Has anyone heard of Alexithymia or am I cluching at straws?

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Me and DH have always had arguements. Been married for 5 years and not sure that we every should have as we have such a different way of communicating. I have a very votaile temper and am very empathic, but he is a defensive aggressive arse who will can not have a proper discussion (We have just had another arguement - can you tell?).

Anyway, while 'cooling down' I have realised that he just does not register emotion when we discuss emotive topics. He can not understand that rudeness, sarcasm, irritation or contempt are inappropriate when talking to me about something I am clearly upset about or even to DD (aged 2!!!).
He makes "jokes" which are nasty, uses a contemptious tone of voice and generally shows no caring of things that are clearly upsetting. And does not understand why this upset me so much.

So a simple discussion about food turns into a horrible world-war-3-type argument. I am no way innocent and blameless in this, as my temper is horrible, but is definitely provoked by his unkind way of talking to me.

Anyway, thinking about this I came up with the theory that either he is a complete nasty arse OR that he is missing some sort of link between words and feelings (either what caused them or their effect). He is kind man in general, but has big problems expressing how he feels and gets angry instead.

While investigating on the internet (as you do) I came across alexithymia. Is anyone else together with someone like this? Am I just too sensitive (one of his theories)? Or is alexithymia a viable explanation that I can work with?

melted you are totally right. There are plenty of other reasons totally diagnosed and understandable why someone would display behaviours such as stonewalling. And it doesn't make the person abusive. It makes people who have some serious issues displaying unwanted behaviours. And wo the will of hurting the other person.

And YY to the fact that everyone will have a different idea of what is unacceptable behaviour! And about what they are happy to accept and why.

Yes we got that message that you think the OP's DH is abusive and quite a few of us have also being trying to explain you (and the OP) that maybe it isn't as simple that!

The reality is though that neither yourself not me can actually tell for sure. Only the OP can.

because out of the house he can control his vile temper and treat others with respect and politeness

But she is not treating HIM in the way a professional would either. I bet she wouldn't have shouted and lost her temper with her boss, even if IF her boss was being a bit vile and contemptuous. We are most relaxed in our closest relationships, which can also bring out the worst.

OP, it reminds me a little of myself and dh. I would watch it though with the kids, it can make them insecure. Dh can be very contemptuous and I get very aggressive. We're both very emotional. Fireworks. I also find it hard to process anyone else's feelings when I am angry. Isn't that normal? It sounds like you both get angry easily, but perhaps his anger is less of an 'outburst' and more sarcastic/ mean. It's still anger, it still means he is out of control.

I think you both need to try and get to a point where you can discuss things at another time if you feel it's getting heated. One, or both of you, needs to say, "We'll talk later."

If that is enough rationale for you to tolerate abusive treatment then that's entirely your judgement and your prerogative. However, I hope you would also be able to understand that, if I'm being subjected to abusive treatment or I am seeing others being mistreated, I will not waste my time, harm my health or put my safety in jeopardy trying to understand meanings and reasons.

I have no issues with you stating the above. Free speech and all that. I do have an issue though with you stating something blatantly wrong like “well if he can be normal with colleagues and neighbours but is abusive to you, that just pure and simple choice, it’s not a disorder”

That is just wrong.

Ask a Sabine Dardenne or Nasascha Kampush if they ever displayed an emotionally abusive trait since they achieved freedom, and ask them if that behaviour was pure and simple choice.

Things aren't anywhere near as black and white as you are attempting to portray here. Not where real MH/disorders/ are concerned.

OP, does he ever acknowledge that he was out of order AFTER the event. Does he ever apologise? Does he ever see the way he reacts is not right? Can he understand how your feelings were hurt when he is not in the middle of it all? I think this is key really.

" even in the receiving end , they are actually feel different. Not nice but not like that person was there just to put you down and hurst you. "

...That's very true...

Partly perhaps because not only do they have reactions that we find off, they so often misunderstand what we do too (I also had the situation when DP didn't get I was joking and actually got angry once, when I swear it would have been obvious to absolutely anyone NT that it was a joke); When DP talks about his work colleagues and situations at work, I can see he struggles with understanding people's intentions, and it affects his reactions; Obviously some things aren't a problem for him - as I said, when there is a template; so a child misbehaving in class, he would know how to deal with it nicely because there's books about that, but a colleague not doing what he thought he ought to have done, that might take him by surprise and make him angry... (then he might or might not be able to stop himself from saying something cutting)

DP sees behaviours that he considers 'wrong' , he reacts, then (weeks later, AND if promted to do so by a discussion or a problem arising from said reaction) reflects on his reactions, and becomes more open-minded about the behaviour - but he will always have these first reactions... although - maybe not, as he starts to see patterns... but it's the fact that he tries to change, and clearly struggles anyway, that, to me, means it's not abuse... There's also his upbringing to blame a bit (his parents were very critical of him and anyone...); If he wasn't trying to understand himself I would absolutely not be with him - but I knew AS was the root of it.

"Does he ever see the way he reacts is not right? Can he understand how your feelings were hurt when he is not in the middle of it all?"

Again if he doesn't see and understand as yet, I think it's the case of being specific, such as stating that to you OP, a put down does not signify the end of an argument, (I guess that's what he uses them for?), they start new ones because they have the effect of making you bloody angry, and that talking things through, no matter how irritating to him, is the only way to resolve problems...

I guess I'm just thinking of how I'd put things to my DP - or my son!

mountains, you agree with the statement - " even in the receiving end , they are actually feel different. Not nice but not like that person was there just to put you down and hurst you. "

But I am wondering, in the absence of a diagnosis, how on earth would you know? Would it not just all feel the same?

But I am wondering, in the absence of a diagnosis, how on earth would you know? Would it not just all feel the same?

A very interesting question...

In my experience a diagnosis does help, but also sometimes just a strong gut feeling of "they're not being this way/acting this way, just to be a bastard, it's like they can't help but be this way" also goes a long way to helping deal with very difficult people. I have also read a lot over the years and know unhealthy coping mechanisms are not easy to change, sometimes not even easy to accept that they are unhealthy.

I have a new female friend in my life for about the last year, I am quite sure she is on the brink of getting a diagnosis after about 9 months intensive work with 2 psychs. I suspect she has a personality disorder. She definitely has PTSD and depression. She can be quite passive aggressive, stone walls a lot, takes offense very easily, has very unhealthy/self destructive coping mechanisms, to be around she can be hard work. I have a gut feeling about her, that while she can be hard work to be around that it's not at all just a simple choice for her just to chose to be different, she (I am quiet sure) has a MH disorder. Knowing that while no one holds a gun at her head and makes her be passive aggressive, knowing that ultimately only she can help herself, but also knowing that her "choices" are not the same as the simple choice I make this evening to have a carb/calorie laden meal instead of a healthy one, goes along way with me to help empathise with her or people in similar situations. I also know her childhood was quite hideous and abusive too. Doesn't give her a free pass to be an arse, no, but helps me see where she is coming from and know she doesn't have the same level of self awareness/self control that I do.

I don't deal well at all with abusive arses who are just abusive because they can be. They get very short shrift from me.

I do feel however a lot of empathy with people who have genuine difficulty in relationships due to a mh disorder. That doesn't mean I will tolerate anything/everything. It just means I can empathise somewhat.

Blue the only thing I can say is that it feels different. Not from a cognitive pov where you can explain why someone is behaving in a certain way so you analyse it and react differently to it. It just feels different and at the same time just as unacceptable lol.

But it's this feeling that it was different that made me look into things, learn about AS, had my dc diagnosed and improve my marriage no end.

Maybe it's an issue with empathy and the ability to 'feel' another person feeling?

It also raise the issue of diagnosis and whether having one as an adult is necessary or not. There is a good thread on that subject going atm.

Thank you. I read the description on the link posted earlier in the discussion, and it actually reminded me quite a lot in some of it of my (separated) husband. But living with him was like being steam-roller-ed over in the end, and there are other things which make me feel that an Asperger's diagnosis would be too simple an answer, some of what he did felt sadistic sometimes, but also I am very empathic and had bad boundaries, so we were possibly a bad combination.

So, my question was more in line with how do I know if I missed something (and therefore there could have been a different outcome)? This is not something I would have thought of, I just could cope less and less.

Anyway, not to hi-jack the thread, just that some of this rings quite loud bells.

DaVinci, I really like how you put that, and can relate to it myself. It does just feel^ different. And I also think that not everyone will have the ability to distinguish between an abusive arse who is just an abusive arse, and someone being an abusive arse because they have a mh condition. Although I don't know you from Adam, I also suspect that you have quite firm and healthy boundaries in place in your life too.

Backtracking through quite a lot...

If you are hiding from the neighbours and worrying about your daughter because of his behaviour does it matter what label you give him ?

You can either live like this, or not. You can choose to stand by while your children are subjected to it, or not.

What else is there to say ? If he needs help/treatment/diagnosis/whatever that is not your job. He can find all that whilst he is not making you and your dc unhappy and treading on eggshells.

If you are hiding from the neighbours and worrying about your daughter because of his behaviour does it matter what label you give him ? You can either live like this, or not. You can choose to stand by while your children are subjected to it, or not. What else is there to say ? If he needs help/treatment/diagnosis/whatever that is not your job. He can find all that whilst he is not making you and your dc unhappy and treading on eggshells

I don’t think the husband is the only one with issues here, the OP admits to having a horrible volatile temper. Her issues could be feeding his, as much as his are feeding her, and they are in a vicious circle. She doesn’t change her behavior, he doesn’t change his, the dynamics of the relationship remain unstable and dysfunctional. And I am not sure she is hiding from the neighbours just because of his poor behaviour. Her own horrible volatile temper will be enough on its own to be ashamed when bumping into the neighbours.

But, I do agree in so far as it only takes one to break a vicious cycle of dysfunctional behavior, and leaving is one way of doing that. There are other ways too, but leaving is the only one I can think of that can be done one-sided, without the cooperation of the partner.

I also think that the OP should look at getting help for her own (self-proclaimed) volatile horrible temper, especially with children in the mix. I understand her husband can “press her buttons”, but there is something not right with the level of temper the OP sates she has, no one can make us flip, no matter what buttons they press, we are ultimately responsible for own behaviour. The OP's "horrible volatile" temper bit rings as many “dysfunctional alarm bells” with me as the information she has given about her husband and his issues.

People are talking about Aspergers.
Please don't.
The OP has said 'He can not understand that rudeness, sarcasm, irritation or contempt are inappropriate when talking...'

that does not sound like autism to me.

There is intent to hurt and be rude.

I got boderline Aspergers on that online test..

AF - it matters because of the intent.

An abuser is, clearly, a dick who intends to mistreat another person, usually for control.

Someone who stonewalls, ignores, dismisses, ridicules, or neglects because of the way their brain is wired does not have the intention to control or mistreat. Indeed, that person is horrified at the emotional consequences the NT partner suffers, once they eventually realise that their lack of emotional support is hurting their partner - horrified, sorrowful, guilty, and utterly mystified.

It's a bit like speaking different languages. It's not something that affects EVERY area of our relationship, he is a Good Man and we mostly tick along fine. But, emotionally, I'm speaking Italian and he's speaking, well, possibly Klingon.

He just doesn't "get" NEEDING physical comfort or emotional expression.

For instance: our 8 week old son was very unwell with a bug, hospitalised for 4 nights. DH, the baby's daddy, didn't visit. He didn't even phone me to see how things were. Not once. The baby was on tube feeding, oxygen mask, was heading to HDU - nothing.

I found this lack of support, well, quite challenging to accept. "in sickness and in health" and all that.

So, inevitably, I lost my temper and turned it into a massive fight - because, clearly, the fucker didn't care whether the baby lived or died, and even less about how I was coping with kid in hospital and toddler at home.

he replied, not defensively, just with confusion "well, what's the point in visiting? He doesn't even know who I am yet, he's only tiny. Besides, he's unconscious. The nurses are looking after him, and if there's a real problem, you'll phone me"

His definition of "a real problem" in any health situation is impending death.

He could only think in practical terms - and, acutally, he was so overwhelmed by his emotional reaction of having a frighteningly ill baby that he was rendered unable to do anything.

Which is, you know a bit shit for me, who expected some hand holding from him.

But, it doesn't mean that he's a monster who'd neglect his family - even though his actions were neglectful.

He didn't know what to do, so, he did what he DID know - went to work and earned the money so the bills were paid. Practical, but, not at all helpful for me, a neglected and indescribably hurt and lonely life partner.

He's not an abusive man. But, I may as well ask him to fly as expect him to be emotionally giving when the going is tough. He goes the other way, and can behave like a right nasty bastard - but, it is absolutely, not INTENDED to be abusive. It's more just like he can't cope, so, he shuts down to protect himself.

If it were as it looks to outsiders, I'd have LTB years ago.

But, it's not as easy as that. I'd be leaving him because he is incapable of something.

Would I leave him if he lost a leg and couldn't hill walk? Or, couldn't go out for dinner because he had stomach cancer? "in sickness and in health" extends to him and his needs as well as mine. He's not ill, but, he has a condition that impacts on our life and relationship.

So, here I am. Trying to accommodate his needs, which only manifested themselves once the kids were born, whilst not being entirely crushed by it's consequences.

Sometimes, it's tough going, being married to man who can hurt you emotionally. But, he's trying to improve, and now, when the poorly baby (who grew to be a poorly child) is in hospital he ALWAYS texts (in the morning at 7am and in the afternoon at 2pm) and occaisionally phones (if there's time between putting the other kids to bed and tidying up and relaxing with one of his special interests) and has even visited him twice.

There's no doubt that this is a bit shit. But, the one thing it's definitely not, is criminal.

My ExH was like this.

Funny, though, he wasn't like this when we first met and I agreed to move in with him...

deverethemuzzler , of course there's intention to be rude and end the conversation; men (and young boys) on the autistic spectrum are very capable of using sarcasm; my DS tries to do it all the time and can be very cutting - I have to point out to him that I'm not likely to change my mind on what Ive decided if he's going to mock me; I don't know how you imagine autism to be...

In answer to Bluebell, since you asked me a question I thought about it and I think that if I knew nothing about autism, with regards to DP I might think he is abusive - yet have a feeling that he isn't, and it would just make me very miserable... He didn't have a diagnosis a few years ago when I met him and he was just a friend, but because of my experience with DS I knew that's what it was; or at any rate, I knew that explaining and pointing things out to him might make a difference.

Sorry for hijack OP.

Exactly, Line.

Neither was mine. He was exciting and fun and attentive.

And, then, life got in the way, with stuff he had never had to learn - like, how to manage without peace and quiet because there's 3 kids in 4 years, or, with someone doing really annoying things like breathing at night, or wanting to talk out stress when all he wanted was silence to manage his stress.

The marriage I thought I was signing up for isn't what I got. But, to be fair, it's not how he envisaged it either. He thought he'd get to carry on as per usual with the added bonus of having A Wife And Family and Sex On Tap and Getting Dinner Made. He really never realised that these things would intrude on his routine, he thought that the four people he lives with would just slot into his routine. The routine mattered a great deal to him. Past tense, he's made a lot of changes!

We're still together, and, will remain together, but only because I'm too stubborn to give up and that's only because I read about AS and realised "doh".

I think that sarcasm etc would be used to either end the conversation, or express things that they are unable to say calmly. I don't think, indeed, that they realise it will make the person on the receiving end of it feel bad. Long story, but my DP once tried to shame a v good friend of his into being in touch (don't want to be specific); he completely failed to see that one cannot be shamed into seeking contact! I asked him how he would react if someone did what he did to him, would he be shamed and make contact or never speak to the guy again (as his friend did)? He realised immediately that I was right, he'd just not thought at all about the guy's feelings...

I don't imagine autism to be anything.

I live with it every day. Personally and professionally.

That is why it annoys me when someone acts like a dick and people post 'autism?'

Do you not agree, then, that a person with autism might use put downs to stop a conversation, and be unaware they are causing hurt, and of better ways to communicate, until it's pointed out to them? It's my experience daily with DS..

Anyway... Feel bad for hijacking - hope the OP finds some things useful.

mountains, thank you for taking the time to answer. It is funny, he (the separated ex) just did something which reminded me why it was so hard. This time I actually called him on it, and he says I got it wrong. Maybe that is the difference, if your intention is not to hurt someone, you would look at your own actions, not just tell the other person they got it wrong.

But I don't know. This thread is an interesting read, although I find siiighs post heartbreaking.

Plus physical contact, he did not understand boundaries, so it was not distance but suffocating.

But yes, whatever, it made me miserable.

I have read the link to aspergers -thanks! I am not sure if it describes DH. One thing that I have a query about is use of language. DH is very very gifted in terms of language.

There is this rather odd idea that people with Aspergers cannot handle language well. Actually, many can. I have taught several up to A* A level English. One of the reasons I often work with them is there is some evidence I am mildly on the spectrum too. I used to be in performing arts (hell, I 'act' normal enough of the time, might as well make a living of it).
The symptoms are not 'uniform': mine are mostly sensory and routine based. I learn nuances of language and expression slowly but once learned, they're learned.

Having said that, your DH sounds a bit of mean TBH. Also, the answering sarcastically etc' just seems plain mean. Not the same as responding differently.
I understand from my DH that my lack of eye contact and frozen facial expression can be read as hostility when the environment is too noisy or cold (sensory issues) or I'm just plain tired. He points this out to me and asks 'are you angry with me or tired/thirsty?'. Sarcasm however isn't an instinctive reaction - it's more deliberate.