Husband has patriarchal ideals...

[LucyBucy]

We've been together for 12 years and his patriarchal ideals have always grated but in the last 6 months I've been wondering if I can stand much more of it. He has a "do as I say, not as I do" approach to me and my daughters, gets angry if his approach is questioned, hates the girls or me having the last word on a decision and stomps off muttering to himself about how I always get my own way - which just isn't true.
He wants the girls to do what he wants with no questions. Yesterday he got angry because they didnt want to go to judo (his choice of class) and called them useless fucks (though when they were out of ear shot). Today he got angry with me and our 5 year old because I let her off getting dressed because she's been under the weather lately. I hate his behaviour and it seems to mirror his own upbringing - powerlessness as a child with an abusive father who will still tell his kids theyre useless even now.
Am feeling quite tearful and dont know how to get through to him without having a shouty argument that his behaviour doesnt fit in our family :-(.

He needs to deal with the demons from his past if he has any chance with you all as a family. Would counselling be an option for him? Keep a firm stance though. It's not acceptable.

I have only been reading threads on MN for a few weeks now but I am really alarmed that on so many postings people are saying leave this man. In the cases of DV then the woman/man should always leave the abuser,but in relation to many of the problems being raised on this site there is no violence involved. Surely couples, especially those with children, should try hard to resolve problems within the relationship before they just give up on it? No relationship is ever perfect but with communication and support many couples can work through issues and remain together reasonably happily. If women listened to some of the advice on here then not a single marriage would survive. OP has said that for 95% of the time things are pretty ok and that's more than a lot of couples can say. Yes there are real problems with his controlling behaviour that needs addressing but surely we should come up with practical advice to help them through this difficulty (as many people have) rather than assuming he is the original Satan and should be divorced immediately. Do people really think that it's easy to be a single parent, probably struggling for money and facing everything alone? No, it's not easy at all believe me. Be strong OP, continue to tell your DH that his behaviour is unacceptable and damaging and I really hope he can become a better man and you can build a happy life together as a family. You are now confronting him and telling him how it is affecting you and all credit to you for doing so. He has always been told he is useless. Perhaps point out to him all the good things about him and let him see how good that feels and hopefully he will want to make others feel good too. Be strong

I have only been reading threads on MN for a few weeks now but I am really alarmed that on so many postings people are saying leave this man

This. No-one on here knows enough about this man and this marriage to say that it is doomed. The reality is that his behaviour is conditioned by his upbringing. It really is not impossible that the shock he has had today is the starting point to his realising that he doesn't want to be like his own father, and that unless he changes he is going to lose his family. If OP, who knows him best, thinks that is so, it is reasonable at least for her to try. OK, down the line it may not work, but none of us can say for sure that it won't.

The best thing about MN is the encouragement and support women get when it comes to recognising that a man is abusive and removing him from their lives. Because for many women living with abusive men, every single message they get from family, friends and 'community' is along the lines of learning to 'manage' him (eat shit) working at the relationship (eat shit) moderate your behaviour (eat shit) and that being single is a terrible fate to be avoided.
Ideally there would be a zero-tolerance policy on abusive men and then they would gradually be bred out of existence, but what the collective power of MN can do is put more of them in their place and improve more women's lives by reminding them that they do not have to put up with abuse.

Heyday, you've been here 5minutes you say, and been reading a few threads?

If you read for a bit, you'll see that some of the people here saying to leave learned the hard way, have done the freedom programme, read the books, shelled out for therapy over years to recover from abusers. They know that trying to change things is pointless, as the only person who can change anything is the one that's doing the abusing/manipulation.

If you read any decent book on the anatomy/dynamics of abuse, you'd quickly appreciate that the only way for an abuser to even consider their behaviour may be unwelcome (let alone abjectly harmful and destructive and wrong) is IF they lose every scrap of support from every single quarter. Even then, it's super rare that they'll stop.

Being a single parent is way easier than living with an abuser. Seeing your children relax, grow and blossom, now that they don't have to tiptoe around their own home, and make the super fast human computer calculations required to work out what mood their dad's in.

A child in an environment such as this is described as being abused themselves directly, such is the magnitude of the poison around them.

They are being harmed every single day they are in it. The sooner the situation ends, the sooner they can start to repair the damage.

Abusers never change. Only ever get worse. No matter what you do, say, think/don't think. The OP details a difficult man, but one that's got increasingly worse, noticeably so in the last 6m. I know it seems like giving up to the inexperienced, but seriously, when you've lived it, seen it, and come out the other side, the knowledge that all the rumination, anguish and hope will only ever amount to nothing but disappointment.

The only chance of being taken seriously by a man like this is to leave him.

Meantime, the upside of that is that you're freed from the poison, and can start to see the wood for the trees.

So, as well as you mean, please don't feel tempted to advise someone to try harder and stay in a damaging relationship, especially when there are dc involved.

Please also realise that people with good relationships don't need to make threads. People come here with issues and worries they need help with.

Most of the time this is stemming from an inkling, thought or idea that's been bothering them for a while. Sometimes years.
there are scripts for cheats, for abusers, for narcs. One of the first things that shocks any one of us facing any or all of the above is the shocking similarities between abusers/chets/narcs. It's like there are manuals somewhere we don't know about. Even down to excuses and terminology.

....and just because someone does make the man leave it doesn't have to be forever. It gives the wife time to think straight and if the man is truly sorry for the pain they have caused and are willing to work on it the wife can ask him to come back. Much better with staying with someone who makes you unhappy just because you are supposed to "work at marriage" when you have kids .

Eating shit is really really bad

Who would advocate that someone does that in order to hold onto a crap bloke ?

The mind boggles, tbh

I think if he loves his children, he need to let them be themselves, and find their own identity and personality. So he shouldn't place heavy expectation on a child if the child need to learn something at their own pace. He should definitely not swear. I am not sure if he knew that his swearing is really quite attacking to the child's core sense of self or not.

If you want to get through to him, get him these books.
Please Understand Me II - David Keirsey
Working with Emotional Intelligence - Daniel Goleman

I have a brother who was like this when he was younger. He was also a manager as well, until I have him these books, he placed heavy expectation on others being as capable as he is, but when they do not meet his expectation he gets quite angry and annoyed that they are not. But he mellowed out over the years as he get older. He realises different people's personalities and capabilities. I remember getting the EQ book very early on when he was in his 20s. It was like a light bulb went on in his head. (Things we say doesn't get through to him, he likes science.)

OP he sounds very much how my dad was when I was growing up. I hated him for a long time for the way he treated us (DB, DM and me). Lots of financial abuse as well as emotional abuse. It's horrible to grow up in that atmosphere and does affect you in adulthood.

It all changed when I was 10 and my mum got a job and became the higher wage earner and grew in confidence. My dad did not like that one bit. Ramped up the emotional abuse, tried to financially abuse DM by attempting to take all her wage and give her an 'allowance' etc etc. he was awful to us kids, calling us names. I was bright in school, did really well but constantly called me stupid and fat.

Once he realised mum wasn't for turning and she was calling him mostly on his bullshit he eventually calmed down because I genuinely believe he loved my mum.

My DM died a couple of years ago and he cared for her in her final illness and is devastated. He has put all his energy into being there for me and my bro and our respective daughters. He is a fantastic grandad and I've finally regained some respect for him.

Mum and I were best friends but I still harbour those feelings of resentment that she let us be exposed to him although I know it would have been so fucking hard for her to leave. I still harbour major resentment that she suggested that I move out when Dad attacked me on my 18th birthday. Though I know she did that to try and help me get away fr his abuse, not to punish me.

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes, very very rarely, things can improve with time and effort on the abuser's part.

But I also wanted you to know what it is like to be a daughter of an abusive father. It really is just...awful. Your children will know exactly what is going on, even if they didn't hear him call them useless fucks. Don't do that to them.

I was lucky that mum grew a pair and stood up to him (mostly) and as a result I don't take any shit from my so relaxed DH and I think my subconscious purposely looked for a man who was the complete opposite to my dad.

As I've grown older I've noticed I have some of my dad's traits to my utter horror and I'm working on that. I do not want my daughter to grow up scared she may make mummy shout for no reason.

oh, forks, what a lot of parallels I see in your post

unfortunately my mother is still under his spell, 40 years later

but in relation to many of the problems being raised on this site there is no violence involved

Abuse does not have to be physical for it to be abuse.

Lucy,

Sometimes these threads make me despair. The posters all baying for immediate ditching of a family, break up of a marriage. Mainly because it would entertain them and make their advice worthy.....

Everyone is right, he's a bully. You know that too. It is only right and fair to point out to your partner how their behaviour is viewed by your daughters and you. If this is his upbringing he may genuinely not have known. Or if he did, whilst no one picks it up he blathers on stupidly. It's been raised. It's a cross roads. Possibly not the last. It's worth a try first, but think in your own mind what your deal breakers are.

Good luck. Take all help you can.

There is nothing to rescue and or save here. I think people say leave in these cases primarily because they have been there themselves; it is not done for supposed entertainment value and it is wrong of you to state as such (not just to say insulting).

OP can point out more than once to him that he is a bully but he already knows and does not care. He is very much a product of his own abusive upbringing

Joint counselling is a non starter due to the ongoing emotional abuse meted out to OP and her daughters (he called them useless fucks in his wife's presence).

Also from the initial post:-

"He wants the girls to do what he wants with no questions".

And how is a person supposed to get past that?. You cannot begin to reason with someone who is inherently unreasonable. Living with the Dominator is no picnic at all for either the OP or her daughters.

There is a LOT of knee-jerk condemnation on this forum. I think it is the result of very many women who are extremely hurt and angry (often after a relationship has been completely destroyed, e.g. by serial infidelity). It comes from a natural desire to help, not from a bad place - but I do sometimes feel we move too quickly into a chorus of 'leave the bastard' rather than thinking of alternative ways forward and taking a bit more of a nuanced approach. It IS possible to solve some problems in relationships - but there is no hard and fast rule as to which problems can be worked on, because every couple is different.

In this case, I am not sure that leaving is necessarily bad advice, though I don't think it will entirely solve the problem. I am worried that the OP describes the attitude as 'patriarchal'. Unlike posters further up this thread, I'm not sure that this is any less serious as a term than 'abusive'. It suggests to me a deeply ingrained pattern of behaviour that goes hand-in-hand with the gender role assumptions of the man in question, and obviously also the family dynamics he experienced growing up. The anger and the sulking when he doesn't get his own way suggests that underneath, he really feels frustrated and powerless, and fearful of being exposed as such.

Now note that, even if the OP were to leave, his attitude towards woman would still potentially be a problem because their children are girls. Thus, in a co-parenting role, he would still be able to inflict his negative attitude towards women and his demands for complete control on their children. So even if the OP did decide to LTB, she would still to some extent have to deal with the issue - and it might actually be more difficult for her to exert any pressure on him to change. (I'm not saying this is an argument against leaving, which might be the right solution - merely that leaving would still leave a residual issue).

Now whether this is something the guy in question could address (maybe via counselling) depends on his flexibility and attitude, but the word 'patriarchal' to me suggests that he might not be open even to considering his behaviour abnormal, let alone seeking help. To put it another way, getting him to a point where he recognises that his behaviour is difficult and unaccepable is most of the battle, because it also involves an acknowledgement of weakness (which I imagine would be terrifying for him).

I would suggest a very gentle, non-confrontational approach in the first instance, to try to see whether a quiet, caring concern in which acknowledgement of weakness or frustration could bring him to acknowledge a problem and consider couples counselling. This could then be the platform for a more individual exploration of his issues, which could be very helpful. If not, then a more direct ultimatum might be needed. I'm afraid, though, that it's just not straightforward or simple to deal with men of this type.

"I would suggest a very gentle, non-confrontational approach in the first instance, to try to see whether a quiet, caring concern in which acknowledgement of weakness or frustration could bring him to acknowledge a problem and consider couples counselling"

Well he cried during such a talk. Tears can be manipulative. Yes he is "weak" and "frustrated" (bullies often are) but OP did not make him this way, he chose to act like he does and he is also very much a product of his own abusive upbringing. Upshot here is that a person cannot manage someone like this.

And I would also agree with SGB's comments of earlier:-

"Because for many women living with abusive men, every single message they get from family, friends and 'community' is along the lines of learning to 'manage' him (eat shit) working at the relationship (eat shit) moderate your behaviour (eat shit) and that being single is a terrible fate to be avoided".

Couples counselling is never recommended when there is abuse of any sort within the relationship. Also OP is really dealing with someone here who has not apologised nor has taken any real responsibility for his actions.

Attilla - I am not denying he is a bully. His behaviour is bang out of line. I'm not saying that she shouldn't leave either. What I am saying is that leaving isn't a complete solution because he will still be a coparent to her children, and will be able to inflict his 'patriarchal' attitudes on them (and will probably throw a strop if she's 10 minutes early/late to collect them etc etc etc).

I think a staged approach would be helpful: start with something quiet, caring and non-confrontational. The tears may be just a ruse, but they may also be a genuine base for further reflection and positive change, particularly if he agrees that there is a problem and goes to counselling. If not, there is nothing to prevent her bringing out the big guns and going nuclear on his ass!

Also, I often read on these forums that couples counselling is not for abuse. It's a bit more complicated than that. It can be a really good way of bringing abuse to light - one of the questions many therapists will ask is whether the relationship is abusive, helping the couple themselves to see if things are going badly awry in this area. Once abuse has been identified, then individual counselling is often used on both sides to look at the root causes/fundamental behaviours. But couples counselling can be a very valuable springboard for getting couples to recognise abuse and see where further support for change may be needed. (It can cut through that whole narrative of abuser-as-victim that is so often peddled by those perpetrating abuse - perhaps in this case also?).

Hope this makes sense, I'm not feeling well today and fear I'm writing in a really muddled way!

Struggling

I am sorry to read that you are not feeling 100%, hope you are feeling better soon:).

OP has tried non confrontational already and got the tears from him for her troubles.

How though is someone really supposed to get past this?. The reason why couples counselling is not recommended in the first place (and no decent counsellor worth their salt would ever seen OP and her H together) is because many abusive men use these sessions to bamboozle the counsellor and play the victim role to the counsellor whilst blaming the other person for all the problems in the relationship.

Do you think OPs H would actually be open to any counselling in the first place?. I doubt very much he would attend any such sessions anyway and there is no suggestion on here that he has even mentioned the word. He is many years work for even the most forgiving of therapists.

I would agree with you that potentially he could make any separation very hard because of wanting to maintain the power and control. However, I do not think that such a man would take any real or long term interest in his children anyway. I also think that OPs H feels he has done nothing at all wrong in the first place.

It is a mistaken that abuse is related to "misunderstandings" or lack of communication. If discussion and compromise, the mainstay of mediation, could help in any way most domestic violence situations would be long ago resolved because victims of abuse "discuss and compromise" constantly. Mediation assumes both parties will cooperate to make agreements work; the victim has always 'cooperated' with the abuser; the abuser never cooperates.

If counselling is to be done here the OP should go on her own so she can talk freely and openly in a safe and controlled environment.

Can we just establish that Abuse is not a 'problem' within the relationship, it's a CHOICE by one of the parties.

As such it can't be solved it can only be solved.

Couples counselling where abuse is present in a relationship is about the most single most dangerous thing that can happen to someone who is being abused by their partner. Relate, for example, refuses to counsel couples where abuse is a factor.

What happens is that the abuser/manipulator gets the unsuspecting therapist hoodwinked and enlists them as a weapon to further weaken and undermine their victim. There have been many threads from women who have undergone therapy and have suffered immeasurably.

Agreed that therapy where abuse is a factor is not impossible, but the general standard of relationship counselling available to most is so woeful, that to find a proper competent and qualified therapist that IS able to see through an abuser's tactics is like looking for the smallest pin in a field full of haystacks. I happen to know ONE, but that is because I am involved in DV charities and have a few good contacts.

Allow me to remind here that this abuse will never ever go away by itself

Physical abuse/violence are actually easier to overcome and heal from as bruises DO heal by themselves. Emotional/psychological abuse and the harm it does to us will stay until it is addressed.

Abuse is SO harmful that getting yourself and your family away from it really is the most important step you can take, as it does provide the headspace to start to see the wood for the trees.

Can we also please STOP dismissing the views of women who have been through this and out the other side? there is as far as I can see, not one poster here who is merely bitter at being cheated on who is wading in with advice.

Saving an abusive relationship is just about the most counterproductive thing in the world.

The abuser could, if they wanted to, stop this stuff today, now, but they don't. they won't ever stop, not without a HUGE reason to do so. Wagging a finger and asking nicely won't do it.

As such it can't be solved it can only be stopped. Sorry.

AnyFucker

I couldn't live with that OP. He needs telling.

I've got enormous respect for attilla and hissy and some of the other posters - they have experience and have so often (even in the relatively short time ive been on mumsnet) seen things for what they were when the original poster has been lost in a fog.

But on this one, I woudl respectfully say that give him one chance to start changing. People can slip into bad ways of behaving, specially if they've had bad parents as models, and don't realise until they are picked up on it.

A good solid conversation like the one you've had with him, pulling no punches, gives him feedback on his behaviour which he may not have even realised. It sounds as though it's possible (only possible) that it may make him realise what he has been doing.

If he responds positively then it would take time for him to change his habits; they creep up insidiously. You woudl have to keep challenging him, like you're planning to do. A PP's idea of keeping a record of his insults, tyrannical moments and bad temper sounds a really good idea. Over time, see if he's improving - genuinely improving - or if his tears were temporary and he falls right back into the horrible behaviour. I'd be livid if anyone called my son a useless fuck too - never mind his parent!

OP I read that and just felt sorry that you are all living with an insensitive, hard-headed bully. I wish you would just get out, leave him so you and your DCs can live in peace without him spoiling your happiness and disrupting the flow in your family home. Aren't you sick to death of him? Your DCs will probably grow up and leave home at the 1st opportunity to geet away from him - I know I would. You could end up having to suffer minimal contact from then when they do leave, as they wont be able to stand being around him. You'll get no thanks for staying with him thats for sure, even if its from an 'I stayed for the sake of the family' angle. My DM says that and all these years later I still roll my eyes, as do my siblings, when she trots out that old line. He wasn't as bad as your DH but my mum stayed as it was easier to put up with rubbish for the sake of security, than go it alone with us for the chance of happiness.

Don't waste your years on this man. Look down the years and be brutally honest about how you will end up if you stay with him. No man is worth wasting your good years on if he doesn't have the kindness, sense and humility to know that a relationship is to be treasured.

Who cares if he cries. He's as bully, turning on the tears won't change that even if he genuinely feels sad at the time he is crying. I agree with Hissy - unless he changes radically, and immediately, then he has to go.

As horrible as an abusive childhood is, its not actually your job in life to do penance and live in turmoil for the sake of it. He needs to stop the noise and go and seek therapy. Good for you giving him a wakeup call and letting him know he must change. Hopefully he will seek the help he needs (please don't go with him - let him go and explore his issues/feelings in a private space - its his issue, not yours) and things will change for the better for you al. Good luck

I can get on board with the suggestion to giving somebody one chance. In practice, however, you've got to be v v careful, because an abuser will almost immediately start testing your boundaries. If you don't like behaviour x, they'll start with little acts that fall short of x. It will be something that makes you uncomfortable, but so minor that you'd feel foolish to mention it. Why cause a row over a small thing, when he's trying to tackle the big issue, right? And if you do protest, he'll say "But oh, I'm not doing x, you're not being fair, I can't do anything right, waah". So you let it go. The next time, they push it that little bit further. But you let the last thing go, so how can you start making a fuss now? And so on and on it goes, each time by increments till you've lost all sight of where you tried to place the boundary in the first place.

I'm not saying that will automatically be the case here. I'm just saying that before a woman leaves, she will almost always have tried taking a stand, setting boundaries, and will have found that when the dust has settled, nothing has really changed at all.

So when giving someone a chance, it has to be absolutely zero tolerance. You need to be on the lookout for boundary testing, and you really have to keep a diary or something so that you can make a note of anything that makes you uneasy, and see if there is any kind of pattern forming. And if you see that pattern forming, of someone who just doesn't respect any boundaries, you've got to be true to your word and leave.

Too many women have poured years of their energy in trying to fix abusive men. It's energy they'd be better off devoting to their dcs and themselves.