Love my grown DSS to bits but REALLY disagree with this attitude

[stickybandit]

In a nutshell, 2 years ago he was on/off with a girl a couple of years younger. He was 20 at the time and was (still is) working away.

She got pregnant. He bought teddies and got excited. Then she finished with him and got with someone else. Refused to do a DNA test and cut all contact. DSS has never seen baby.

Fast-forward 2 years. Her relationship has ended. Two days later, she contacted DSS and told him she's not after money but if he wants to start seeing baby, she would be happy to facilitate it.

His response was to block her number and say 'she wants me back and she's trying to ruin my relationship. I don't want to know'. I'm very uneasy with this, I've expressed how I feel (he should ask for DNA test now) but I can't go up against his mum who completely agrees with him. (He's now in a serious relationship with a different woman and they've just moved in together. His girlfriend also wants him to have nothing to do with the baby.)

I'm just wondering if I'm really on my own with this? I really HATE the 'she should have been on the pill anyway' attitude of people. It's a dual responsibility, even if it's inconvenient.

To get a DNA test against the mother's wishes (when the child was born or now, unless she has changed her mind about this) would require a court order. Legal representation to do this would be likely to cost £££'s, money that OP's DSS would not get back if the test proved he was not the father.

Two years ago he would have got legal aid. I'm not saying he's "the baddy". I'm saying if she stopped him seeing his baby 2 years ago that is bad. He didn't bother trying 2 years ago which is just as bad. Now she is relenting and he is not so I have more sympathy with her than him.

It's the 'she stopped him seeing the baby two years ago so she deserves everything she gets' crap that I object to because it's about the child not the egos of the adults.

to be honest, I completely understand how the DSS feels & I wouldn't criticise him for it. His hand may have to be forced to react differently. I think his response is how most ppl would react if treated that way.

I wouldn't be too certain about legal aid covering costs, even two years ago. DS was also a teenage dad, and the relationship didn't last, though they were fairly amicable - until he had a relationship with someone his ex didn't like. Dgs hadn't even been introduced to the new gf but ex withheld contact, so ds saw a lawyer. He could get LA for lawyers letters, but not for court action (and there was no paternity dispute, he's named on the birth cert and has PR).

So, a 20 yo man, with what earnings? (DS had a pt, zero hours contract) is expected to ante up however many hundreds, maybe thousands of pounds, to get court-ordered DNA test (about £300) and is berated because he just couldn't?

It's not always as straightforward as Offred thinks.

(Delighted to say ds and his ex are now brilliantly co-operative and mutually supportive, and dgs massively benefits from this.)

I'm not saying going to court is straightforward. You used to apply for legal aid in stages, it's normal not to get to go to court without trying letters first. Either way there's a whole lot before going to court which he didn't actually do. He did nothing.

I was trying, actually, to say this isn't as straightforward as the mother saying he couldn't see the child and that meaning he has been cut out and she is entirely to blame which is what some people weirdly seem to be claiming as though dads are only dads if the mums say they can be.

Oldlady thats great that its all been resolved and your grandson has 2 lparents, who getvon better, I think we under estimate the power some women hold over fathers of their children they take the childcaway on a whim they dislke new girlfriends they find new boy friends they dont care a jot for a little persons well being, op I hope your stepson comes round to seeing his baby the csa used to pay for dna not sure if that stil happens

Mrsjayy, it's a beauty to behold! They now get along so well that ds has actually babysat for his ex when she had a special date with her new dp; and I don't mean "looked after his own son", I mean "looked after his own son and his ex's baby by her new dp". I'm hugely proud of both of them, they really work well as co-parents. Dgs is coming up to five now and has started trying to play them off against each other, but it just doesn't work, because they communicate, and back each other up.

But that didn't happen overnight, and the road wasn't entirely smooth, as evidenced by the fact he had to call the lawyers in, in the first place. He already had a relationship with his son, he and his ex had lived together for a (short) while; the young man in the OP hasn't even seen "his" child, and can't be certain the child is his. The mother refused a DNA test, and it would have taken a court order, costing thousands the young man probably didn't have, to get one. I can quite understand why he's turning his face away now.

At the same time, I can't help feeling that he'll change his mind in the future. Curiosity, if nothing else; is the child his? The measure of the mother will be proven then. Will she allow a DNA test? Will she allow a relationship to develop? Or will she adopt the attitude that he "had his chance", and deprive the child of a father?

I'm not saying anyone is the "baddie" here, everyone was/is very young, even if legally adult. It's a difficult situation all round.

I can see from his point of view why he wants nothing to do with this girl or the baby. No bond formed, a new relationship which would be destabilised if he was seeing a former gf, the possibility ex gf would just pull the same stunt after he had formed a bond, and it might not even be his child without DNA evidence.

Would it be good from the child's side if it formed a bond with the supposed father only to lose him or find out he wasn't his father.

If you DSS has no wish to enter this minefield then it has to be his decision. I think he is right to be very suspicious of a woman who dumps him and immediately is with someone else (maybe the real father) refused a DNA test, possibly looking for CSA without this test if DSS accepts the child is his. Horrendous mess, maybe just best left and if the child wants to get in touch in the future it can and establish who is the father. Maybe sooner if DSS changes his mind, but it smells fishy to me as I'm sure it does to others involved.

I think 'we' as a society massively overestimate the 'power' mothers have over fathers actually. Fact is raising a child is a hard and thankless grind and IMO many men who walk away from children when obstacles are put in their way are quite glad of having the ability and the excuse tbh.

I know men who haven't walked away when the obstacles have been put in their way and its been a 18 year plus nightmare. Which is why I would express caution about dealing with a woman who denies access, denies a DNA test, introduces another daddy, and then two days after that's over, is looking for the old one back.

I don't think your average mother has 'power' over your average father, (sadly) but I do think society (mumsnet) massively overestimates the power of your average 20 year old working class male in these kind of circumstances.

I don't have sympathy at all for the view that doing the right thing by your child is hard so it's ok to do the wrong thing and I don't understand why that is only applied to the man in this situation either.

Working class men don't have fewer rights they have less money. Two years ago the dss would have been entitled to legal aid if he had gone as far needing legal support but he didn't get anywhere near that, he did nothing because, I think, his dad and his family clearly think it's ok for fathers to walk away and that contraception is the woman's job entirely and unplanned pregnancy the woman's fault entirely.

I feel sorry for your dss.

The mother has been very selfish and unkind in her past actions and I certainly don't blame him for his reactions.

However there is the child to consider, so id advise dss to take some legal advise about getting a DNA test first up to confirm.

And then go down legal pathways for contact and building a relationship with the child. I would suggest avoiding contact with the mother as much as possible as she sounds like hard work (also what will she do when she get into another relationship, end contact again! ) So he does need to seek some legal advise about this situation, as it would be terrible to turn his back on his child as obviously in the early days he wanted to be an involved father. It was just the mothers actions that prevented this from happening.

To be fair to your DSS he found out he was going to be a dad and was pleased and excited that he was going to be the father to a child. He was going to have a baby, be a parent to a new life. then had the rug pulled from under him mostly cruelly. He's had to get over that. Know that there is a baby out there that might be his but the mum has blocked him from finding out or having contact. He's probably does his utmost over that past 3 years to convince himself this is not his child. He's now moved on and found a new partner and this gets landed in his lap. I can understand he has not had a very positive reaction to it.

I don't really have any advice. I hope it works out for your all, especially the child.

Two years ago, it's perfectly possible that this young man would not have had access to LA to press his case; ds didn't about three years ago, and he actually had a relationship with his ds, was named on the birth cert and had PR, none of which applies to the young man in the op.

If the mother wanted to "do the right thing" for her child, she should have agreed to the DNA test, and encouraged a relationship between her child and the (proven) father. She didn't; she refused the DNA test (why? Was she unsure herself? That's not evil per se but is potentially dishonest) and then cut contact.

No-one has behaved with much honour in this case. The child is the one who suffers, because s/he hasn't a clue who daddy is, and is being denied a relationship with daddy because mummy is a bit, erm, undecided.

Mummy needs to allow a DNA test. If Op's dss is daddy, he needs to man up and accept responsibility.

But mummy needs to take that first, vital step.

But he was entitled to legal aid for letters and not to immediately proceed to court. It's normal to have to take steps to avoid court before being able to go to court as far as I know. That isn't the same as not being entitled to legal aid and this, as you say, is a different situation.

Many working class males would not dream of going to the police or using their "entitlement to legal aid for letters". How would they go about doing that?
It's not just about the money, it takes a massive amount of confidence and entitlement for a young man to try to oppose a woman who is saying 'fuck off I don't want to see you again" and "it's not your baby anyway, it's got a new daddy"

The op hasn't said she said the baby wasn't his or that he couldn't see it. She said she refused a DNA test and cut all contact.

This is a civil law matter, nothing to do with the police who are for criminal law.

I'm not sure that it is true at all that many working class men wouldn't dream of taking steps like trying to make a contact arrangement with the mum, going to CAB, trying a law centre, phoning coram, speaking to a solicitor. I see many in CAB actually.

Are you meaning to imply that working class men care less about their children than other men?

You know I'm not, you cheeky cah.

I'm saying the obstacles will seem very huge to them. I know in my family, if a woman blocked contact at the pregnancy stage, there probably would be a feeling of, 'ok it's her decision, you have to get on with it,' and anything else would be seen as hounding or bullying her.

I would have mixed feelings about encouraging fighting for access if it were my son in this position. if the woman's always got other daddies on the scene, would only let him see kid eow, etc, I would wonder what's the point, youll never get any real say in the childs care or the decisions, youll always be unwelcome, that's not being a real father...

There is a big difference between a mewling baby and a cute little boy chasing a ball in the park.

As far as DSS knows this is a mewling baby. When he realizes he is more interesting than that and that he can actually interact with him he might change his mind.

But there is no guarantee that the DM will improve in her behavior, she prob will, but there could be a life time of custody battles, her using the child as a pawn because she feels her hand is being forced, her causing damage to his future relationships.

I would step warily.