DP finance mess - am i also to blame and how do you get the trust back?

[foolforlove]

Medium term lurker, first time posting. Will try not to drip feed. apologies that it is so long.

DP and I have been together 3 years. 18 month old DD. Engaged and pregnant within the first year - all planned and very happy. Whilst on maternity leave (about a year ago) we saw a financial planner and sorted through everything - a bit like doing a finance MOT.

We sorted insurance, pension, did finance risk assessments, got everything on the table. I have a savings personality (my dad was rubbish with money growing up, got into massive debt, hid it from my mum and the bank took the house when I was a teenager). I vowed never to lose control of my finances. DP has a spending personality (mostly because he used to work in roles with decent commissions - so if he got into debt - he'd have cash to pay it off later)

we have a joint account that wages go into and separate credit cards as well. I always pay off my credit card. It came out he had about 10,000 in credit card debt. Financial adviser suggested using some of my savings to clear the debts. I transferred money to make it happen. We're a team, right?

Fastforward 6-12 months and I'm more and more aware we don't seem to be saving any money, going backward actually even with me back at work FT. And also that we are living a bit too extravagantly. everything from nights out - to stupid investments on part shares in race horses (and we don't have that sort of money - more like 500 pounds for a 1% share). Yes we are idiots.

I finally sit down and go through one months worth of spend - every detail. I'm horrified to realise not only do we get through all our wages but we overspend by about 20%. And there's a transfer that came out of our savings for another 2500 for racing on top of that.

We sit down and go through it - and it comes out that it's not just money from the current account that we're going through. The credit card debt is still 10,000. racked up again and he's taken a personal loan out to pay it off. the racing transfer was a mistake - meant to be 250 and will be transferred back. i feel sick about it but also feel like i am to blame also - i was enjoying the extravagance too and not delving into it. he'd even mentioned consolidating the cards into a personal loan and I was so wrapped up in work and DD that I just didn't get into the detail.

it's 3 weeks on and i can't shake the feeling/haven't been able to have the big confrontation that i know i need to have. to get to the point to take out a personal loan - he must have been chased by credit card companies for months - which meant he hid that from me. he ripped up and put a statement from one of his credit card companies straight in the bin the same day it all came out and told me later it was just a final statement on the transfer. I don't believe him. And the racing transfer hasn't come back into our account yet.

We fought about it a week or so ago and he accused me of not trusting him and believing he was a liar. I said it was about transparency and moving forward. He sent me a screen grab of his total bank accounts and I saw that the total amount owing was more like 15K.

He's given me his last credit card and his current account card. I've done a strict budget that he's keeping to and only giving him small amounts of cash. He's on board with it all and feeling really positive and you can see he's actually happier.

But I can't shake the feeling that there is still more to come. He believes he's being transparent. I want access to his passwords/bank accounts and statements. If we budget properly we can pay it off over time. (a lot of time) But I'm scared it will get worse if I don't take control now.

Am I just being a fool? I can focus on the sorting the money bit but I'm lost on how to sort the relationship. I thought we had a strong partnership where we were open with each other. Now I don't trust him and feel like I'm hiding from a proper confrontation about it. Everything else about our relationship is great - but at the same time, it can't be if he was hiding this can it?

Christ, I know you want to stay together but I can't see it working ... he obviously has not just an irresponsible attitude to money but a gambling habit too. I foresee a life of misery and anxiety for you ... a horrid see-saw of financial problems, bailing him out yet again, awful uncertainty and possibly even eventual bankruptcy.

Sorry to be so pessimistic. If I were you, I'd be thanking my lucky stars I'm not married to him ... and I'd run for the hills, leaving him to sort out his own mess. I don't suppose you will ... but at least DON'T let him get his hands on your one asset, your rental property.

If you want to keep a joint account for household expenses, of course you can, but you must also have your own sole account where you keep the money that you don't want to disappear.

He's a gambler?

Leave. Now. While your child is still a baby.

Seriously.

Hiya - you should have kept finances completely separate and you need to quickly move back to that now. Separate everything. You can each take what's fair of household bills.

Keep a formal record of how much he owes you and tell him you can't see a future unless he gets on the financial straight and narrow in a few years (give him a deadline).

Did/does he have rich parents? It's quite often men who do that get into these messes. If he does, tell him to ask them for £20K now to pay off the debts.

Oh dear. There is a fundamental difference in belief systems around money here. Even if you manage to get yourselves back on track this time, will you be willing to hold the purse strings forever? Someone who gambles online when they're 10k in debt is not going to change overnight into someone who saves. Have you tried talking to your mother to ask her thoughts? She has lived through making the choice to stay. What would she advise her younger self to do, with hindsight?

Spending personality my arse, this man is a financial leech whose fecklessness could blight his child's future, he should be ashamed but he isn't because he's never had to experience the consequences of his behaviour because you have bailed him out.

Separate your finances now! No joint accounts as it gives you a false sense of security and leaves you liable. Demand that he transfers his share of living expenses to your account and get regular credit reports.

This is the price of being with this man.

Protect yourself and judge him by his actions and not the by his crocodile tears.

When he gets this commission in June I would be asking for the £10,000 back to put you back where you were before you were given terrible advice to pay off his debts. You aren't a team. You can't be when one part doesn't want to play by the rules.

My exh - as one of his many faults - was an appalling spendthrift. He had come from a family that had been wealthy and lost the lot. Had no sense of self-restraint and never saved up for anything. Always spent money on the basis that one day 'his ship would come in'.

How I managed it with him was to have separate personal finances. He had a Standing Order set up to go into a joint account to pay for household expenses and the rest he was supposed to manage. Made the mistake, like you, of thinking that if I let him reduce his contribution, he'd pay off his debts quicker. Whenever I tried talking to him about budgets, he'd fly off the handle and treat it as a personal attack. The relationship failed for that and other reasons and by the time he left (and we're talking 20 years ago) he had racked up an overdraft of £10,000+ and god knows how much on credit cards. Luckily, because I'd kept everything separate, his debts went with him.

However, it is very stressful living like that. Even if you want to make a go of it like I did, there's always some surprise expense round the corner or some huge CC bill. You're not working as a team when he's spending it faster than you can earn it.... and has nothing to show at the end of the day.

Yeah- you really shouldn't have done that with your savings, not unless you were going to make a pretty penny off it yourself i.e. get a lawyer to write it up with a regular monthly payment AND interest (slightly under what he'd pay the banks). You've had such crap advice!

If he gets a bonus in June do NOT pay off debts with it. Put it in your bank account and tell him to whistle for it. It will go some way towards replacing your savings that he spunked away. He's basically spent 10k of your money hasn't he?

I,like COG,married someone who'd never had to think about money. He runs his own business,and I dealt with the finances,until I became ill. Since then,we've had to remortgage the house to the tune of 200k,because of all his cc debts,and loans. I thought that was the end of the debts but just discovered that he's racked up a further 20k. In all honesty,if I were not so heavily reliant on him, I'd probably leave him. You are free to do so,OP. The lack of trust is so corrosive.

The biggest worry I think, is that he is a gambler. The online gambling AND the racehorse show that clearly.
That's far trickier to ever get past than someone who is poor at budgeting or generally feckless.

I read Debt-Free-Wannabe board on MSE sometimes. I saw one recently, a guy had really messed up with payday loans. With advice and support from the board, he came back to post that he had repayment plan in place helped by a debt charity, was feeling better. All good. You'd think he'd had what they call on there "a lightbulb moment".
Then he popped up a few months later, repayment all going well. Just had an unexpected £8K pay rise. Asking, should I increase my debt payment, or just enjoy the extra money? Which showed me he had not changed at all. That will be your partner - he has to do this himself.

But gambler? Run now.

been there, had a ex husband like that, escaped and ran like hell, you do the same and don't look back !

Just to be clear, he's racked up ten grand of credit card debt in a year? As in, he had 10K, you paid it off (what kind of financial advice you were getting I do not know) and then he ran it up again.

And this is supposedly having a job that means he has plenty of money coming in, just the occasional cashflow hiccup in between commissions. You can bet your arse when the June bonus comes in he will have mentally spent it all already.

he's put our future as a family in jeopardy and will have to work incredibly hard to demonstrate he an and will change

Will he? You've rationed him down to pocket money. He's given you no information except a screenshot of the total amounts, meaning it's extremely likely he doesn't want you to go in and see what was on the statements (at a guess, gambling on a scale that will freak you out). He's done nothing, in essence, just had it done to him.

He's given you the cards but he can be spending online without the physical cards without any difficulty at all.

You mention 'our savings', does that mean you had or have a joint savings account? I'm assuming you have removed his access to that pot of money?

I have nc'd for this as ten years on and out of the marriage I can't believe I was so stupid. My ExH ran up huge debts on credit cards, drinking, gambling and generally behaving like flash harry, eventually reaching the stage where he was drawing cash on the credit cards to pay the minimum payment then taking out another credit card when that one hit the limit. I was in charge of the household finances and he gave me a cheque every month for the mortgage and bills so thankfully all that was ok.

Once it reached £25K and he totally lost control, he persuaded me to remortgage the house to pay it off. Which I did. Because I'm a fool.

Within a few months the credit card bills started arriving again, which he shredded. Eventually I pieced one together and confronted him. He eventually left.

When he died in a car crash a few months later, he'd run up £40K in new debt in two years.

You are not the only one to want to have faith in your partner but either watch him like a hawk or make the decision to go. That may seem harsh but I deeply regret bailing him out. I kept hold of the house but now have a mortgage for more than I paid for it.

OP run for the hills. I was in the same position almost exactly with my ex. I ended up controlling household budget, both our "spends" etc etc and thought "we" were getting the debt problem (entirely his but I was trying to be a team ) under control.

A few years down the line, we are no longer together and by the skin of my teeth and with help from my parents I have been able to keep a roof over my dcs heads. Don't do it to yourself.

foolforlove is an apt name isn't it.

Firstly you need to separate your finances from this dead weight. To be honest if my husband was in debt there is no way I would pay off his debt using MY savings and if I was stupid enough to do so if he then went and racked up more debt on said credit card I would leave him. He clearly has no respect for you because if he did he wouldn't racked up debt on that credit car again be spending beyond his means.

You need to put all wedding ideas on hold and gain access to his credit report to see what debt he has. He seems to be withholding information.

Also joint account? You should have your salary paid into a separate account in your name only then transfer the relevant amount into the joint account each month.

Also don't be naive you are not getting this elusive £2500 back.

I think you are in the situation your mum finds herself in, husband/partner is a dead weight financially and you are the only solvent one. Is that what you really want?

Good Luck I think you will need it.

Bar having a daughter, I could have posted this exact same thread ten years ago.
My ex's huge debts (£26k on his salary of £17k) only came to light when we'd made an offer on a house. Being a 'fixer' I helped him sort out his debts, budgeted, took on extra work so we got a free house etc.
The real issue was that he was selfish, 'entitled' and prepared to lie/hide things to get what he wanted.

He would buy himself new gadgets, posh food, give money away to others, and then expect me to pay for his car tax, food, bills. If I complained, he would aggressively whine about me being tight and controlling.
I did enjoy it when I told him I was leaving him for his cheating, and he'd better look for a flat; he told me I had to pay for his deposit and rent. Yeah, right. .
Don't be me, OP, protect yourself and your daughter, and let him take responsibility for himself.

Ok - he came back early from his trip and we had a big talk. Properly. No fighting. No being defensive or trying to shift focus. Him full of remorse and taking full responsibility for both the mess and letting me down - especially with my history.

The 2.5k is gone - 12 months stabling fees on the useless horses. A bill he hadnt even known/thought about. Supposed to be shared with a mate - maybe we get half back maybe not.

We talked a lot about how and why. It's not gambling though will wait to confirm after i see the accounts which he has promised I can have access to. It's living the high life and always beyond his means. He openly admitted he has never had to live within his wages. Has never had to take responsibility. Commission cheques have always bailed him out or set him up for the next quarter/half.

But he changed jobs last year and missed two cycles of commission and never caught up. And didnt change his behavior despite me handing over my savings.

And some stuff is so dumb. A fortune on a painting for my birthday from a gallery I once visited in the usa. And then nearly half that again on customs fees to get it in the country. I told him I wouldn't be in the office on valentines so he sent flowers and chocs every day leading up to it for a week as much to show off to my colleagues i think. Shouting everyone at dinner even though they'd be happy to pay.

I explained again and again and now again that these things are not what I want. Movie tickets on my birthday would have been fine. A text to show he's thinking of me.

He's saying all the right things. Will cut up his last credit card. I get access to his accounts. Will only spend what I say he can. Will sit with me to review the budget regularly and learn how to do it and actually know the outgoings. And has promised to hand over his commission cheque in full to me in June.

regardless of how much it may or may not bail us out we've agreed i get to call the financial shots for a year. I'll do the budget and the pocket money and the monitoring so he can learn and so I can be protected. I am going to get a credit report to check again. And he has to demonstrate he is committed to change and earn back my trust.

I've told him he has to change in that time. I'm not going to be his mother handing out pocket money for ever. And not talking about challenges or issues aling the way is not an option.

I know he can talk a good talk. This time he heard from me that words will not make this better. Only action. And he has put our family and our relationship in jeopardy - something I won't ever tolerate again.

What would have to happen to convince you

a) he has changed and you will keep him?

b) he has not changed and you will not keep him?

Sounds like he's addicted to the apparent feel good factor some people get from spending money.

I don't think he'll ever have the self-control to budget for himself or use cards responsibly.

Whether you can be bothered with that is your business.

I think he is paying lip service sadly - and he has lied about money to you? The £2.5K that you were going to get back - how many more times does he have to be dishonest I wonder.

Op 2 things: I'm a spender but I would never get into that much debt twice in 3 yrs and I have a mortgage. It's beyond a normal over spender type. A close friend had a dh like this, he resorted to fraud and abuse when she ran out of money to fund him. Please cut him off financially except for directly paying your share of the bills, please. See if he can repay, and if, in 18 months he doesn't have any secret accounts (credit check him on credit expert etc), he's paid his debts and has savings, maybe you have a future. Otherwise I suspect a manipulative personality that's using you, sorry to say.

Love, he is a gambler, whether he admits it or not. This is one of the hardest addictions to overcome - if not the hardest. All these things he's saying he'll do to improve the situation, didn't he say them all the last time? And was the result? He got into even more debt.
As with any addiction, you can't control this, you can't cure this, and you didn't cause it. You now taking the financial reigns means that he is not taking any responsibility for his actions.
Incidentally, have you thought about what's your line in the sand? If he does keep on hiding things from you and does get into even more debt, what are you going to do then? And even if he doesn't, are you prepared for the fact that you are never going to be able to relax and trust him, that you are going to have to be hyper-vigilant for ever more?
Am really scared for you OP, I do hope it works out but I fear the worst.