FIL not just a misogynist; he also hit MIL. What do I do?

[MilchMaid]

Name-changed to protect the guilty.

DH and I have been married for nearly three years and we have two children (2yo and 4mo).

My FIL is a horrible man. Ninety-five per cent of the time, he is terribly charming, always polite on the surface, but actually he is a deeply racist, misoynistic man. MIL has been worn down by him over the many years and has no opinions of her own, is shouted at if she tries to say anything different, treated like a slave, etc. She has no friends and doesn't talk to her family anymore because of FIL meddling. (We keep up with her side of the family, but FIL hates me us for it.) She's also not always very nice to me, but I know it's because FIL doesn't like me.

DH is the second of four boys. It is only since we got together that he has started to work out what his father is actually like. He no longer defers to FIL's opinion on every decision we make, unlike the other three sons. He also understands that the way FIL has treated MIL their whole married life is beyond the pale. He still finds it very difficult to stand up to FIL though, although we have made some progress over this last year.

I have never witnessed FIL being violent, but I have seen him have violent outbursts when angered (usually because MIL has dropped her fork, or answered the phone wrong, or not cooked the potatoes the right way). (This have never happened in front of our children.)

DH knows that the first time he has one of these outbursts in front of our children, we will be leaving immediately, and I will never allow my children to see FIL again. I would actually like to never see him again NOW, but DH doesn't think that's fair as FIL is always lovely with the kids.

However, I have just discovered that FIL once hit MIL in front of the boys when DH was about 9yo. MIL's sister told me, and when I asked DH about it, it became apparent he had repressed the memory or something. He got upset and told me it was the worst moment of his life, but didn't really understand why he'd never told me himself. He said he hadn't thought about it for years and years.

After FIL hit MIL, she escaped to her family with the boys in tow. FIL followed and told the boys to choose between her and him. They all chose him. I assume out of fear, but also he has this weird hold over them all. None of them respect MIL even now. Anyway, as they all chose FIL, she went with them, scared of losing her children.

She was an alcoholic their entire childhoods, which upsets DH to this day when we talk about it. I think her alcoholism caused a lot of the arguments between FIL and MIL as the boys were growing up. I assume being married to this horrible pig was the reason she drank, but I find it hard to forgive her for driving them all around drunk every day. Actually, I blame FIL entirely, but I wish MIL had been strong enough to protect herself and them from him.

This is so long and complicated, and I haven't explained half of their awful family history and problems. But I need some advice; I have no one I can talk to about all of this. Now that I know he was violent at least one time (and I doubt very much it was a one-off that happened to be in front of the children), surely I can say to DH that we are not going there again? I don't want to put my children in danger obviously. But DH won't accept that we won't be visiting anymore, I doubt. How do I persuade him? How do I help him?

I am so surprised by this thread.

The 3 C's of alcoholism are read out on every single thread on here where a poster has an alcoholic partner

One being 'you did not cause this'

Yet it is fine, in this instance, and is actually being used as an excuse for the mother?

I think a lot of people used to drink drive...before it was illegal. Certainly in my childhood it was still ok to drive to the pub and get tanked up before driving home. Plenty of folk did it. It was legal for a married man to rape his wife during my dh's (and mine) childhood. I would still hate FIL if he did it to MIL during dh's childhood.

I agree with different.

Whatever your FIL did, did not cause her drinking problem.
Lots of women are abused and are not alcoholics.
And who knows what came first.
She can make choices, including to stop drinking.
And to leave him, particularly as the children have left home ages ago.

We don't know what started her drinking - but if you are under the thumb of a viciously unpleasant and bullying man, I could see someone turning to drink to numb the pain when in other circumstances, they would have left it well alone.

People who are totally under someone's thumb, the point comes that they cannot leave. They're too psychologically worn down. Its visible even on Mumsnet, so many people struggle badly to leave abusive relationships. Some can do it in the end, some can't.

This MIL tried to leave and the FIL had such a hold on the kids that they all chose him. Now you can argue that that means something was wrong with her - but the OP is very clear that the FIL is an entirely dominating and frankly, to use an old fashioned word, bad person who wants women to be silent kitchen-staff. If you weigh it up, it's unexplained why the kids chose him but it -is- clear that the FIL is pretty vile. And the one incident where he hit her that is clearly remembered - god knows how many more took place out of sight.

The MIL sadly sounds frankly unsaveable, because she doesnt sound like she can leave. Then worry about the alcohol (and yes i agree that driving with alcohol is uncondoneable).

Hopefully the OP's husband is not unsalvageable and they can hold their own ground. Good luck, OP

If you weigh it up, it's unexplained why the kids chose him

It isn't such a huge stretch to think that perhaps they choose him because of their mother's behaviour tho, is it? Perhaps they had memories of feeling unsafe in the car, and generally, because she was drunk. Perhaps they were ashamed of her?

Perhaps she herself was a violent drunk. Or she was so drunk she couldn't attend to their basic needs. We know that she started drinking in them morning & carried on until the FIL came home. How many times were they late for school because of it? How many times was she late picking the, up because of it?

We have absolutely NO insight into the dh's childhood, all we have is what a wannabe counsellor has eeked out of her dh, who by her own admittance has spent the whole of his childhood in the care of an alcoholic!

I think the op needs to stop digging, to be fair. She either settles for it as it is, or she tells the PIL that she isn't going anymore. But her constant need to fix this & getting her dh to recall painful memories isn't going to do him any good, or their marriage in the long run.

If her dh needs to explore his feelings, he should be able to do so in an controlled environment, without his kids in earshot, with a professional.

All through this thread the blame is squarely at the FIL door. Until I posted, I can't find one post that suggests that perhaps the FIL is the way he is, [apologies of I missed anything] because of years of living with an alcoholic. And I don't excuse his behaviour, he had choices too. But we are constantly telling women that their husbands alcoholism is not their fault, yet here, an alcoholic is being given an excuse over & over.

That would never happen if the roles were reversed. NEVER!!! Even if the wife was violent to her alcoholic dh, we would all be saying that is STILL isn't her fault he drinks etc.

Yet it is OK to blame a man for his wife's alcoholism.

Not fair play really, is it?

A few things seem clear to me on reading this thread.

1. Your DH's childhood was utterly fucked up and he should be settling in for a long series of counselling sessions to unpick it all. It's likely to cause him some serious unpleasantness in the future if he doesn't start working through this stuff. I doubt your marriage will survive him trying to sweep this under the rug. He has not escaped all of this unscathed.

2. You and your family should disengage from the toxic PIL. I don't care what did or didn't cause MIL's alcoholism, or whether FIL forced the DC to choose him over her - stop trying to reconstruct a past you had no part in. These people are a car crash - you and the DC should stay away. He already belittles you, she spreads nasty rubbish about you - what are they going to say about you to your DC? If he is a misogynist, well, he hates you, too, OP. Does your DH really think he should be exposing his wife and his daughters to this man? But first he needs to realise what his DF is. See point 1.

3. For your DH to admit that his father is the shocking arsehole that you and DSIL see, he would need to admit that he has been complicit in his mother's abuse, as it continues to this day (at least you believe it does). This is one hell of a thing to admit. Stop pushing him to this realisation as you are out of your depth. See point 1.

4. At heart, despite the complications, this is another Evil PIL thread. The answer to the Evil PIL thread is always the same: your DH needs to choose you over his Evil Parents. You and your DC are his family now. He needs to support you and defend you to them, and protect you from the Evil PIL. There's no way you can let him continue playing happy families with these people and taking your DC for the ride. If he agrees that he can continue to see PIL, but you and DC will not, then fine - that dodges the ultimatum. But if he won't agree that the DC stay away, then I fear it won't be long until it all blows up.

Sorry for being simplistic - I realise the situation is not simple.

Beiljaflor I see what you're saying but I think this family really needs for everything to blow up. It will give them all a chance to realign themselves. Counselling is great but will take years and removing himself from his family will probably just add to the trauma. Far better to bring it to a head, let there be a showdown, that way he is making a public statement which cannot be brushed under the carpet or deliberately misinterpreted.

It might also bring his DBs to his side or at least let them see that defiance doesn't end in tragedy and fear, it ends in justice.

My only experience is that you will find it very difficult to get your DH to reject his aging father, however horrendous he has been.

You also can't really help MIL more than you are doing.

I would continue to stand up to PIL as an example to your children and DH. The rest? I would accept as something you can't change.

I have a very angry FIL. Regular verbal outbursts. I stick up for my MIL whilst their own children walk out the room ie my DH and his brother. When I talk to DH I'm told I don't understand due to history in the marriage.

I totally disagree with this. But I'm dealing with grown adults. So I set an example to my own kids. And let FIL know his behavious is appalling. And my MIL is grateful. It's awful but it is the category of something I can't change.

Again, thank you, everyone, for your considered responses. Amazing how many of you have hit the nail on the head, and even those opinions that I don't think fit quite so well have given me a lot to think about.

What I take from this thread, loud and clear, is that I cannot fix anyone or anything. I can protect my children by perhaps slowly withdrawing from them, and acting in a reasonable manner around PIL so as to be a good example.

I can hope that DH one day decides to see a professional, but I'm not holding my breath, nor will I suggest it again. Did that once, was told it was out of the question. A deep mistrust of medical personel has also been passed on.

I fear that Meerka and unreal are right, though; we are going to have a huge argument at some point. FIL will likely provoke it if he feels we are withdrawing. Or I suppose it could come about from me/DH standing up for MIL. Whether or not any good will come of it, I don't know. Son 1 was ostracised from the family for two years, and no one was allowed to mention him. When they made up (very, very long story), it was as if nothing had happened, but FIL's hold over Son 1 is tighter than ever.

MIL won't leave. I don't think we can help there.

Oohdaddy that's what my brother did too. My father was also an unreasonable carmudgeon, my brother stood up to him when he shouted at his son, it really had a massive impact on his attitude to his grandchildren, nobody had ever confronted him before. Our mother always went quiet and let him terrorise us when we were little. All it took was an assertive confrontation.

The only thing I'd add to your summary, MilchMaid, is a conversation with your DH that goes:

• you have learnt a terrible relationship dynamic from childhood. You dismiss your mother as if she was nothing. To be clear, I will never tolerate that attitude if it is displayed towards me or our children and whilst I'm confident you will never do it, I wanted to have stated this up front.

At some point I think he really will need counselling but he will have to come to this on his own.

Thanks, tribpot. I appreciated your earlier comments, too.

I'm scared of standing up to FIL, I must admit. I am 99.9% sure I will have the backing of DH in the moment, but I am worried about the fallout from that, too.

In the cold light of day confronting a bully is something most of us are afraid of.
However, I have been in situations when I did confront the bullies, because I was sufficiently angry.

That also included ex-FIL, who had abusive tendencies (in fact, I'd class him as emotionally abusive of his wife).

What is son1's position now? He could be your best ally.

Mistrust of doctors is a classic trait of narcissists, they can't bear the fact that they are not in control.

I don't believe in the theory that families are fucked up forever, they are constantly shifting as new additions join and older ones leave or die. People can change if they want to.

Families like yours and mine with a central all powerful parents end up like that because those parents want to keep everything the same, they see their children as part of their design, not as indivuals. A healthy family has a constantly shifting structure and power balance.

Good luck

I think the most important thing is that the FIL doesn't model misogynistic behaviour in front of your DC. it will undermine you.

I think that will be the moment to speak out, to say "these are our children and this is what we're teaching them.".

His true colours will come out and then you will have the justification to leave.

milch don't get me wrong - I was scared stiff standing up to FIL too. He was very aggressive and pushed his face right up to mine in rage. I remained calm. Inside I was shaking, with palpitations. I am pregnant and feel quite vulnerable but I couldn't watch him bully MIL that way. It was disgusting.

Even worse was my sister in law's husband's reaction which was I had been disrespectful as it was his house. Even though he had reduced MIL to tears with his foul behaviour, the attitude was that we should not interfere. And leave the room.

I spoke to DH harshly that night and said he had to speak to his father. And DH did, in fairness, and things improved for a few days and now FIL is as bad as ever to MIL again. But interestingly, not in front of me.

He has now started on my two year old DD. wiped the floor with her last week saying she hadn't bonded with him like my other DC, that she was difficult, less loving. All of which is a load of crap - she just doesn't like him much. She is an absolute delight.

If he says it again then I will have to intervene - which I'm dreading - but what kind of man labels two year olds?

I also agree about letting your DH know this behaviour isn't acceptable or normal. My DH has definitely inherited some of his father's angry traits and I do have to let him know when it isn't OK. I'm determined my kids see me as strong and in an equal relationship.

Sorry - this is a self obsessed ramble on a thread about your issues. But hopefully it helps to know you aren't alone.

tribpot makes a really good point - essential - about a convo that you yourself will never put up with the kind of behaviour MIL does. You're clearly very different and have more steel in your spine but it's a good thing for your husband to jsut have that in the back of his mind - that you are very different and much stronger.

oohdaddypig,

Re your comment re your FIL:-
He has now started on my two year old DD. wiped the floor with her last week saying she hadn't bonded with him like my other DC, that she was difficult, less loving. All of which is a load of crap - she just doesn't like him much. She is an absolute delight.

If he says it again then I will have to intervene - which I'm dreading - but what kind of man labels two year olds?"

No to further visits; all bets are off now. If he is too difficult/toxic/abusive for YOU or your DH to deal with it'll be the same for you both vulnerable and defenceless children. Do not expose them further to this awful man, such people as well more often than not make out for being toxic grandparents as well.

In answer to your last question, a toxic and dysfunctional man. I would stay well away from him. If these people cannot or will not behave he gets to see none of you - end of.

attila you are right and reading your post makes me feel ashamed I didn't say more at the time.

The problem is my FIL is chronically seriously ill. I have only known him this way and I'm assured he wasn't always like this. I'm not entirely sure I believe it as his marriage had been so awful. Everyone tiptoes around him.

But he will likely not be here in a few years time. He is a real Jekyll and Hyde. He can be absolutely lovely - until something is said the wrong way or someone disagrees with him.

People who don't know him well think he is a lovely man. Others who do find him very very difficult. My own mother finds him difficult and cantankerous and was really upset after witnessing an outburst a few months ago.

So I live and let live. Until now it's not affected the kids. The attack against my toddler was only last week and I am still upset. I feel so sad on her behalf as she is just a lovely lovely little thing. He doesn't deserve her affection!

oohdaddypig

No more live and let live. That's also how such people get away with it for so long.

FIl may be ill but that's still no justification for him to be so abusive towards your two year old. I daresay as well he has always been abusive in nature given what you write about him and how people also tiptoe around him. Abusers too can be plausible to those in the outside world, its usually at home that their mask slips.

Where are your boundaries here?. This is already affecting you and it will affect your children over time. Reset them and make them a lot higher than they already are (they are far too low). Draw the line in the sand, he clearly cannot be trusted at all to be nice around your family now. What if he starts again on your 2 year old next visit, you or any other family members?. You will deeply regret ever going to see him at all.

He could also live for many years yet as well. You do not have to keep going back for potentially more of the same from him. Also your children will wonder why their mum and dad think its okay for you all to visit nasty granddad. You would not tolerate any of this from a friend, family are no different.

This is a really tragic situation. I don't blame for the MIL turning to drink. I think it's wrong for people to judge her for that unless they have been in an abusive marriage themselves. It is very common for abused women to turn to drink or narcotics as an escaping mechanism.

I would be extremely concerned in your situation. I am not trying to offend you whatsoever here, but it is hugely worrying that your husband considers his fathers behaviour to be normal. What does that mean for your own marriage? You might want to raise this point with him. If he considers his fathers behaviour acceptable, then would he treat you like that? Would he ever hit you in front of your children? Hopefully he will say "no of course not". In which case, why is it so acceptable for his FIL?

I think the only thing you can do is really stand up to this man whenever you are forced to be in his presence. He is a bully, and bullies only respond to strength. If he makes fun of your german you can always snidely offer to switch the conversation to english, if his second language is so much better than your own. That should shut him up.

Considering the history, I would probably only allow the children to spend time with the FIL if I was also there. This isn't about being controlling - this is about ensuring that your children aren't exposed to his behaviour. If you see it, you can call him out on it there and then, and then explain to your children later why what he did was so awful. Your husband can't guarantee you he will do that, since he refuses to recognises that his father behaves badly.

Atilla I respect your view but disagree that removing yourself actually helps as it simply shifts problems further down the line. Having seen various approaches which in my family's case meant most dcs going off to have breakdowns and years of therapy, diagnoses, labels etc I have come to the conclusion that a Jeremy Kyle showdown is sometimes the best approach. People don't like it, it causes anger and fury, tears and shock but when the dust settles there is a new understanding. In my case my older brothers intervention, followed by him being ostracised allowed me to stand up against my father and I am so very grateful. Sometimes it meant just ignoring him and like the school bully, when met with strength, he backed off. It was almost a necessary process.

The older generation should know when to step down and let the next generation take over. The failure of mine to do this has led to tragic consequences as siblings were set against each other while we clamoured for their attention.

oohdaddypig, sorry you are going through all that. Your FIL sounds like a horrible man, too. Attila is right; this kind of behaviour wouldn't be tolerated by any of us if it was a friend. We would cut our losses. Much harder with family, but the principle should still apply. What an evil man to start having a go at a two-year-old.

Lweji, Sameboat, you have helped strengthen my resolve When he next crosses the line, I am going to say something. The consequences will determine our next move, I guess.

We are due a weekend there in July, and then in August DS is being christened in England, and they are coming. Son 1 and GF are also coming (all four in one car driving one thousand kilometers ...), assuming GF hasn't decided this family is too fucked up to join. My family can't stand him - they got the measure of him awfully quickly. He can speak English, MIL can't, and he NEVER translates the conversations for her, ever. I spend the entire time going backwards and forwards so she can join in, and DH helps to some extent, but FIL just dominates as usual and ignores her. Which makes it awfully apparent for anyone present just what a bastard he is, despite the charming exterior.

So yeh, really not looking forward to DS's christening, which is so sad. But maybe my new-found resolve, alongside being on my home turf and in my language, will help me stand up to him. KayKay, I am going to try that strategy next time he's rude about my German. I would speak more English there if MIL understood, but as she doesn't I stick with German (unless talking to the DC).

Unreal, that's interesting about narcissists not liking doctors. In general he knows more about anything than any expert, never admitting EVER to being wrong. Once I corrected him on where Mont Blanc was (he swore blind it was in Switzerland), and when we discovered I was right, he was beside himself. Twas very funny. It has obviously never been mentioned again ...

Also a good point about domineering figures in families trying to keep the dynamic the same, and seeing their children as part of their design and not individuals. I have often thought this, although never quite so succinctly! FIL's family, as he sees is, is him at the centre with the four boys as one unit under him. They are his minions and are to do whatever he says. MIL and any wives of sons are peripheral, useful for bearing children and general wife work. He doesn't see each son as having his own life and interests separate to him. In fact, at our wedding he gave a speech (don't ask) telling me that the brothers' relationship with each other would trump our marriage every time and I shouldn't expect to be number one. I paraphrase, yet kid you not.

Son's 1 position is unfortunately closer than ever to FIL. His backstory is long and complicated, but basically he had a girlfriend that FIL disapproved of. Because he chose the GF and not FIL, he was ousted from the family and not spoken of or to for two years. I came on the scene towards the end of these two years. Unfortunately, this GF did in fact hurt Son 1 very badly, and when it ended, FIL accepted Son 1 back into the family as if nothing had happened. However, he felt more than vindicated, and has lauded this in Son 1's face most recently in terms of the new GF (who we all like because she's lovely). Son 1 is now apparently reluctant to ignore FIL's meddling advice, in case he is right again, I suppose. DH absolutely needs to speak to him, but he's dragging his feet. I am trying not to push it, because Son 1's relationships really are nothing to do with us, so it is up to DH if he wants to help his brother. Sadly, I almost hope the GF (who I really like) leaves Son 1, and soon, because I don't think he is going to change any time soon.

Milchmaid, I'm glad I made some sense, it was quite good for me to make sense of it in this way Now that I can take a step back and see how it is.

I think the best thing you can do is to try and arrange to meet BILs families directly, bypass the boss and build a relationship even if you don't particularly get on. You need to spend time with each other outside the context of the FILs family unit. He will absolutely hate it.

I like that idea

Just an update from me. PIL visited today and FIL was lovely to kids - both of them. His illness is terrible so I ended up wracked with guilt that I had moaned about him.

Really hoping overall improvement continues. Although I need to speak to MIL privately to find out if he has been better at home with her, too.

Maybe bullying types just need to be stood up to and not allowed to get away with it.

Appreciate your advice. OP - you sound very strong in your resolve and I hope you get some improvement. This has been an interesting thread.