no more than that.
He won't have any proper friends op, they're drinking aquantances, he'll have fallen out with a great majority of them over time as well.

*isnt affecting

Op how many times have you covered for him?
Told people he's ill so can't come to something?
Apologised for his behaviour?

Dolly well that's true. I'm always turning down invitations because he's in a mood about something or other and its usually brought on either by drinking or by having a hangover from the previous night's drinking.

He said to me fairly recently one of the reasons he likes to drink is that it makes him feel able to stand up to people (i.e. me and his boss who he is permanently at loggerheads with about something or another).

I actually like him a lot when he's sober. He's gentle, quiet, thoughtful. Everything I want him to be. The "life and soul of the party" person he thinks he becomes when he's drinking is actually a twat and my guess is most people apart from alcoholics feel the same way about him.

he points out, with some justification, that he is in control, which is true to the extent that he is a high-functioning alcoholic

"High-functioning alcoholic" tends to be trotted out when you have a piss-artist who has, so far, managed to cling on to his/her job. But there's more to life than work. Is he functioning as a considerate, loving and present husband? Is he functioning as an involved, consistent and reliable parent? And how much longer do you think he will remain in his job if his "high-function" nevertheless leaves him consistently at logger-heads with his boss?

The other thing about "high-functioning alcoholics" is that they're high-functioning right up until the point when they can't manage it any more. And then the shit really hits the fan. My ex went from high-functioning alcoholic, to hopelessly alcohol-dependent, to dead in less than ten years.

OP, you are perfectly entitled to leave this man for what has happened to date. Please don't feel guilty. There are three people in your marriage if you include the booze and he prefers the booze to you. I would have got out ages ago if for no other reason than that I am not living the way I want to live. It really can be that simple. Personally I think he sounds like a bloody prick and you would be well shot of him. Don't worry about your DD, I am sure it will be better for her to be away from seeing many units of alcohol day as normal.
Please don't try and figure him out. You can't. He upsets you with his piss poor behaviour but he doesn't give a tinkers cuss. Get free.

Op it only gets worse if he doesn't address it

I couldn't leave ds1 with him to go out because I'd come back and he'd be pissed and stoned. He'd drive pissed.
He'd stay up all night taking drugs and still be awake in the morning. His best friend disowned him

That was the day I said no more. I can't be your wife. I cn be a friend because you've just lost the last of them
When the guy from AA came round to talk to him I was shocked at what ex confessed to. I hadn't seen any if the secret drinking. It was half of what he'd actually been doing

He's not exactly choosing drink over you. He's addicted to the drink. He can't help it. He can't give it up for you it doesn't work like that

HowardTJMoon I don't think he's in any immediate danger of losing his job -- he is pretty good at it, he's been there a long time and its a culture where drinking is tolerated. I actually think his drinking is fairly moderate compared with many of his co-workers, some of whom stay up all night drinking or even in one case drink on the job.

And he does function as a loving father to my DD when he is present with her, to the extent that he plays with her and is loving to her (and showers her with presents). With the exception of his tirade last week (which she didn't understand) she has never witnessed bad behaviour from him as a direct result of drinking.

The problem is the way he relates to me as part of the family unit. Its the way he seems to feel that my desire to preserve some space at home which is not touched by alcohol is an unreasonable infringement on his liberty, and the way he routinely feels its ok to let me down in relation to plans I have made and leave me waiting for hours at home for no better reason than that he wants to go to the pub.

I have mentioned on another thread that one of the things which upsets me most is that he usually refuses to make plans at weekends, usually citing the fact that a) he wants to "relax" or b) he needs to do some errand.

Then when the weekend arrives what invariably happens is that by mid-afternoon he will disappear off to do whatever the errand is (having his hair cut, some bit of work-related paperwork or shopping) and will roll back five or six hours later having spent most of that time in the pub. I always say to him if he planned things a little he could do the errand in the morning and come home, sober, leaving us time to do things as a family in the afternoon but he seems to see this as a violation of his right to do "his" things. So I feel like a bitch for trying to impose rules on him. But the practical outcome of this is that I never get a weekend, unless I have pre-arranged to do something with someone else, because the majority of the free time at weekends is taken up with my basically waiting for him to get back from the "errand" or (actually) the pub.

To reiterate, he is rarely very drunk when he gets home and its rarely very late. Its just that this basically ruins my weekends, making it all but impossible for us to do things together as a family, while he is carving out time every weekend to hang out with people he hardly knows in a pub. And I really really resent this.

Like many such posts of this type its mainly about the alcoholic. Life centres around the alcoholic and what you are describing here newname is typical of a family enmeshed in alcoholism. Alcoholism is truly a family disease and it does not just affect the alcoholic. Your own self is being affected too along with your child who is also too clearly seeing all that is going on here. Her dad is trying to buy her off with presents that are likely not needed by her. She needs a decent role model and what she has instead is an alcoholic for a dad. He will simply give her more than his fair share of her own problems as she is growing up (becoming super responsible and compliant, children are really affected emotionally by having an alcoholic parent). She could even go onto choose an alcoholic for a partner. You therefore cannot begin to protect her from the realities of her dad's alcoholism no matter how hard you try.

How much time does he actually spend with the two of you?. It seems to me that when he is not at work he is spending the rest of his time down the pub with his fellow drinking buddies because they have that commonality (many of them are alcoholics).

Did you yourself have a parent who was an alcoholic?.

They all assert that they are in control; truth is they are not. He is lying to himself and is lying to you continuously. They are the masters of denial and denial is a powerful force. Alcohol is truly a cruel mistress.

Lets talk about his job. They are playing a role here as well:-

This may be the boss, the employer, the foreman or supervisor. The Victim is the person who is responsible for getting the work done, if the alcoholic is absent due to drinking or is half on and half off the job due to a hangover. The alcoholic becomes completely dependent on this repeated protection and cover-up by the Victim; otherwise he/his could not continue drinking in this fashion. If the Victim stops helping, the alcoholic will be compelled to give up drinking or give up the job. It is the Victim who enables the alcoholic to continue his irresponsible drinking without losing his/her job.

How many workplaces these days actually tolerate any sort of heavy drinking culture?. Things have moved on a lot in the last two decades and you are probably only being told re his job what he wants you to know. As for his job there are no guarantees that he won't be sacked due to his alcoholism or absenteeism from same. Chances are he is operating there only partly sober most of the time and relies on others to cover for him. Does he drive to work?. I sincerely hope not.

You are a key person in all this and this is you:-
"She is hurt and upset by repeated drinking episodes; but she holds the family together despite all the trouble caused by drinking. In turn, she feeds back in the relationship her bitterness, resentment, fear and hurt, and so becomes the source of provocation. She controls, she tries to force the changes she wants; she sacrifices, adjusts, never gives up, never gives in, but never forgets.

This is your DH:-
The attitude of the alcoholic is that his/her failure should be acceptable, but she must never fail the alcoholic! He/she acts with complete independence and insists he/she will do as they please.

You might also be called the Adjuster. You are constantly adjusting to the crises and trouble caused by drinking.

What's the future for you in all this newname; your life will not improve any so long as you stick around becoming further enmeshed in the process.

If you have never read the 3 act play that is alcoholism (it is online) I would suggest that you do so. It will make for painful reading because that is your life along with your DHs. There is no easy way to stop the merry-go-round, for it can be more painful to stop it than to keep it going. It is impossible to spell out definite rules which apply to all members of the play. Each case is different, but the framework of the play remains the same.

And he does function as a loving father to my DD when he is present with her

But he's not present that much, is he? Fair enough he is out at work during the week but at the weekend it seems clear that he can't wait to fuck off out to the pub and get pissed with random drinking buddies rather than spending time with his daughter.

I always say to him if he planned things a little he could do the errand in the morning and come home, sober, leaving us time to do things as a family in the afternoon but he seems to see this as a violation of his right to do "his" things.

It's not about the errand. The errand is an excuse to go to the pub. No matter how many times you suggest it he simply won't plan to do the errand in the morning because the pubs aren't open in the morning. You might as well save your breath.

You're not unreasonable in wanting a partner in your life who doesn't have a serious drink problem. You are being unrealistic, though, because I don't think you are really accepting that the partner you do have in your life does have a serious drink problem and what that really entails.

Please don't think I'm having a go. I made exactly the same mistake over and over again. I read the Al-Anon "you can't control it" thing and still ended up unwittingly playing games trying to find new ways to control my ex's drinking. I thought I had every justification to do so and the bugger of it is that I did have every justification - our children. I had every right to try to make things better for them, didn't I?

But it was still completely futile and it kept me embroiled in the minutia of her drinking way too much. And it made absolutely fuck all difference.

In your first post you mentioned Al-Anon and how they try to help you not let someone else's drinking bother you. This is the whole "detachment with love" thing, yes? I met a couple of people in Al-Anon who managed that and still managed to maintain their marriages in an air of serenity and calm. I never could. I never managed to fully accept being with someone who chose so frequently to check out of our relationship and to check out of being a parent. I never got to the point of accepting second place to a bottle of booze.

Attila
I am hyper conscious of all this. My dad is a drinker I have always hesitated to call him a fully-fledged alcoholic but in retrospect he probably is/was (he's calmed it down a lot in recent years). He drank in a very civilized way wine only and usually only with food, but quite often up to a bottle a night and more when he was out. He was not abusive as such, just became very boring and ranty and self-centred when he'd had a drink. I know my mum was embarrassed by his drinking in social situations, in one or two instances I was as well.

I know that more than anything else I don't want my daughter to grow up with the same experience.

My H is usually at home at weekends until mid-afternoon when (as discussed) he typically goes out to do something else and then gets waylaid in the pub on the way home. Then he's usually home by about 9pm at the latest, and in fairness usually cooks for us. If he doesn't go to the pub he typically spends most of his time either doing chores around the house (I can't actually fault him on this front) or sitting in front of the TV. He never initiates plans to do anything with DD and I, beyond very dull local trips to the supermarket etc. If I propose doing anything with them nine times out of ten he will say he is too tired etc. He occasionally comes under duress and then typically finds reasons to complain about whatever it is we have done.

I just feel that time with me and DD doing normal, fun, child-oriented things is never a priority to him and frequently an encumbrance. He seems to feel this is over and above what is required of a man in a family set up. He often says he knows what his "responsibilities" are, and these basically include some financial support (though I carry the lion's share of this), being present but not terribly engaged, and getting up in time to go to work every day.

He sometimes says to me he thinks I (and DD) ought to go out less and spend more time in the home. When I try to unravel what this actually means he can never articulate it properly. I think his family model was a mother who basically was a skivvy (and by the way I don't blame her for this, she came from a third world country, was semi-educated and had had a really rough time in various ways) and a father who worked hard, drank hard and expected to have a meal on the table and the house cleaned from top to bottom. Your typical 1950s set-up, with alcoholism on top.

DH is intelligent enough to realise that this model doesn't work in an environment when both parents work full time (I work about 50 hours a week and am the main breadwinner) and isn't neanderthal enough to actually say my place is in the home. But I can tell at some level he finds the idea of quality family time spent together to be a bit of an indulgence and doesn't see why he should be required to go along with this. I think for his dad, responsibility stopped with basically paying for stuff and he finds it hard to adjust to a 21st century model of fatherhood.

I desperately want to change this. But I have also seen how much my DD loves him and the idea of separating them causes me so much pain and inertia.

Yanbu op.
Lots of good advice on here. Your dp sounds similar to my exh. He choose the alcohol (and the porn) over family life, still does in fact and had amazingly found a new partner who drinks as much as him.

The time, money and energy spent on drinking everyday, not enough to get pissed but just enough to be tipsy, silly, unable to drive or participate in normal family stuff. The money spent on it. The nasty edge to them when alcohol isn't available.

To the outside world I looked like a boring old fart spoiling his fun but behind closed doors it was a different story. You have my sympathies op

I echo what Atilla has said. You say that you're aware of the 3 cs and all that al anon stuff; but your posts are all about him; and you're almost apologising for feeling resentful.

I say this as someone who has been in a very similar place to you. You sound co-dependent; just as I was. The most important thing for you to do now is consider yourself. You're not used to this. Let him worry about himself.
Think of you - and what is best for you is best for your daughter. It's vital that she doesn't think this kind if behaviour is normal.

Please consider your boundaries: not "you can't drink". But "I cannot live with someone who drinks". Think about how you want your life and your daughter's to be. Give him the choice; and then follow through with your choice.

In my experience (and I struggled with the same dilemma), the children adapt to a change quite well if you can be honest (age appropriate), about what's happening. My DS in particular worships the ground his dad walks on; but knows we don't all live together cos dad drank too much beer.

Good luck. It honestly can work out, but you have to take charge of you and not him. Start thinking about you.

op reading your last post I think you are now making excuses for him
I also think that through time you will come to a point were you wont want to accept this behaviour ,but until you reach this point there is not much anyone can say to help
btw both my parents and my brother were alcoholics,so I know what it feels like to love the person but hate the alcoholic
until the person wants to stop no can make them
My brother was told by myself after my mum passed away he was not to contact me or anyone in my family he was devastated by this went away and sought help and has now been sober for 19 years and now has a great life
so there is hope
I think you will have to stick to the ultimatum that you have given him or he will think that you will put up with this shit, sorry but there is nothing you can do to help him unless he wants help

Ok op I want you to try something

Make plans for next weekend. That you will do with it without him. Stay over at a friends or whatever
Something where you and the dc are having fun and seeing people you like. Make plans for a few weekends

Then just go and do them. Don't even take into account what he's doing

Just see how the switch in your thinking and living can change things for you.

It's going to take a while for you to see what's going on with him, so start enjoying the lovely weather without the resentment if him not being available

newname

I had a feeling you grew up in a household where one parent drank heavily; that is precisely why I asked you that question.

Growing up within such an environment has left its mark which are still visible to this day. You have grown up to become super responsible and complaint; you were taught from an early age to be brave, super responsible, quiet and compliant even though you were (rightly) embarrassed by your dad's drinking. He may well have drunk wine and only with food but his drinking caused his wife and you as his daughter no end of problems. You learnt to take second place to his drinking. And your Dad likely still drinks the same way. You also learnt how to be codependent (from the other non drinker of a parent who also did her fair bit of damage here as well) and that is a role amongst many you have carved out for yourself now. Look closely at what your parents taught you about relationships here.

Many such relationships where alcoholism is a factor have co-dependency within them and you are codependent I have no dobut of that at all. You can change and not be codependent any more but you need to put some both serious and hard work in now to change that otherwise your DD (bless her socks) will grow up to follow exactly the same patterns that her own parents laid down for her in her own adult relationships. Is that what you want for her?. Of course not.

Re this comment:-

"I desperately want to change this. But I have also seen how much my DD loves him and the idea of separating them causes me so much pain and inertia".

You cannot change him or this on your own, you can only change how you react to him and your inertia as well is keeping you within this. You could likely go on in the same vein for years. As I explained easier its easier to stay on the merry go around than to actually take on a new role and get off it.

Again this is all co-dependency talking here. Your DD loves her Dad of that I have no doubt at all but children love parents no matter how crap they actually are. He loves your DD but his primary relationship is with drink and he loves alcohol more. His next thought really is where the next drink is going to come from. Your DD is learning fast and is seeing that her dad is putting alcohol before her, she is seeing that he puts alcohol before you as her mum. Her Dad is thus an appalling role model. BTW did you want your Mum to leave your Dad when you were growing up, do you wish she had done so?. Your mother may well have felt the same sorts of pain and inertia so remained within the household. She also stayed at that time for her own reasons (its far easier to stay on the merry go around than to get off it) but you simply now cannot afford to make the same mistakes that she made with you.

This type of stuff goes down the generations as well.

New three years ago I could have written all your posts family stuff boring etc. I remember being in the Natural History Museum DD loving it so excited and ExH bored so we left and went for an early lunch which of course involved alcohol.
I was concerned about his drinking as he also drank every night and could not even have one night without it, but I was unreasonable and it was always turned round to be some fault of mine.
Anyway our marriage ended for other reasons, but once outside I could see he was an EA alcoholic. Like your DH he seemed quite good at his job and it tolerated a certain level of drinking. In truth living with someone who drank very little curbed the worst of his drinking. Once not with me his drinking worsened he lost his driving licence, lost his job and ultimately had dramatically reduced contact with our DD due to his drunken behaviour.

he typically goes out to do something else and then gets waylaid in the pub on the way home.

You make it sound like an accident. It's not. He is going out with the specific intention of going to the pub. The errand is merely an excuse.

I just feel that time with me and DD doing normal, fun, child-oriented things is never a priority to him and frequently an encumbrance.

Correct. You and DD are an obligation. Drinking is what he wants to do.

Your father had an alcohol problem. You ended up in a relationship with someone with an alcohol problem. It's very likely that is not a coincidence (it wasn't with me and I'm sure you'd hear many similar stories in Al-Anon). What do you think your DD is learning about relationships?

Howard I know its not an accident that he goes to the pub. He admits that to me. He just doesn't see the problem with it. He says because he's home in time for dinner etc, not very drunk, always bearing gifts, it shouldn't matter. What he doesn't understand is that every day he does that is a Saturday/Sunday lost to me and DD or where we have to do things on our own because we know he won't be around. Its hard to rationalize with him on this because he genuinely doesn't see what's wrong with this -- I assume this is what his dad did and he just thinks this is what men do at weekends.

Or he will say I should plan things with other friends who have small children and not expect it all to fall to him. I do do this, and frequently plan outings without him (because I know he won't step up to do it himself) and its fine, but I can't see why it should be such a bloody dealbreaker for him to occasionally set aside sober time to spend with his wife and daughter at weekends. Its not like I even ask him to do this every weekend.

Lonecat your post resonated so much with me. I'm sick of feeling that we have to do things like this on our own without him or that if he does come on sufference H will be bored or complain or that he will have to "reward" himself with pub time afterwards. I see other families out doing things where the dad is there and engaged and enjoying himself and I think to myself "why is it such an imposition on you that you can't do stuff like this?"

Attila I know you are right. I feel like I'm living with two different people though. When he is not drinking he is loving, considerate and exceptionally kind to his daughter. Even when drinking he is kind to her.

But when he is drinking he will think nothing of spending a whole Saturday in the pub and then be ratty with me when I ask him if he would mind spending Sunday with us, or find an excuse to go across town to do something in the place where his pub is.

"I know you are right. I feel like I'm living with two different people though. When he is not drinking he is loving, considerate and exceptionally kind to his daughter. Even when drinking he is kind to her.

But when he is drinking he will think nothing of spending a whole Saturday in the pub and then be ratty with me when I ask him if he would mind spending Sunday with us, or find an excuse to go across town to do something in the place where his pub is".

Is he really exceptionally kind to his DD or would you just like to think that he is?. From what I've read about your H on this thread he is rarely at home with her and gives her presents (not necessarily wanted or even needed by her either) as a consolation prize for him not being there. Everything in your H's life revolves around drink and where the next drink is going to come from; that is what he is thinking when he actually goes out on any outing with you. It is of no surprise at all he will go all out to find the nearest pub when he does deign to go out with you both.

He is a poor role model for her, you really do not want her growing up thinking all this as "normal" because she will come to realise over the years that it is not. She will come to notice that her friends dads are there for their children and her dad is at the pub again. She will not want to bring friends back home due to the horrid atmosphere within it.
You really do not want her growing up to believe that you as her mother put him before her. She will not thank you for staying with this person and could go onto wonder of you why you stayed. If you were to state because of her she would call you daft for doing so.

Your second paragraph completely cancels out the first paragraph. Also importantly here, you only concentrate on how you feel he is towards your DD. You do not write at all about your own relationship with him or how you feel about him now. He is not loving, considerate and kind towards you is he?.

Did you ever wish that your Mum had left your Dad?.

Your DD and you are an inconvenience because you prevent him doing the thing he wants to do the most which is drink himself into oblivion.

You newname have a choice re your H, your child does not.

You are describing precisely life with an alcoholic; this is your reality as it stands and there is nothing you can personally do for him because he does not want your "help" and "support".