FIL not just a misogynist; he also hit MIL. What do I do?

[MilchMaid]

Name-changed to protect the guilty.

DH and I have been married for nearly three years and we have two children (2yo and 4mo).

My FIL is a horrible man. Ninety-five per cent of the time, he is terribly charming, always polite on the surface, but actually he is a deeply racist, misoynistic man. MIL has been worn down by him over the many years and has no opinions of her own, is shouted at if she tries to say anything different, treated like a slave, etc. She has no friends and doesn't talk to her family anymore because of FIL meddling. (We keep up with her side of the family, but FIL hates me us for it.) She's also not always very nice to me, but I know it's because FIL doesn't like me.

DH is the second of four boys. It is only since we got together that he has started to work out what his father is actually like. He no longer defers to FIL's opinion on every decision we make, unlike the other three sons. He also understands that the way FIL has treated MIL their whole married life is beyond the pale. He still finds it very difficult to stand up to FIL though, although we have made some progress over this last year.

I have never witnessed FIL being violent, but I have seen him have violent outbursts when angered (usually because MIL has dropped her fork, or answered the phone wrong, or not cooked the potatoes the right way). (This have never happened in front of our children.)

DH knows that the first time he has one of these outbursts in front of our children, we will be leaving immediately, and I will never allow my children to see FIL again. I would actually like to never see him again NOW, but DH doesn't think that's fair as FIL is always lovely with the kids.

However, I have just discovered that FIL once hit MIL in front of the boys when DH was about 9yo. MIL's sister told me, and when I asked DH about it, it became apparent he had repressed the memory or something. He got upset and told me it was the worst moment of his life, but didn't really understand why he'd never told me himself. He said he hadn't thought about it for years and years.

After FIL hit MIL, she escaped to her family with the boys in tow. FIL followed and told the boys to choose between her and him. They all chose him. I assume out of fear, but also he has this weird hold over them all. None of them respect MIL even now. Anyway, as they all chose FIL, she went with them, scared of losing her children.

She was an alcoholic their entire childhoods, which upsets DH to this day when we talk about it. I think her alcoholism caused a lot of the arguments between FIL and MIL as the boys were growing up. I assume being married to this horrible pig was the reason she drank, but I find it hard to forgive her for driving them all around drunk every day. Actually, I blame FIL entirely, but I wish MIL had been strong enough to protect herself and them from him.

This is so long and complicated, and I haven't explained half of their awful family history and problems. But I need some advice; I have no one I can talk to about all of this. Now that I know he was violent at least one time (and I doubt very much it was a one-off that happened to be in front of the children), surely I can say to DH that we are not going there again? I don't want to put my children in danger obviously. But DH won't accept that we won't be visiting anymore, I doubt. How do I persuade him? How do I help him?

I'm not sure why this incident of violence so many years ago makes a difference to your stance - although it is utterly abhorrent and he should be in prison. All of the behaviour you describe is unacceptable - the racism, the sexism, the violent outbursts and the violence. You are currently prepared to risk him displaying any/all of this behaviour in front of your children (that sounds more judgey than I mean it, it's hard to know how your DH would be able to stand up to his dad and remove his children without an incident as the basis for it).

To be quite honest, I suspect your DH won't accept it even after the incident inevitably happens. He has been conditioned his whole life to play it down, see it as the fault of whoever or whatever triggered it. Your perception of the seriousness of these events is wildly different from his.

Having started down this road of allowing contact whilst he behaves himself, I don't know how you back out now.

I didn't know what he was like to start with. I had to work it all out for myself (didn't take all that long though if I'm honest), and then tell DH! He didn't/doesn't see it. As you say, he's been conditioned to play it down and to think his father is right in all matters.

Your "judgey" comment is spot on though I'm risking it all every time we go there. It's about every six to eight weeks for a weekend. DH is guilted into the trips because there's always something he needs to help out with.

I really don't know what to do.

I really really don't think you should get too involved here. He is not presenting a risk to you, your children or your husband (by your own admission). Honestly cutting out the in laws will cause massive future headaches and from what you have said your husband doesn't seem to want this either.

I think it will be a m

Minefield if you cut contact.

I can see why you have such intense feelings towards these people but segregating yourselves from them might just create more trouble for your dh.

I don't think alcoholism is caused by other people either.

Well that sounds like a PITA even with nice parents. Are all the other boys made to go on rotation this frequently? They must have one of them to stay every other weekend.

As your children get older it may not be possible to go this frequently anyway, as they start to have activities at the weekend that they prefer to do. So a gradual withdrawal might be a good idea. I also wouldn't be prepared to stay there - perhaps the newly-discovered risk of violence does take that from 'just about acceptable' to 'definitely not'. What if FIL went apeshit in the middle of the night? Just no.

DH needs to go on his own sometimes - don't you have better things to be doing at weekends than spending them with such a vile person?

Cutting contact would absolutely cause a massive problem for the entire family. I am almost relieved I'm not being unequivocally told to do it, but I still wish I didn't have to see him.

We live two hours away.

Son 1 lives about an hour away and visits a lot, out of choice. FIL is currently sabotaging his relationship with his new girlfriend, as he doesn't think she's suitable too much ambition, too intelligent, appears to have her own mind. Son 1 is apparently unable to see the blatant sabotage, and DH is unwilling to enlighten him in case of fallout.

Son 3 is married and has a baby DC, and they live eight hours away. His DW is great and is currently helping Son 3 see FIL for who he is, but she's having less success than I am. We talk frequently via email about it all.

Son 4 is single, a student and also lives eight hours away.

Neither Son 3 nor Son 4 are under any obligation to visit in the same way we are, mainly because of the distance, but also because they have "so much going on" in their lives. Despite the fact that DH works full time and studies part time, and we have two young children, they think we have all the time in the world to visit them. They have been to ours for lunch four times since we got married, each time at our insistance (so we didn't have to drive to theirs).

I won't allow DH to take the kids without me (they're far too young right now anyway), and I know they want to see the kids. Plus, during the week DH and I see each other for only an hour or two each day. We like spending the weekends together, even if that means I have to be there.

I swing wildy between being angry at MIL for her alcoholism, for hurting DH and causing him so much pain in his childhood, for not standing up to FIL once, and feeling desperately sorry for her being married to this man. It was basically a marriage of convenience arranged by her father, but even he tried to talk her out of it at the last minute once he saw FIL for the man he was.

She quit drinking about ten years ago officially. But she has started having beers again when we are there.

DH and I had another chat last night about it all. From my point of view, I need him to absolutely reject his father's behaviour, all of it, and start supporting his mother more. Little things like not talking over her at the dinner table, or telling his father to stop if he is rude to her.

The problem is, DH knows that it is bad, and yet shrugs it off because it's so normal to him. I asked him why it was so easy to forgive his father for all that he's done to them, and DH said there was nothing to forgive because he hadn't done anything wrong, or so he thought for the majority of his life. He said this in tears, and said he didn't think he'd be able to act differently - i.e. nicer to his mum - because it was so ingrained into him that she was unimportant I told him of course he jolly well could, and I would help him. But I don't know how really.

If anyone is still reading, I would love to hear tips on how to cope practically. How do I help DH? What more can I do? I try not to just slag his father off to death, rather explain gently why his behaviour is so abhorrent to normal people. I try not to engage with FIL when we're there, so the incendiary comments designed to rile me get ignored. That almost feels like he's just getting away with it though.

I wish I were quick enough to snap back when he's making horrible comments, but he's one of those men who dominates conversations and arguments and doesn't allow you to get your point across. They are also a different nationality to me (I'm British, they're European), and although I speak their language fluently, I'm not near-native standard. He uses this against me by purposefully using words I'm unlikely to understand, then treating me like a child or an idiot when I flounder. I hate it, especially in front of the DC.

I feel sorry for your DH...he must feel caught in the middle between you and his parents. I would back off to be honest. You sound very overly involved in the situation.

I think I agree with Holly. You are putting your husband in a very difficult situation. What really matters now is how your inlaws interact with your children. If they are attentive, loving grandparents then you shouldn't be tying to deny either your children or his parents, of that relationship.
If you are concerned about your mil, why don't you invite her alone to your house for a few days, or make an effort to take her out?

I think you should also consider that the sons have a very real grievance against their alcoholic mother.

Your DH has had a very disfunctional family life, and while you really want to help him see this, you perhaps don't have the skills or the detachment to do it. Perhaps your DH should seek some professional counselling.

I feel very sorry for your mil. She's copping a lot of blame for being one of the victims in all this. The one to blame is fil.

I don't think you are being fair on your OH here.

While I understand your point of view, I don't think it's your place to "not allow" your OH to take the children there. Can you see how that sounds?
Nor should you "need" your OH to do anything in relation to them.

I think you should stand up for your MIL if it bothers you, but forcing your OH to take an attitude towards their relationship is a huge minefield.
I think the way you are going at it is treating your OH like a child and is likely to alienate him and cause problems between you too.
Sure, talk about it, but as a team and in a supporting way.

You do sound very overly-invested in this, and trying to unravel your DH's childhood, at this level of dysfunction, sounds like a job for a counsellor. At minimum I would be looking to get him some self-help books about toxic parents, MNers can advise on this. Why are you so angry about his mother's behaviour two or three decades ago? Even sober she could not have prevented the FIL from being a monster. Do you have 'rescuer' tendencies? Do you see DH as someone you need to fix?

I worry that your DH's learnt behaviour with regards to his mother - which sounds completely unacceptable, to be honest - will eventually spill over to his attitude to other women. You. I'd be focusing on that with him and reducing contact with his parents accordingly. The fact that he genuinely believes his dad has done no wrong is staggering - no wonder that poor bloody woman is drinking again.

However, the news that she is drinking again adds a new dimension to this. Your children are now in the presence of a violent, racist misogynist and an active alcoholic. Why on earth would you want to do that?

When I said above that your DH had to go on his own, I meant literally on his own. God knows the last thing your children need is fewer adults to protect them from these people.

This is a deeply dysfunctional family dynamic. As your children get older and less willing to comply, I fear particularly for any female children you have. Thank god DH doesn't have any sisters, I can imagine their lives would have been a living hell growing up.

Start making your trips shorter, at least. One day is doable with a four hour round trip. Don't spend a night in the house with them.

The person I feel most sorry for is your MIL. it sounds like she's had a desperately unhappy life, married to a hideous man, and even now that her sons are grown she is still kicked to the bottom of the pile. I wonder if she'd had a daughter, would things be different for her?

I would find it hard to respect a grown man who treated his mother so badly. How would he feel if your children treated you like that?

I'm not sure what you can do about anything, but I agree with the PP who suggested that you let your MIL know you see the situation clearly and will support her if you can.

I would call your husband out every time he talks over your MIL or embarrasses her. It will cause a problem the first couple times...but your dh will wuickly learn to stop doing it if he wants to avoid a situation.

Don;t let yoru children learn that women can be talked to that way.

If you do decide to go non contact you absolutely have every tight considering that he is a violent abusive racist misogynist.

Also I assume you are in Germany? Have you considered finding a conversation exchange so that you are more confident in speaking? People are desperate to speak English.

I agree that the danger here is how this spills over into your own relationship. If your DH couldn't see that his dad had done anything wrong, what is his attitude to women, and to you?

Will he play out how his dad treated his children with your children?

Excellent post, tribpot - totally agree with you.

If I'm totally honest, I think that's what I'm scared of happening. I don't think it will, but only if he really accepts that what FIL did/does is unacceptable.

I'm not trying to be controlling, nor do I think I have rescuer tendencies. But I do want to protect our children, and I do want to help DH with his family situation, because he's hurting. It's too much for him, and maybe it's too much for me, too. Professional counselling is probably the way to go, but I doubt very much DH will go for it.

Last year I tried to get closer to MIL. I took her for lunch a few times, we went bra shopping (inspired by the bra intervention threads!), we talked a lot. She's had a very sad life. I really thought we were developing a much closer friendship, and it was lovely for DD to see more of her Oma. Then at Christmas I discovered that she was badmouthing me to all and sundry, saying I was a dreadful mother and other things. I was distraught. I don't even think it was her opinion, rather FIL's, because he saw us getting closer and felt the need to ruin it for us both.

All my friends are German and my whole life is lived in German, if you see what I mean, so I speak it all the time. But I still find it hard with FIL.

I'm afraid that is how people like him assert control.

He was undermined by you developing a closer relationship with your MIL, so he broke it down. She can't have her own opinion about you, because that would be a chink in his armour. I wouldn't be surprised if he told her lies about things you say about her.

You can't save your ILs. They are in their own dysfunctional world. Also, don't take sides or force your DH to take sides.

Set your boundaries for behaviour they exhibit in you/your children's company. Think carefully in advance about what is acceptable and what is not. Walk out as a family if they cross the line. You can still come back another day. Don't expect them to change the dynamic they've had for decades just because you are visiting. They CHOOSE it. You disapprove (rightly so) but it is their choice.

I have a toxic mother (personality disorder). My father was violent to her. He had at least one affair. They divorced in their late middle age.

I fell into the trap of thinking poor little abused woman over my own mother when I was a youngster. Big bad daddy is the cause of all the trouble. Except he wasn't. She was fucked up before they married. No doubt he made things worse. His behaviour was absolutely unacceptable. But so was hers

Bizarrely, I was excusing her just like she excused him: oh that bad behaviour is because he/she has been abused and mistreated, it is my duty to help and support my poor damaged darling, we are bound together for life, I will save him/her.

When I stopped pandering to them, set my boundaries and enforced them the results were astonishing. My DF and I get along fairly well now. He is lovely with my children. He never asks to be alone with them, we never offer.

My DM freaked out when she lost her victim (me). She attacked me in every way she could think of, including physically. She tried to claim that I had beaten her up. I hadn't, I had wrestled free when she was pinning me in a hallway and she got hurt in the process. Btw DF definitely beat her - I saw him smash her head on things. I rarely see her or talk to her now.

DH found it hard to understand how I could get along better with him than her. He thought I was deluded, programmed to please.

After discussion, he set his own boundaries for their behaviour around us. He did not take sides or attempt to cure anyone. Over the years my DM overstepped the boundaries many times with him (including coming on to him!). DF doesn't. We spend more time with DF. He has a long term girlfriend now. They don't live together. He says he shouldn't live with anyone. He is right. My DM destroys everyone in her path. She refuses to take responsibility for anything in her life. We call her a career victim.

When people have been together for as long as your ILs, it is no longer as simple as bad guy good guy. She's an alcoholic married to an abuser. Chances are she abused your DH far worse than his father ever did. Tragic. Almost understandable. Still totally unacceptable.

You can set boundaries, enforce them and encourage you DH to get therapy. That's it. Step away.

I agree with Cookie.
She chose to bad mouth you, which should be independent of what your FIL feels like.

It looks more complicated than only a victim and abuser relationship, which is never simple.