FIL not just a misogynist; he also hit MIL. What do I do?

[MilchMaid]

Name-changed to protect the guilty.

DH and I have been married for nearly three years and we have two children (2yo and 4mo).

My FIL is a horrible man. Ninety-five per cent of the time, he is terribly charming, always polite on the surface, but actually he is a deeply racist, misoynistic man. MIL has been worn down by him over the many years and has no opinions of her own, is shouted at if she tries to say anything different, treated like a slave, etc. She has no friends and doesn't talk to her family anymore because of FIL meddling. (We keep up with her side of the family, but FIL hates me us for it.) She's also not always very nice to me, but I know it's because FIL doesn't like me.

DH is the second of four boys. It is only since we got together that he has started to work out what his father is actually like. He no longer defers to FIL's opinion on every decision we make, unlike the other three sons. He also understands that the way FIL has treated MIL their whole married life is beyond the pale. He still finds it very difficult to stand up to FIL though, although we have made some progress over this last year.

I have never witnessed FIL being violent, but I have seen him have violent outbursts when angered (usually because MIL has dropped her fork, or answered the phone wrong, or not cooked the potatoes the right way). (This have never happened in front of our children.)

DH knows that the first time he has one of these outbursts in front of our children, we will be leaving immediately, and I will never allow my children to see FIL again. I would actually like to never see him again NOW, but DH doesn't think that's fair as FIL is always lovely with the kids.

However, I have just discovered that FIL once hit MIL in front of the boys when DH was about 9yo. MIL's sister told me, and when I asked DH about it, it became apparent he had repressed the memory or something. He got upset and told me it was the worst moment of his life, but didn't really understand why he'd never told me himself. He said he hadn't thought about it for years and years.

After FIL hit MIL, she escaped to her family with the boys in tow. FIL followed and told the boys to choose between her and him. They all chose him. I assume out of fear, but also he has this weird hold over them all. None of them respect MIL even now. Anyway, as they all chose FIL, she went with them, scared of losing her children.

She was an alcoholic their entire childhoods, which upsets DH to this day when we talk about it. I think her alcoholism caused a lot of the arguments between FIL and MIL as the boys were growing up. I assume being married to this horrible pig was the reason she drank, but I find it hard to forgive her for driving them all around drunk every day. Actually, I blame FIL entirely, but I wish MIL had been strong enough to protect herself and them from him.

This is so long and complicated, and I haven't explained half of their awful family history and problems. But I need some advice; I have no one I can talk to about all of this. Now that I know he was violent at least one time (and I doubt very much it was a one-off that happened to be in front of the children), surely I can say to DH that we are not going there again? I don't want to put my children in danger obviously. But DH won't accept that we won't be visiting anymore, I doubt. How do I persuade him? How do I help him?

Goodness, Cookie. That sounds horrifying. Thank you, and everyone else, for your thoughts and advice.

I think setting boundaries and leaving as a family if these are overstepped is a very good idea. DH has already agreed to that in principle, but we haven't yet decided what these boundaries should be. Our perceptions of what's acceptable aren't quite aligned yet, as someone upthread mentioned. (Sorry, on phone, can't check.)

It is complicated, and I don't think I've explained it all very well. It all comes out so black and white when I type it here, but there are so many shades of grey.

People upthread said I'm too involved, and I think they're probably right. I've had many a sleepless night thinking about it all. But this is our life; PIL are a constant presence in our lives, either on the phone the whole time, or we're there, or we're with other family members and PIL are discussed. I would love to see them only twice a year and not think about them the rest of the time, but it's not going to happen. Somehow we have to deal with it, otherwise FIL will weasle his way back into every decision we as a family take.

I appreciate all the responses. It's given me lots to think about.

I can only echo others on here...I too think you are overly involved in the lives and relationships of your in laws. I agree with your sentiments entirely, but I can't agree with the way you are forcing this on your husband.

You do come across very right thinking though...I like the sound of you.

In short - the only power you really have is to decide what you will and will not tolerate. You don't have to be with them all the time. You can be doing something else that day...with or without the children.

pictish, I've been in tears today thinking that I'm (unwittingly) hurting DH. That was a kind thing to say, so thank you

I've in law problems and it does affect everything no matter how hard you try not to let it, it sadly does.
I do feel incredibly sad for your mil, her life has been an existence. The alcohol problem was probably a blessing to fil as it makes her look bad to everyone.

To a certain degree the past is the past and there's nothing you can do to change that, what you can control is what your children see of the future. So, if fil talks badly to you or your mil you can end the visit for your childrens sake. If everyone's talking over mil (inc your husband) you can end the visit. If your strong enough for the fall out say the truth, if your not make an excuse and explain it to your husband later.

I can fully understand why your OH won't want to cut with his parents, but you as a family could start to distance and detach yourselves, so that you don't feel the impact so much, particularly your children.

Would he be willing to visit less or not take all phone calls?

I totally agree with your approach Milchmaid, to confront both of them when their behaviour is bad. Be very clear and honest. I had a recent minor run in with a relative and completely stopped her in her tracks. I think it's the only way for your sanity and his.

The great thing about this approach is that you know you are doing and saying the right thing, their world is fucked up, not yours.

You will also be modelling decent behaviour to his DBS when they are there. Be prepared for oma and opa to try and divide and conquer so see more of your bils than the grandparents, build the bond between uncles and you might find they are having similar issues.

Your comment about blaming her for driving the kids while drunk is so unfair it actually lessens my sympathy for you tbh. Chances are she was driven to drink by her abusive husband and probably didn't think about being over the limit the next day when driving.

Until I read that I was going to ask if you were in a position to offer your MIL somewhere to stay for a while if she felt brave enough to walk away from the man who has ruined her life.

Your MIL deserves credit for putting her children first by going back to her husband with the children instead of letting him take them, even though the best option would obviously have been to stay the hell away from him.

Did FIL hit his wife in front of your DH as you imply or in front of your children as you later try to use as justification for cutting contact?

Your DH should man up and tell his brother what his father is trying to do regarding his relationship.

Could you stop talking to him when he starts talking over everyone and not answer his point?

Mind you, probably wouldn't notice or care and would be happy he has shut you all up.

It'sfab I am surprised that more people on here aren't slating the alcoholic mother for drunk driving.

Of course mil deserves sympathy but I can see why OP is angry with her for doing that.

I can see too but the OP hasn't shown any understanding of the fact the MIL was probably drinking to cope with living with a bully and probably had no idea she was over the limit the next day. You still get people now who drink in the evening then drive the next day and are shocked when found to be over the limit.

Drinking the morning after is not the same as drinking that night then driving home.

I feel sorry for your mil, what an miserable life she has put up with for so long. She actually did manage to leave him once but her own children chose their father over her so she again put them first and went back to the household where no one has respect for her.

I am sure she drank to make herself feel better for how shit her life was/is. Yes I wonder if she had a daughter maybe an female would be more loyal and see right through her father behaviour and help?

She properly bad mouthed you op because her husband dislikes you, she has been in this cycle for years and he won't allow her to get close to a strong woman like you.

Depending on OP's dh's age, I think a lot of people used to drink drive...before it was illegal. Certainly in my childhood it was still ok to drive to the pub and get tanked up before driving home. Plenty of folk did it.
Given how commonplace it was back then, it doesn't seem quite so shocking to me that the mil did this too.

Think that's a bit of a red herring tbh.

If it hasn't come across that I have a lot of sympathy for MIL, then I really am doing a cackhanded job of explaining everything. Sorry. I am absolutely certain she was driven to drink by being married to FIL, although I don't think she had a very happy childhood either, by all accounts. I feel dreadfully sorry for her.

I stand by what I said originally though, which is that I am also angry (whether or not I have the right to be) that she put the boys in so much danger and didn't protect them from him. But I don't see how she could have done anything differently, other than leaving him, which she couldn't do.

However, when I said she was driving the children around drunk, I meant it. She started drinking in the mornings once FIL had gone to work, but before the boys were at school. She drank straight vodka and other spirits throughout the day. And she only stopped shortly before FIL got home each evening. Then FIL would arrive, realise she was blind drunk, and the evening would be spent with him screaming at her. DH cannot remember a week day in his entire childhood that was not basically like that. (She never drank at the weekends, and she quit completely when FIL retired nearly 15 years ago. She has been having the odd beer in the evenings at least since I've been on the scene though, so five years, which causes palpable tension but no one ever says anything. In fact, she gets even more ignored.)

One of these screaming sessions culminated in FIL hitting her. All four boys were there. She tried to leave him, and he manipulated her into coming back. I'm sure he used her alcoholism against her - something like she would never see the DSs if they divorced.

I only found out about this incidence of violence at the weekend, although I have known about the alcoholism etc. for a few years. The fact that I now know he was physically violent was the reason for my OP. But having reflected on what everyone has said, I'm coming to the conclusion that it's almost irrelevant. FIL is a vile pig, and he's scary. The minute he has one of his outbursts in front of our DC, we will be out of there. And we won't be going back. I think we (DH and I) need to be stronger in sticking up for MIL when FIL talks over her or is horrible to her, so that our children at least learn that we don't accept it, even if we can't change it.

When he makes his racist and/or misogynist comments/jokes, we also need to say something, I think. Usually I am stunned into silence that anyone would say such things, and as I say, I'm not really quick enough off the mark to make a withering remark back in German or English. And if we get into a debate, he talks round in circles until he decides he's won and wanders off.

We're under 30, PIL are in their 60s, if that is still relevant.

I have also often wondered what would have been the case if they'd had a daughter. I can't imagine she would have had a very happy life, to be honest. They have one female grandchild (my DD) and so far, she is a delight to FIL. But as she grows up and starts to be less biddable, I imagine things will change. God forbid she gets into a Gymnasium (top-level secondary school here) - women don't need an education to stay in the kitchen and produce offspring, so why would we be supporting that? He has openly said on more than one occasion that women shouldn't go to uni because it is a waste of resources. (The resources being her fertility, not money.) My degree is laughable, apparently.

You're headed for a showdown with them, milchmaid. Either the FIL will win, and you'll end up as quiet at your MIL when around him and him behaving like this around your children, or you'll stand up to him and then you will be ostracised and seen as the source of all evil.

Im afraid your husband will have to make a choice. Worst case, that means you have to accept that he might be too cowed / brainwashed to choose you and his family.

I think you need to sit down with him, work out what's likely to happen and FIL's responses and then work out how to handle it. What your FIL will likely say, the sort of thing you will say in response and the sort of thing your husband will say in response.

There will be storms.

Before that point though, it might be an idea for your husband to point out to his brother exactly what a smart gf he has atm, and what's going to happen if his father succeeds in turning her away.

I feel very sorry for your MIL. Enablers are often the one people are most angry with but the fact is that they have often tried to stand up to the bully and been ground down utterly until they are a soulless shadow of the person they could have been and perhaps once were.

As another poster here often writes, if a parent is toxic, they're too toxic for their grandchildren too. If the storms mean that you and your husband go no contact, it may not be the worst thing in the world. As in, atm, what exactly is any good about their contact with their grandparent? It would certainly not be a good idea to let them go only with your husband because then they will see a lovely relationship modelled of bullying and silencing the only woman around.

Btw if your FIL is like that, it seems likely that any girl child born woudl have been cowed the way your MIL is. Either that or she'd go off the rails.

Good luck. If your husband goes that often to see them, you're kind of forced into this situation. I think you've got a fight on your hands that you didnt expect, don't want but have to step up to.

ANd you absolutely need to get your husband on your side working togehter as a team, if it's at all possible.

Excellent post from Meerka, although I would not put dh in a position of choosing between you.

I think you should read up about narcissists OP and emotional abuse. Once you understand the patterns you can easily predict these peoples behaviour. It will help dp a lot to see this in context. His father is just one of many many narcissists in this world and once you understand them you can read them like a book and their behaviour is easier to handle without guilt or remorse.

Quite often these families end up in Jeremy Kyle type showdowns after years of getting family members embroiled in battles (they are warmongers) it blows up and many people are hurt.

The key is to not allow them to come between him and his siblings. He will try it and there might be conflict between them, possibly for years, but try and play the long game. One day they will face the truth and that's when healing can start.

i dont mean an ultimatum as such up front "your family or me". It's more that tyrants don't like people standing up to them and the consequences may well unfold so that her husband is put in a stark position. It might not happen that way too, but as I say, tyrants don't like the chaff rising up and having minds of their own.

And totally agree that if possible, stay united with his siblings. It may not be possible becauise it sounds like they're all dominated by him.

And MIL's alcoholism is almost certainly a result of this man's abuse.

I can't imagine what it must be like to have someone turn your own children against you. It would destroy anyone.

Some validation from her son will really help but she must be fairly damaged and her response has so far been confused. It might take a while for that relationship to even begin to heal.

You can't fix your FIL. You can't fix your MIL. You can't fix your DH's relationships and family dynamics. You can't make him see it the way you see it.

The only thing you can control is how much contact you and your kids have with them.

Meerka it may be that FIL will make DH choose as a emotional blackmail. I wouldn't put anything past this man. But hopefully MIL, DBS and children all start spending time together without him.

You say nothing of FIL & his battles in having to live with an alcoholic.

Not that it excuses his violence & temper.

But living with an alcoholic that drives your kids around when drunk isn't easy [and I would be ropeable if my dh did that with ours - and he doesn't have a drink problem] & I am shocked that you focus on the one incident of him hitting her, when she put her children at risk, everyday.

Drinking the morning after is not the same as drinking that night then driving home.

itsfab, alcoholics don't just drink at night. They drink constantly.

This is perfect.

You can't fix your FIL. You can't fix your MIL. You can't fix your DH's relationships and family dynamics. You can't make him see it the way you see it.