Another PIL thread...

[atotalshambles]

This is my first time posting on a thread but I would appreciate any help from anyone who has been in a similar situation.

I have known my PIL for years and years. They are very lovely people. They both retired a few years ago and are in good health. We always got on really well. That is until we had children!

I realised that things had changed on our first joint holiday when my first child was a few months old. As soon as we arrived at the destination they took the baby and basically wouldn't let me near the baby for the rest of the holiday. I would snatch a few moments with the baby before the baby would taken away for 'grandparent time'. They are basically the most enthusiastic grandparents ever. They mean well but just take over.

This holiday set the scene for the last few years .We have since had 2 more children and every time they see them they like to take them off on their own to have 'control' and do things 'their way'. If we ever leave them with them for a few days they always try to extend the time they have them or take control in their own way. For example, if I leave medicine for a child they will go out and buy a separate medicine which they think is better. When I was pregnant last year I went to stay with them with the children for a few days and they would go out for a few hours and leave me in their house on my own (and not ask me!). I think they were put out that I hadn't wanted to leave them with them on their own.

Last year just before i had my last baby i became seriously ill. To their credit they dropped everything and came to help. I wasn't expected to recover and while my husband was with me in hospital they looked after the kids. For the next 6 weeks they looked after the kids and were great. I was amazingly lucky and after a month was out of hospital and am now expected to make a full recovery in time. I was separated from my baby for the first month which has been really difficult.

Initially I found it really hard to bond with the baby and I did tell my PILs but they would say things like 'I was so bonded with the baby that I have really struggled to give him back' and 'we could easily take the baby home '. They would not let me near the baby at a time when I needed to bond so in the end we made alternative arrangements for childcare. I now look after the kids pretty much all of the time. I have a little bit of help but mostly do it independently. I am completely bonded with the baby now. The PIL ask to come down constantly and if we refuse then they try to engineer a reason e.g. we are meeting friends can we stay at your house etc..

What I struggle with now is how to move on. I want things to change with the PIL. I feel that my own parents have suffered and not seen the kids as much as they are not as 'pushy'. I want to have a good relationship with the PIL but not have them take over. I can already see they are annoyed as we are trying to put in some boundaries and not see them as much/see them on our own terms. I also find I am angry with them as I feel they they didn't help me bond with the baby but were more interested in 'their time' with 'their grandchildren'.

I don't want want to fall out with them as I know they mean well . Any suggestions for help would be appreciated.

I think the obvious thing would be to arrange a time - child free - to sit down and talk with them.

As a couple, you and your partner (he knows how you feel, right?).

It can be done very gently, but it has to be done. They will be hurt and defensive but you can say over and over that you really appreciate them and they are part of the grandchildren's lives, but you need them to appreciate that YOU are the parents and in some areas they need to back off.

Then give concrete examples. Gently call them on the 'engineering' visits. Tell them how it makes you feel and tell them about your own parents not getting a look in.

Make it clear this isnt a request - this is a statement. You can negotiate the fine details of how often they call round / have the children at some point, showing willing to negotiate on details, but the broad principles are not negotiable. Taking one of your children so much that you couldnt bond with them is absolutely not on :/ Use that anger to redraw the lines.

They may well be upset for a while, but you are upset right now. They sound basically very good people, they should adjust.

What does your DH say about what his parents are doing?

What is the family dynamic like with other grandkids (if they have any?)

What were DH's own grandparents like?

Sorry for questions, I'm just curious.

I read your post and think 'wow you're so lucky' as are your children. I think it's great that they want to help and be involved. Sometimes gp just can't get it right, they're too interested, not interested enough and on it goes.

I know you are their mother so you are within your rights to decide what, where and when but from your childrens perspective they are being loved and doted on by their grand parents and don't seem to have suffered in the slightest for it.

I say don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

You have to your children 90% of the time. Give them their 10% and enjoy the break.

Thanks Meerka - that's really helpful. I am really struggling with how to handle it.

DH used to think his parents were a bit OTT but meant well. After having to spend a lot of time with them in the last few months he completely sees where I'm coming from. He is happy to encourage them to 'back off' as well but would like to do it without upsetting them.

He had a normal relationship with his grandparents.

The PIL have retired early in good health and live in a rural area. Their grandchildren are 'their world' and their lives revolve around them.

They have 3 other grandchildren from DH's sister. She is a bit of a 'golden child' - can't so anything wrong etc.. She is happy to spend lots of time with them.

OK, I'm not a grandparent, or a parent, but I am an auntie. It is so lovely when DP and I get our niece to ourselves for a few hours without her parents around. I enjoy every second and look forward to it for weeks. And I do feel very sad sometimes when its time to give her back. So I completely understand your PILs wanting some alone time with your children.

However, I think their behaviour is pretty outrageous. The buying a different, 'better' medicine must feel very undermining for you. Taking the baby from you and refusing to give her back is just not on. They seem to struggle hugely with boundaries and with realising that they are not actually these children's parents and don't have a 'right' to spend as much time as they want with them. Yes it does sound like they were very helpful when you needed them but seriously - boundaries, people!

I agree with Meerka - you will need to be very clear about this. In a positive, loving supportive way of course, letting them know that you are enormously grateful that they are so loving and so enthusiastic about the children. But they do need to be told (kindly) to back off a bit.

Thanks for the update, OP.

Maybe if they are so annoying it'd be better if you didn't go on holiday with them, or leave your kids with them for overnights.

And, take a deep breath and count to 10 before you get upset.

If they are genuinely acting in the best interests of your DC - by that I mean, if they treat them safely and well - then I really think it's just a clash of personalities.

It's good you're putting boundaries in place, that's a great idea. So what if they don't like it, they'll have to tow the line.

But don't push them away too much. Just try to get a good balance between them, your own parents, friends, etc etc.

I think you're right. In their ideal world we would live near them and I would work full time and they would care for them on a full-time basis without me being in the way. Currently things are completely the opposite as I stay at home and we live a few hours away. Yes, they do annoy me - much more so since being ill. They did really upset me and to be honest we will probably see them much less. Although I would never stop them having a relationship with the grandchildren

I have read this post and the answers several times as I am a GP and GPIL and MiL. Atot you have already said that they know something is wrong and although they have overstepped the mark big time, they have also been very very good to your children and you. If you tell them what is troubling you, then there is a risk that things will never be the same with them ever again. After all you are their DIL. Also the situation with them will not last forever as they will age and will be incapable of looking after three children all day for weeks at a time. (Time goes very quickly) I think you have to weigh up what you might lose from telling them. You have bonded with your baby and you don't live near them, so has any real harm being done? They have no obligation to love you, and even if all the criticism comes from your son I am afraid they may well think it is yoohoo. Then the next time you need them perhaps they will not be so willing to drop everything.

Yyy to hole

Quite likely what does Yyy mean? Sorry I am relatively new to MN.

Yes yes yes. That's what I take it to mean anyway!

Both your DHs and your own boundaries re his parents have been set far too low to date and PILs have taken full advantage of such weakness on your part. You have allowed yourselves to be so undermined as parents. BTW their actions have not done your children any real favours either; they are also the recipients of mixed messages here.

Its not entirely your fault though; you had no idea beforehand that they were going to turn into such types prior to having children. They however, have likely always been controlling and your DH normalised it due to his own conditioning at his parents hands. It is only when children come onto the scene that such scenarios occur and you feel the full force of their power and control. It will be hard to retake this back but you must do so. Make it a statement rather than a request.

My guess is that you talking to them will be taken as an affront to them and will not go down at all well. Your roles in this overall dysfunction that they have created have been assigned by them and trying to break free of this could will be difficult. Your statement of fact could be taken by them as an attack on them personally, there is no reasoning really with such people and they could well be awkward and obtuse.

If both of you can maintain a united and consistent front with regards to his parents so much the better.

Interesting as well you mention his "golden child" sister; parents who are controlling often have a golden child/scapegoat dynamic going on within their own family unit. They both also have a problem with boundaries as you have already seen; they are quite happy to undermine you and have done so many times.

Hole makes absolute sense, you are extremely lucky to have such involved grandparents who have stepped in to help at the drop of a hat. They will not be around for ever and it is possible that all sorts of health problems could arise for either of them in the near future and they won't be physically capable of managing your DC's.

I think you are being a little mean spirited here OP. Their support has been tremendous, I think it would cause too much upset and damage to your relationship with them if you start "putting your point across".
Withdraw a little by all means and distance yourself, but I fear explaining "boundries" to them at this stage when they have been so involved in the past may cause irrepairable hurt.

Oh! so now I know. I personally never ask to visit any of my DILs. I wait to be asked. It is very hard being perfect. For instance because I don't ask to visit, I may be accused of not being in contact enough and not caring. I don't think you can win. I think it is in the nature of the MIL GMIL situation. Things are just not as relaxed as with my daughters. I am so frightened of losing my sons ( I have seen this happen with DIL's that have issues) that I over check that things are as the DIL's wish. I think this situation that has arisen could be because of Atot's inability to be assertive. I can't imagine not handing over the baby if My DIL said ' give me the baby'. When they went out when she was presumably in bed was to give her a rest ? The only thing that is a no no for me is them replacing the medicine with one of their own. I love my Grandchildren in such a different way from my own children. I feel wonder at their every utterance. With my own children I was just too tired to have much time for wondering.
I have just re- read the post again and I think Atot is over reacting. No ones feelings can be ignored because they are their feelings and I am not ignoring hers, but with hind sight and experience ( which is what I have as I have brought up 5 kids, am a GPIL a MIL and a DIL ) I think that in the future ATOt will be sorry that she said anything. It is mainly good stuff these people have done for her and so would it not be possible to bear the rest? In 5 years or so they will get so decrepit anyway, she will end up having to go and help them.

thanks for all the advice. Yes, they have been great and they do mean well. But their help in the last few months has actually caused more problems for us. I think I would have preferred it if they had not come to help us. We would have managed and I am certainly not bothered about whether they babysit for us or not. We will manage in whatever circumstances. The main thing is I don't want to hurt them, and I would like us to develop a more 'functional' and 'normal (!) relationship.

Atotal - I see where you are coming from and I think that you are very gracious in acknolwedging the GP's contribution and support.

Agree with Meerka - you are being undermined massively by many of their actions, and sidelined - it does seem as though your DH's parents want to 'be' the parents, not the grandparents. Their actions, interpreted by some on this thread as generous, kind, grandparently also seem (reading between the lines of your post) to be a bit agressive, pushy and overbearing.

Direct confrontation, even if done gently, could have massive implications, however, so tread warily and maybe re-erect the boundaries bit by bit so that it is almost imperceptible. You have got into the 'tradition' of family holidays etc. Maybe you could tackle this first - announce that you're going away on a holiday just your own little group this year. Or, maybe, announce that to make things fair between both sets of GPs, do alternate years. Getting stuck in a yearly tradition in this kind of situation is difficult, as expectations are there.

Good luck with extracting yourselves gently

What ! what ! Attila .? Where does the post say that the family is dysfunctional. How have her PIL taken advantage of her ? They really took advantage of her by taking care of three children for six weeks, when one of the children was a baby. I wish my MIL had taken advantage of me then. I disagree with your opinion. Also the OP says that she is recovering from a serious illness. Whose to say she is not seeing things clearly ATM? The 'Golden Child ' statement could be interpreted as jealousy on Atot's part as well. If she lived around the corner from her PIL and they popped in every five minutes with out asking, then I would have a different opinion. They ring up and have not turned up without asking and ATot admits in the first paragraph that she thinks they are lovely people. However, she does then go on to moan about them and the SIL comment isn't very nice. How Attila interprets her ' Golden Child' comment as being part of the PIL being controlling, beats me.

I'm not convinced that dancing around the subject with everything unspoken will do anyone any favours. Simmering resentment won't help the OP or her family and it's clear that both she and her husband are being encroached on, though from the best intentions.

It does sound like the in laws want to be the parents instead of you! Having people pretty well force themselves between the OP and the children is pretty unpleasant. Over-pushy people who don't respect the parents' autonomy tend to find themselves asked to help less and less.

Having said that, agreed that you shoudl have spoken up before now. I adore my MIL but like everyone she's not perfect and every now and then we do very gently have to make the point that we are the parents, not them. And we are gentle about it, but firm. Fortunately my brother in law (who actually doesn't like me very much!) tends to actually pull MIL up himself when she's going too far now and then. Love her to bits though and miss her if we don't see her for a week [heart]

You can have a conversation that makes boundaries clear without being abrasive or aggressive. Something like "youa re very much part of the children's lives, but there are also times we need to be a family unit on our own" And if you go away, planning some days away as a family separately from them; if they start intruding and taking them over, saying 'actually, I want to hold the baby / play naughts and crosses / take them for an ice cream myself at the moment, how about in a couple of hours' time?" said with a smile

I can understand that grandparents love the chance to be parents all over again, but the torch has passed on to you and you're the ones holding it.

Just to say again - I do think you have to actually verbally start saying 'no' to them sometimes. If they came to help when you'd rather they didn't, then it needs to be said 'no thank you, though we appreciate the offer very much and we'll call on you when we need you".

But get your husband on your side and ensure that he will back you up, or say No to them himself, sometimes. It'll help you emotionally and will make it clear that you are standing together.

Just to clarify I wasn't trying to be bitchy. My PIL like many parents absolutely think the world of their children. My SIL is lovely and I am sure if she was my daughter then I would feel exactly the same way. Like many parents they don't think their children can do any wrong. Completely understandable. Although I was seriously ill, I can quite capable of seeing clearly thank you Hole. My DH who never has a bad word to say about anyone and always thinks the best of people thinks that they have been a bit of a nightmare. As much as they wanted to help when I was ill it was also an opportunity for them wasn't it? It was probably the scenario they had wanted all along (although not me being ill of course). As my SIL said when we saw her 'it gave my mum a purpose in her life '.

holeintheheart - the PIL's help left the OP feeling their help in the last few months has actually caused more problems for us. I think I would have preferred it if they had not come to help us.

They are obviously lovely people, but if it's not working for both sides of the relationship - grandparents and parents - then it's not working.

They did a kind thing but obv for their own reasons. To stop a seriously ill mother from being with her own baby isn't a nice thing at all. To say we could take her and not give her back isn't nice especially when the mum has been so ill, so ill in fact she may have died.
OP is now having to reflect on that now she has recovered and it must be devastating not only coming to terms with being so ill. But potentially leaving your children for someone else to bring up is an unspoken fear for any parent, and for the pil to be so uncaring at that time is terrible.
IF they really cared about the dc they would never have done this so it's clear to me they only care about themselves.
Granted they will get older and less able to do this but why shouldn't the OP show how hurt she is by cutting down on contact. OP you don't necessarily have to say anything just cool contact stop the holidays if you don't enjoy them, and make sure that any contact you do have is on your terms.

I'm struggling to be honest OP - they seem to have got you out of a hole when you needed it, and as they're so far away, I can't see how they can have such an upsetting influence on your day to day lives. Was there a reason that your own DPs couldn't help with childcare when you were ill? I can see that there are things that would irritate me, but nothing that a bit of distance wouldn't put into perspective.

Agree really with hole - you're damned if you don't and damned if you do as an MIL - personally I'm dreading the day!

Living on top of anyone (nomatter how much you love them) is wearing, but just try and give a bit - it's lovely for your DC to be surrounded by people who love them. Hope you're well on the road to recovery now.

ajandj - my own parents were at the hospital with me doing a shared 6 hours on and off with my OH. It was touch and go for a while and they wanted to be there in case the worst happened,