Husband has patriarchal ideals...

[LucyBucy]

We've been together for 12 years and his patriarchal ideals have always grated but in the last 6 months I've been wondering if I can stand much more of it. He has a "do as I say, not as I do" approach to me and my daughters, gets angry if his approach is questioned, hates the girls or me having the last word on a decision and stomps off muttering to himself about how I always get my own way - which just isn't true.
He wants the girls to do what he wants with no questions. Yesterday he got angry because they didnt want to go to judo (his choice of class) and called them useless fucks (though when they were out of ear shot). Today he got angry with me and our 5 year old because I let her off getting dressed because she's been under the weather lately. I hate his behaviour and it seems to mirror his own upbringing - powerlessness as a child with an abusive father who will still tell his kids theyre useless even now.
Am feeling quite tearful and dont know how to get through to him without having a shouty argument that his behaviour doesnt fit in our family :-(.

LucyBucy,

re your comments:-

"We've just had a talk and there was a lot of crying on both sides.

Your tears were likely genuine but his were not.

"He was non-plussed about how bad our relationship is (I've just realised that we are about as distant as his parents so no wonder he thinks we're doing ok with them as a blue print) and was equally non-plussed about how abusive and controlling he is. I hope I have opened his eyes to an alternative way of life"

I doubt that very much actually because he is non-plussed about the whole relationship generally. He is not wanting to take any responsibility here for his actions let alone apologise for same. If he has not had a clue previously what difference will one conversation on the subject make now?. None that is what.

And why are you still wanting

What did you learn about relationships when growing up, did you see a similar rotten dynamic?.

"I want to give him a chance in the hope of saving our family rather than just throwing in the towel immediately."

How many chances have you already given him though, how many times have you already minimised or excused this within your home?

So why are you still together at all, is it for the children?. You cannot burden a child with a choice that you have made. Is this really the model of a relationship you want to show them, both of you between you are teaching your children very damaging lessons. If you did stay your children as adults could well despise you as their mother because they could ask you why you put him before them. They will not appreciate at all being told, "well I stayed because of you".

Thank you, Hissy, I agree. He tried to down play the useless fucks comment but I'm not buying that he didn't mean it, i think he did in that moment. I plan on being VERY challenging from now on. Therapy for him is a great idea. I was thinking of couples counselling but actually I think he could do with it.

He has already shown that he has no intention of changing; he knows no different as it is and will continue with those behaviours.

You have accepted this treatment of you to date for your own reasons; I have to look also at you and ask you why you have done so.

"Therapy for him is a great idea. I was thinking of couples counselling but actually I think he could do with it".

Therapy for him will involve years of work even if he is willing to undergo same which I doubt.

Were you not aware that couples counselling as well is NEVER recommended in abusive relationships?. This is because the abuser uses such sessions to further verbally bash their chosen victim, such men can too easily manipulate counsellors as well. If counselling is to be considered go on your own and work out for yourself properly what you want from life going forward.

It takes a lot for him to cry so I do believe they were genuine tears. I'm very much a bottler so he probably didn't realise his words were causing me pain and it shocked him to hear it.
You might be right, Attila, about one conversation not being enough but I'm determined not to bottle up my feelings from now on and to call him on anything he says/does that is unreasonable.
We're together because we work well as a team (when he isn't being controlling). There is love there but I can't say it's a major thing as we've grown quite distant over the last few years.
I know the absolute worst thing is to stay together because of the children, I'm with him still I guess because 95% of the time we get on well and those times keep me going.
I really appreciate all your comments. I'm quite shocked by how many of are telling me to leave him immediately. Is this based on what you did?

Love, you have no idea of the power you hold in your hands right now...

"You called our DD'S "useless fucks" should be routinely repeated at him whenever and wherever he attempts to state any single thing in your household from now on. He is on a yellow card. One more and he's gone. He has to know that.

As it goes, over the next couple of days, once the shock of what he's done has passed, you may get very bloody angry about all this and decide that actually you can't live with someone who is so hideously insulting about your babies.

Be prepared, this matter's not even started, let alone ended.

I rather think that the one that's got the biggest wake up call here love is you. :(

You're seeing just how vile he really is, how damaged and abusive he is, and how contemptuous and hateful of women he is.

Yes he needs therapy. You would benefit too, but never in a gazillion years should you have counselling together.

If you find your thoughts beginning to race, that's normal, and necessary, please come and post here and we'll hold hands, gentle shake, soft pat you through this, whatever it takes to get you and your girls to a place where you're all valued and not insulted and worn away.

You've been so strong for so long, but this surely is a line crossed. You'd be totally justified in thinking it was, don't ever think your opinion isn"t valid.

You are the only person who can protect your girls right now. Whatever you need to do that, please ask and we'll advise/ help or just listen.

I've just re-read my first sentence. Rethink. Of course he understood his words hurt. I think he was crying because he's never been called on his behaviour before. Also, he now knows he's in deep shit.

We very often become parents very similar to how our own parents were. He was probably brought up in this sort of environment and therefore feels that this is the accepted way to bring up children. It's amazing how much good can be done during family therapy and wonder if there is anyway your family could find a way of accessing that. It might be a good idea if your children could tell their dad that he is upsetting them and hurting their feeling? Perhaps it's time to try and find a little bit of time for yourselves and each other so there are other outlets other than the children all the time. Perhaps he is quietly very frustrated that they seem to totally consume both of you. I don't know your DH at all so I speak with no notion of his personality but perhaps he is really a decent bloke who just needs to be educated in how best to raise children or perhaps he really is a total bastard. Keep talking, try and listen to where the other person is coming from and see if there is any hope for this family to successfully stay together.

Thank you hissy. That was good to hear. Maybe I am in denial but I hope to god I'm not.

'is this based on what you did?'

Sadly the answer to that is often no.

Usually it's that our mother stood by while we were verbally worn down/torn to pieces.

In many cases we then go on to involve ourselves with men who verbally/psychologically/physically abused us.

Sometimes we'd see the comments start to creep in with our children.

But looking back, we all know that the terrible pain we feel within stems from hideous things our parent(s) said or allowed to be said. That pain ends up irrationally damaging, won't go away until you pay the therapy bills, read the books and do the hard work to minimise it. The stain's there forever.

I worry about the tears. He knows what he said was beyond disgusting, I suspect he's cried to throw you off the scent.

These people will do/say anything to carry on their power trip.

You think therapy would be a good idea for him. What does he think? Did he admit that his behaviour is controlling and bullying and tell you that he will seek professional help?

You're in shock love, I think that'll pass.

Yes, the tears are for him. Can you see that?

I'm so sorry. If I could make this 'unhappen' for you, I would. :(

Wow. That is quite an impressive turn around. I really hope for your children's sake it is how you think it is and he hasn't just cried to shut you up. Did he apologise?

I have to go, but before I do, please know that however painful this is, or turns out to be, you will get through this to the other side.

The other side will be heavenly in comparison, with or without him.

He only gets to be with you on the other side of this if he takes full and entire responsibility for this, and singlehandedly works day and night to fix himself and repair any damage made.

He'll be worth keeping then. Anything less than this? He's taking up the space of where a good man could be. Or the space where you and your girls can be a happy family of 'girls'

If he's smart, this could be the making of him. If he's not, this could be the making you YOU, as you learn that you and your dd's are worth better than being called useless and fucks.

I know you can't see it, but this can be a positive situation eventually.

A lot of abusers are good with the big boohoo when they're called on their behaviour. It doesn't mean they are going to change the behaviour - it's just that a few tears are the magic button that will allow them to carry on doing what they like. Crying at the woman they consider their property, promising to change or saying sorry is their equivalent of putting a bit of oil in the car or a new battery in the smoke alarm - just a task to perform for normal service to resume.

Something to contemplate, if you're not ready to kick him out yet, though: try laughing at him. When he starts to throw his weight about, tell him not to be so silly, ignore his orders, do whatever you were doing anyway.

If the thought of doing that is scary, if you think that mockery will make him attack you or DC physically, then that is a very clear indicatior that you need to get him out of the house and as far out of your lives as possible.

I am glad for your last paragraph SGB as I was concerned your initial advice would result in him being violent.

I think you're already doomed OP.

How can a parent speak about their children in such a derogatory way?

He is an abusive shit, his tears were for himself and that's all.

I'd LTB in all honesty. I also would be worried about my daughter's in case they view this type of relationship as normal.

Patriarchal is when the man is the provider, leader, protector of the family and therefore expects/demands a certain amount of respect and "obedience". And still he will respect the people in his care, respects their opinions and input, and knows his responsibility towards his family. Your husband doesn't seem like that. He is a bully and has no respect for you or your kids. Draw the line, demand the respect and love you and your kids deserve, or show him the door.

"I'm with him still I guess because 95% of the time we get on well and those times keep me going".

No I do not buy it. That's your own denial of the situation to date right there. His supposed 5% of the time he is horrid is a bloody big five percent and if you were to put it really in percentage terms its far bloody higher than that.

Look at what is really happening here in front of your eyes. You are not powerless and are not as powerless as you think you are.

Do you know what the acceptable level of abuse is within a relationship?.
That's right NONE. Repeat - NONE.

Stop normalising this for your children. Do not be the mother who watches her H emotionally beat up you and by turn his children whilst you passively stand there and watch.

I would also very much like to know LucyBucy what you yourself learnt about relationships when growing up as well.

What do you want to teach your children about relationships here and what are they learning here from you both?.

Anybody that called my child a "useless fuck" would be out of my life, no more questions asked

It would take a while, probably with divorce and division of assets etc....but gone he would be

This really doesn't sound right, OP. The man cries when you call him on his vile behaviour towards your beloved children. Of course he does - he knows he's rumbled and you are thinking to taking drastic action. Crocodile tears - he wants to maintain the status quo - doesn't want to lose his lifestyle, you running around after him, and probably running all the time on eggshells in case you upset him and he calls you or his children horrible names. You say you get on well '95 % of the time' - really, are you being totally honest about that?

You should read Lundy Bancroft's book 'Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men'. It's a real eye-opener, OP.

OK, you've had your talk and he's howled his eyes out, and maybe there'll be a sort of 'honeymoon' period where he's all loving charm, but believe me, it won't last. It's too ingrained in him and he'll revert to type. Watch out, OP. If you want to give him a chance, by all means do, but at the same time, start a 'just in case' plan, quietly sorting out financial stuff, so when the shit REALLY hits the fan and he once more becomes abusive and awful, you have your exit plan all up and ready. And I don't see why YOU and your kids should leave. In that event, he should go.

I have to agree with the PPs, OP. He sounds like a nasty, poisonous woman-hater, and I just don't think men like that change. As Oldgrandmama said, their revolting attitudes are ingrained.

You and you daughters deserve better....the creep's treatment of them, his abuse and his attitude, could be catastrophic for them if you do not get away from him.

Keep a diary and mark each day that passes without incident. Make sure you are not tiptoeing around him though, or anticipating what might trigger him.

Live your life as you would like it for yourself and your daughters and keep track of how many remarks, criticisms, demands, insults there are. Record them somewhere, you might be surprised at their frequency.

A man like that isn't going to change overnight. Something will happen again, it will happen soon and he will probably say it was your fault for making him feel xyz...

Build up a picture of what it is really like living with him.

He won't change.

You need to leave. That's how you save your family, by not allowing someone so toxic to be part of it.