Has anyone heard of Alexithymia or am I cluching at straws?

[purpleapple1234]

Me and DH have always had arguements. Been married for 5 years and not sure that we every should have as we have such a different way of communicating. I have a very votaile temper and am very empathic, but he is a defensive aggressive arse who will can not have a proper discussion (We have just had another arguement - can you tell?).

Anyway, while 'cooling down' I have realised that he just does not register emotion when we discuss emotive topics. He can not understand that rudeness, sarcasm, irritation or contempt are inappropriate when talking to me about something I am clearly upset about or even to DD (aged 2!!!).
He makes "jokes" which are nasty, uses a contemptious tone of voice and generally shows no caring of things that are clearly upsetting. And does not understand why this upset me so much.

So a simple discussion about food turns into a horrible world-war-3-type argument. I am no way innocent and blameless in this, as my temper is horrible, but is definitely provoked by his unkind way of talking to me.

Anyway, thinking about this I came up with the theory that either he is a complete nasty arse OR that he is missing some sort of link between words and feelings (either what caused them or their effect). He is kind man in general, but has big problems expressing how he feels and gets angry instead.

While investigating on the internet (as you do) I came across alexithymia. Is anyone else together with someone like this? Am I just too sensitive (one of his theories)? Or is alexithymia a viable explanation that I can work with?

DH is very very gifted in terms of language. English is not his first language, but he is almost beyond fluent and understands it a native level - without any formal education. But - and this is interesting to me - can not translate between his own language and english. Yes he can, if he's completely fluent in both. There's no doubt about that. He can. He has those skills. But he also seems to have a nasty desire to disregard you and put you down whenever, however he can, so I'd say your answer is there. Thus: I have been learning his language and need to know the exact meaning of words and the grammar, but he has no knowledge or interest and is confused by it - I assume that translates as giving you blank irritating looks or perhaps making one of his nasty jokes when you try to engage with him on it.

Not a nice sounding man!

"If he behaves differently with other people then it's a choice he makes with you, not a syndrome, disorder or condition I'm afraid."

This ^

It's nicer to think that he has some kind of inherent condition and that it's out of his control but the reality is that he's probably just choosing to be a bully.

Alexithymia does exist but no way does 10% of the population meet the criteria for it. Actually no one can agree what the criteria actually is! There is one main questionnaire which has been repeatedly tweaked and now misses out some if the original defining criteria of alexithymia. So basically 10% of the population have trouble expressing their emotions - this is not necessarily a hard wired problem but can be due to environment when growing up and can learned later. It sounds like your DP struggles to connect with others' emotions - how does the family he grew up in express emotions? Do they at all? I would agree with Cogito - he seems to give himself permission to behave this way only with you.

I doubt it's aspergers if he's only like it with you.

If anything I'd say it was more likely that the proportion of the population with the capacity to be a miserable bully was around 10%. If you think back to your school days, out of a typical class of 30 there could easily be 3 ganging up trying to make other kids' lives a misery

BTW... if we're playing 'diagnose a nasty bastard over the internet'... another personality type that has no empathy or understanding for the feelings or distress or others is a psychopath . Maybe he's one of those?

I wish that people who gave in idea about Asperger would say nothing.
I have one dc who has AS. He 'wouldn't do boo to a goose' according to his teacher but has recurring meltdowns, aggressive behaviour at home. Simply because he us bottling it all up at school and finally exudes at home, where he feels safe.
I have a DH who us probably on the spectrum. No one sees his anger etc at work. They don't see him grumpy. Actually they probably don't notice that much he is extremely uneasy in social situation. All that because he stays quiet when he us and he is doing a job he loves and knows (also know as his special interest). That doesn't mean he doesn't do all this at home, That he doesn't have any social issues or that he can be really argumentative at home.

It's nowhere as simple as 'if he managed outside the house and us only like this with you, then he chooses to.' And no I can't just ask him to be at home like he us outside the home either. It would be similar than saying to someone with ME, 'well you can hold a job and run around at work so surely you can do thatcher you are home too instead of spending your weekend lying down. ' do robe with ME would need the weekend to recover from their tiredness. My dc and DH need time at home to recover from the demands at school/work and that means that they are also more grumpy and difficult at home too.

OP I gave been in your shoes wondering what was going on. I've been wondering of DH wasn't just an arse and if I shouldn't be leaving.
The best I can advice us to read around as much as you can and 'study' your DH. Have a look at Asperger too, see if it fits. Try some techniques to smooth things up (the best one I have done is to reduce my emotional response and stay as factual as possible. A good thing anyway because angry and over emotional people are hard to live with anyway). See if that helps. Maybe even have a word about AS with your DH and see what he thinks.

Sorry for all the spelling mistakes and strange words. That's auto correct for you...,

"If he behaves differently with other people then it's a choice he makes with you, not a syndrome, disorder or condition I'm afraid."

Nope, it is possible that only intimate relationships generate the situations the AS partner finds difficult to navigate. After all, many of the dynamics in a long-term-relationship are unique to that, particular relationship.

For instance, communication with colleagues or close family is in a narrow frame. You can mostly anticipate the type of information they will want from you, and the type of behaviour they expect. So, for my AS DH, that's a doddle. In fact, he excels in his field. Splendid.

However, managing a young family who are, obviously, unpredictable, has been a mine field for my DH. Who sounds very like the OP's DH. And, it's very diffiuclt to endlessly be on the receiving end of behaviour which appears abusive, but, is probably not intended to be abusive.

I could LTB, there's certainly grounds for divorce and the effect on the kids of being raised in a home with strains - well, we'll see what happens there. But, if he'd had a head injury and was left with angry outbursts or difficulties understanding nuances of communication - would I LTB?

If his brain is wired differently to mine, does that make him "different" enough to forgive the behaviour? Not excuse, but, forgive, accept and find a way to make work.

It can be a very lonely way to live. On the upside, he is incapable of lying, he is utterly dependable and he is completely loyal. So, you know, Good Husband Material.

Please bear in mind that autism is a spectrum. We're all on it somewhere, it doesn't always look like RainMan, sometimes it looks like Bill Gates. (of course, I have no idea if BG has Aspergers. But, I'd like to sit down with Melinda for a coffee and a chat about whether they squabble of the opening of curtains in the Gates' household)

There's a massive difference between 'grumpy and difficult' and the kind of 'rudeness, sarcasm, irritation, contempt.... World War 3' description of the OP. Children tend to have meltdowns whether they have AS or not because they are still learning how to manage their emotions and home is a safe environment in which to do so. The same behaviour is simply not acceptable in adults

And, happily, children with AS now get support and help so that when they are adults they'll have skills to manage behaviours.

My DH didn't have that. Indeed, his very probably AS parents delighted in him playing the clarinet for 4 hours a day, 8 at the weekend. He works in a mathematically based field with other AS people who find his attention to detail and ability to finish tasks a positive thing. Truly, the ONLY area of his life that's affected is his marriage, because I had unrealistic expectations of being in a mutually supportive partnership, when all he can actually offer is support when he is able and, that's very rarely when I need it.

It's too simplistic to say "that's unacceptable". I KNOW it's unacceptable, but, it still is what it is, and, people like me and OP are very isolated because to talk about the problems anywhere, (especially on MN!) is difficult because it does sound like "why would you put up with that? Go to marriage counselling, lay down the law, LTB" is the logical response. It's really, really not as simple as that.

Wish it was

cogito meltdowns from children with AS and NT children are NOT the same thing. Believe me when I say that. Meltdowns from children with AS happen more often, triggered by very little and way past the toddler tantrum time. The intensity of it is different too.

And yes with adults you do get the WW3 situation and the sarcasm. Even after 15years, I am still struggling with DH and his tone of voice. He doesn't realise he is sarcastic or that the way he said something would be constructed as a put down. Usually all down to the tone if voice that he doesn't master. Just as he can't read small differences in intonation and I have to spell to him that I was joking because wo the big smile and the laugh he can't see it.

And bye if meltdowns in AS children were just because they are still learning to control their emotions, things would very very easy indeed.

You need to remember that AS people are living a life where everyday is an onslaught of deeply upsetting events. From the food texture that isn't right, the schedule they couldn't keep up with, the (normal) noise from their children or having to decipher what on earth is the other person saying. Everyday life is creating levels of stress and anxiety that NT people only experience in exceptional circumstances.
So yes they might struggle to manage emotions. Just as other NT people would struggle to manage their emotions in those exceptional circumstances. But that is acceptable.

Btw I am NOT saying that such behaviours should be accepted and not challenged.
My DH was like this (but his anger was silent. Which is just as devastating). Things are now much better. But it doesn't mean all that still isn't happening. It means we as a couple have found ways to deal with it.

As a mum to a boy with AS and a (new) DP with an AS diagnosis, I agree very much with DaVinciNight and siiiiigh ...

On a practical note, I would say that your DP somehow needs to be made aware of the contempt, rudeness, sarcasm and irriation he displays and how it affects you. What else is there to do? If he doesn't realise what upstes you it will just take him an explicit explanation, so he realises. He should be told, in a moment of calmness, that sarcasm just confuses 2-year=olds, that they are still unable to modulate their own emotions and we therefore can't expect them to turn reasonnable after a quick chat, and that put downs have the effect of making you very angry rather than solve the issue. Or - I don't know, but it needs to be explicit! And also, that failure to change is putting your relationship at risk, because you feel taken for granted and insulted... I think that then, depending on his reaction, you'll see if it's the case that he didn't see it, or that he doesn't care...

DP will always, for instance,I think, have inflexibility problems. When plans change, he doesn't complain, but I can see he is put out - although he denies it, and tries hard to adapt and be graceful. I can just see it in his eyes for a few seconds... In times of stress at work it has created problems for him in the past. Maybe the OP's DP's work doesn't create the kind of frictions he reacts to? Maybe, it being the workplace, he has a clear template for the times it goes wrong? I agree you can expect, for a man with AS, a close relationship and parenthood to be v hard to navigate... So far, I have seen DP respond inappropriately to people at his workplace when he has been stressed... I expect it might happen to me too, and am getting ready to have to be explicit about what I can't accept...

He has said to me (we talked about alexithymia) that he has trouble understanding words that have to do with feelings; this also coming from someone with great language skills (fluent in 4 languages - including mine, which is not his, to an amazing degree); Yet when I write to him talking about my feelings, his replies are always way off the mark; he manages to completely misunderstand me, and even understand the opposite of what I write, until he gets upset or reassured by things that I would have thought would have the opposite effect; it's like he picks up on a few key words and remake his own letter... I found it hard to believe at first - that he finds it hard to see sublte differences in adjectives that describe emotions - yet it makes sense, in light of him not understanding me, whereas he is v intelligent and perceptive in other areas that he is more familiar with - and he has shockingly poor insights in his own behaviour sometimes...

If you don't love him and want out, though, that's another thing... I persist with DP because I really like him and want it to work...

When you explain how you feel to him, it might take him a while for it to sink in btw, and you might have to be explicit in checking he's understood, as he might not seek clarification.

I hope I haven't 'transferred' (or whatever the word is) too much of my own experience onto yours... HTH. Good luck!

I didn't say AS children were learning to manage their emotions, I said all children tend to go through that process. We accept toddler tantrums and teenage door-slamming because we know they are normal phases of development.

Dealing with 'unacceptable' in a partner may not be easy but if the behaviour is intolerable, whether it's put on or inbuilt, you always retain the freedom of choice to reject the person rather than make them your responsibility. It's a judgement decision like any other.

(Ah - sorry, Xposted with DaVinciNight and siiiiigh and said the same...)

But then surely step 1 could be to try to make things explicit; in our experience it really is possible that it's the case that he doesn't realise, even if it's hard to believe for a lot of people. Then obviously if nothing changes in spite of allowances for difficulties then it's another matter...

Dealing with 'unacceptable' in a partner may not be easy but if the behaviour is intolerable, whether it's put on or inbuilt, you always retain the freedom of choice to reject the person rather than make them your responsibility. It's a judgement decision like any other.

Cogito, I absolutely agree with this, we all have the freedom to set our own boundaries... but what you said (and agreed with) a few posts back

If he behaves differently with other people then it's a choice he makes with you, not a syndrome, disorder or condition I'm afraid

It's nicer to think that he has some kind of inherent condition and that it's out of his control but the reality is that he's probably just choosing to be a bully

is just simply wrong. Just because someone can "toe the line and behave half normally" in more superficial relationships, doesn't mean that they can do that 24-7-365 in a committed relationship. Committed relationships are often where they let the veil they display to the outside world slip (as explained already very well by siiiigghhh. Yes, this could just mean they are just choosing to be an arsehole bully, but it can also be indicative of a disorder or syndrome. It's really not half as black and white as you are trying to make out.

Ideally, yes, we can be fully ourselves, warts and all, with our family who love us unconditionally and not the modified, spruced-up version of ourselves that we take to work or out with our mates.... but only to a point. If 'veils dropping' means the real person underneath is a verbally aggressive, sarcastic bully, sticking the metaphorical boot into the partner and DCs behind closed doors that is just domestic abuse and I'm sorry but no labelling it as a disorder or syndrome makes it acceptable.

purple from my own experience this is a really hard situation to be in.
You have behaviour at home that aren't acceptable. And you have people telling you that he is a bastard and you should LTB. And then somewhere in your heart you belueve that something else is at play.

Fur me the biggest difference between a twat and AS is that people with AS can learn. It can be hard, take a while and needs to be told in the right way (as explained by another poster, words can take very different meanings and something that looks obvious to us isn't to them). But they can change. An abusive man won't.

You will have to see what are your boundaries re what us acceptable or not and how much effort you are ready to put into that relationship. I suppose that when you have a dc with AS it's somehow easier because a lot if the mindset change you need to do, you have done it already for them.
It is possible to change things. And it possible to have a nice relationship with someone with AS (albeit I think a different one than in an NT/NT relationship). But you should NOT feel that you have to make it work iyswim.

cogito

Xpost with you.
But I hope you would understand from my posts and other posters that things just aren't as simple.
Some behaviours that can be displayed by people with AS can look abusive from the outside. But the meaning and the reasons are different and I can tell you that even in the receiving end , they are actually feel different. Not nice but not like that person was there just to put you down and hurst you.
And again people with AS can change. Abusive people don't.

It's nowhere as simple as saying 'well they should have learnt by now'.
A bit like someone who has depression but doesn't see it and has become a pain the ass but can't see it (not unusual thing to happen). Would you say 'just LTB' or would you say 'ok let's try and find a solution, see what kind of he uniques you can use, go and see your GP etc'?

" the meaning and the reasons are different "

If that is enough rationale for you to tolerate abusive treatment then that's entirely your judgement and your prerogative. However, I hope you would also be able to understand that, if I'm being subjected to abusive treatment or I am seeing others being mistreated, I will not waste my time, harm my health or put my safety in jeopardy trying to understand meanings and reasons.

cogito what I am saying is that it is NOT abusive!!

As I said, knowing about AS helped me and DH to change things over because he was NOT abusive.
Yes the behaviour wasn't acceptable. Yes it could have been constructed as abusive. But it was NOT.

And that's a really big difficulty. Making the difference between someone being a twat or AS.
What I don't agree with is the sweeping generalisation. And the refusal to accept that someone can tell the difference between unacceptable behaviour because I want to hurt you and unacceptable behaviour because if AS.

And believe me I am as feminist as you can be and will NOT accept abusive behaviour. If DH hadn't changed I would have left. But DH only changed because we foster the right environment for him (and no it doesn't mean doing as he says. It means using very direct information, avoiding highly emotional situations etc)

Ideally, yes, we can be fully ourselves, warts and all, with our family who love us unconditionally and not the modified, spruced-up version of ourselves that we take to work or out with our mates.... but only to a point. If 'veils dropping' means the real person underneath is a verbally aggressive, sarcastic bully, sticking the metaphorical boot into the partner and DCs behind closed doors that is just domestic abuse and I'm sorry but no labelling it as a disorder or syndrome makes it acceptable.

For a start. Irrespective if someone has a condition you or I would consider legitimate, what is acceptable is still only decided by the person on the receiving end of the treatment. No matter how legitimate the label is, it’s up to each individual to decide what they can or can't live with. That’s not my issue with your posts earlier on in the thread. I agree with all that.

Josef Fritzel’s daughter (or Castro’s or Dutroux’s victims), will no doubt have come out of her/their decades long ordeal with very many mental health issues, legitimate and totally understandable under the hideous circumstances she/they existed for years. No matter how sickening and unjust her past has been, that does not give her the right to abuse any future partner. But it does explain why she will probably have many diagnosed (or as yet undiagnosed) mental health issues and will display these in future relationships. Do I think someone like this woman (these women) will be easy to live with. No I absolutely don’t, I think it will be very difficult for her to live someone, and I think any future partner will find her very difficult to live with. Do I think any future partner should just stay with her because of her sad and abusive past. No I absolutely don’t. But do I think that someone like this could display abusive issues? Yes it’s highly possible, and some experts even state probable (withdrawing and stonewalling is of course emotional abuse too, but has often been a lifesaving coping mechanism for many in abusive relationships, and it’s not something one just stops doing overnight after it has served them so well for so many years). Surely you don’t think people like this would just “choose” to be abusive. Surely you realize they have legitimate disorders? Even if they do get along fairly well at work and with neighbours and other superficial contacts. Superficial relationships can be soooo much easier than deep longterm committed ones.

The issue I had with your previous post …. “if he only shows that behavior to you, and not colleagues or friends, then it’s just plain old abuse and he chooses to be like that and it’s not a disorder, it’s choice”, is very much oversimplifying things. Not all, but some people can have a disorder, can rub along fine with colleagues and friends, and their real issues only arise in close relationships.

And by “veil dropping”, no I didn’t mean the stereotypical abuser who presents a lovely faced to the outside world and turns into a mean bully behind closed doors. I mean genuine people with genuine disorders who just about manage to deal with life and people as long as relationships remain fairly superficial, but who face massive challenges in committed longterm relationships. Like I am sure the victims I mentioned above will experience.

Again though, I do stress, however unfortunate and hideous these women’s past lives have been, I would stand fully behind any partner who just upped and left them because they are impossibly difficult to live with and deal with.

"I didn’t mean the stereotypical abuser who presents a lovely faced to the outside world and turns into a mean bully behind closed doors."

And I think the OP is living with a stereotypical abuser... that's all.