Are there any decent men out there ?!

[lemonbabe]

I'm in my early 40's and separated. At first I was quite excited by the thought of meeting a normal, loving man and building a future together. Fastforward a couple of years down the line and a trail of failed relationships/dates and I'm becoming more and more disillusioned with men. It seems virtually impossible to meet someone who's not already taken, gay or mentally unstable. Is it the age ? Is is modern life ? Is it men being @rses ? Or all of the above ? It's hard being a single parent, doing everything alone. Friends are great of course but I'd love to meet someone special. I just feel too young to throw in the towel and begin imagining the rest of my life alone. Anyone feeling the same ?

See I think that's a big part of my downfall too - I just don't fancy short, overweight, bald, old men. I fancy young, tall, buff, hot, young, flashy guys and they are knobs. I can have those nice but not good looking men as friends but when I think of kissing them or sleeping with them it all just goes horribly wrong and whilst I can accept on one hand that this is very shallow of me, I can't sleep with someone I don't fancy or get physically turned on by. I'm ruling out a lot of men because they don't have Holywood hunk good looks. Also it's an effort thing - I still look good, I wear make up and nice clothes, heels, matching sexy underwear, I keep my figure in shape and I make sure I'm always shaved and waxed and moisturised and smelling good, too many men turn up stinking, unshaven, wearing scruffy tracky bums and a casual scruffy t-shirt, stuffing their face with something fattening and smelly and greasy then expect me to be turned on and want to kiss them. Sorry, no, not going to happen. And when you do give in & give them a chance and sleep with them they put in no effort, have no idea what they are doing, last all of 2 thrusts and that's it, never think that actually you may want to finish off too, never put themselves out to actually learn how to work a woman's body, they are just selfish! Even when you try to teach them they don't bother, their arm aches, can't I just do it myself, what they have to do foreplay every single time... I'm so bored of unsatisfactory sex that I'd rather have none than a constant disappointment.

My cousin is a decent guy in his late 30s, and can't seem to find anyone. He's even tall! His thing is that he finds it really hard to decide if a relationship is right or not, so will date for 6 months or so but then has broken things off. On the one side I reckon he’s overthinking things, but it is a big commitment that you don’t want to get wrong. I’m the other side, got married mid twenties and have two kids, but my wife has basically fallen out of love with me (it is much more complicated than that). I’m happy enough carrying on for the moment – there aren't abuse issues, we do get on and are on the same page with how we bring up the kids – but I do miss the affection and sex.

But I don’t really see that splitting up and trying to find a new relationship is a great idea. I’d be coming with the baggage of children (which seems to turn women away more than a woman having kids is a problem for men), and it would be hard on the kids. What’s worse – being lonely in a relationship or lonely outside of one?

whatis - see my post on the previous page. It is absolutely worse being lonely in a relationship than out of one, believe me.

We all have 'baggage' of some sort. I'm an unmarried man of 40 with no kids and I may as well be Adolf Hitler. The fact that I've never been married is a red flag to many (the fact that I had a 10-year relationship longer than plenty of actual marriages doesn't count). And the fact that I am single with no kids is a red flag to many, because it means I must be a commitmentphobe or have something wrong with me because "good guys wouldn't be single". And I must, of course, be looking for a woman of 30 because I must want to procreate immediately now I am 40.

People need to stop thinking about baggage and preconceptions and just find out who people ARE. That's what dating is about, isn't it?

Being lonely in a relationship is far worse.

I think previous relationship history does play a factor ridiculously. In the last few years I dated someone who had never been married or had kids and his longest previous relationship was only 2 years - I soon found out why - he was emotionally shut down, had no feelings, it was all practical, physical, logical and cold, if I'm going to be in a relationship rather than a casual sex thing then I want some feelings somewhere. Another had a few long term relationships and kids and again I found out why - he's a serial monogamist desperate for a happy ever after & true love and it doesn't matter who with as long as it's long term, committed, very heavily embroiled and intensely one on one, I want someone compatible, not just willing to commit!

On the one hand I want someone who is used to kids, knows what it is to look after them properly, put them first and be a proper parent (though having kids is no indictation that they are any good with them as I have learnt the hard way!) but then I don't want my daughter feeling pushed out or jealous that someone else's child is getting my attention so I would be open to a father or not. But yes at this age I would be wondering why they've not been married or had kids and if they'll really be any good with my kids and understand them and the boundaries of a step parent relationship as compared to a parental relationship, have they been a player in which case I do not want to be the first commitment they've had, I'm too old to be their experiment finding their way in a solid relationship, and I do not want to have to deal with hiccups and mistakes they'll make with my child if they're not used to kids or the battle of them having to learn they are not my priority and my kids will always come before them.

I agree with those who have questioned whether their friends & female relatives are really happy as I look at the men in my girlfriends & family's lives and I think they are not good enough for them and do not treat them properly and I would not stand for their attitudes and actions.

Maybe no one is really happy, maybe people just think staying is better than leaving. Maybe I do have unrealistic expectations of happiness, confidence, empowerment and respect within a relationship. Maybe everyone does have a deal-breaker but people just put up with it regardless? I dunno. I'd still rather be single than putting up with bullshit.

whatis being lonely in a relationship is so much worse that being on your own. To be sitting next to someone on the sofa, having dinner with them, lying next to them and all the while you're yearning for companionship is soul destroying. I've been on both sides of the coin and my own company is far more uplifting than the alternative.

I agree it's worse being lonely in a relationship than out of it. At least single you have the freedom to assuage that loneliness through friends and hobbies. In fact, the only time I've ever felt lonely is in a relationship. I felt far more fulfilled as a single person because I had a much better life, particularly socially, overall.

I think so-called baggage is a useful means of weeding out twats. I have two DC. Anyone who considered them baggage would be out on their ear even if I just wanted a casual sex-based relationship only (I am cursed with an ability to find ludicrously attractive arseholes sexy even if I just want NSA sex).

Obviously children changed the way I conducted my new relationship and necessarily slowed things down, but I when it came to a LTR I was looking for the sort of man who felt privileged that he'd been allowed access to our family unit after earning my trust rather than the sort of man who felt he was doing me a favour by taking me and my baggage on. That told me I had a man who understood about the importance of family stability, children's feelings, trust and integrity - all qualities I wanted in a potential partner.

The thing is some people have lots of commitments and due to a lovely personality and good boundaries can still conduct a relationship very well and be a great 'catch'. Others have very little responsibility and can't manage it at all. I don't care a jot about 'baggage' - I am far more interested in personality, attitude and values. The older I've got, the more I've found that these can actually generate sexual attraction.

I was in an abusive marriage which ended 3 years ago. I didnt for a second really think I would end up alone even at the beginning of the separation. Then about a year ago I started a relationship with an old bf from my school days who was also separated. We had stayed in touch and had been over the years and always seemed to retain the chemistry. All my friends though it a match made in heaven, and I was very happy .....for a little while. I missed a big red flag before we got together. He started on line dating. I told him it was too soon but he had to do it. He was totally boosted by the number of women he heard from and went on quite a few dates. They were all "no good" for the most trivial of reasons. On one occasion he dismissed the woman because she dressed too formally! Wtf? He had a great date with her that she organised and they had a really interesting day out. I thought she sounded lovely. In the end we talked more and more and he said what am I doing, going on these dates when the best bit of it is calling you when I get home to talk to you?

I felt very safe in the relationship because I really felt I knew this man, and that he was a properly "decent" one. Without going into all the details I discovered this was far from the truth and ended it. I believe he really thinks that he is an absolute catch and that he is going to find some stunning and rich younger woman that will fulfil his fantasies of getting his own back on his exW. I guarantee she won't give a f*ck what he gets up to as she has another man (who of course was lined up before she left) and a fair pot of money from the divorce, and a nice new life sorted. He never shuts up about what a great husband he was. Yawn. Crickey, if a woman said similar t to a new partner he would run a mile wouldnt he? In fact to be fair I dont think I have every read on here that a woman thinks her DP was insane to leave her? Bewildered perhaps that she thought the relationship was perfect and it wasnt.

I feel sad that I have now lost a friend but not sorry I had the relationship with him. I've been there and ticked the box of having another relationship after the marriage. It has however completely put me off any thoughts of having another man in my life. It is quite sad. I am happy most of the time but when I hear of friends going on nice weekend breaks etc with their DP's I do have a few wobbles. On the other hand when I hear them moaning justifiably about the same DP's I am bloody grateful to be independent.

Sorry, shouldn't be making the thread all about me.... I don't know, we still like and respect each other, get on, spend time with each other yet have space for our own hobbies etc. I guess it's more of a 'co-parenting with a good friend' relationship at the moment. Maybe I'm kidding myself and am just too scared of the implications of separating.

Dahlen I love that sentiment and it's exactly what I didn't realise I totally want! The guys I've dated in the last couple of years have all had the attitude that I would be grateful someone as wonderful as them (pah!) was willing to take on someone as damaged as me and my fucked up baggage and kids whereas I've been thinking they should be privileged to be trusted and allowed near my children (not that any of them have been allowed to meet my family yet as none have proved themselves worthy yet, frankly) and you explained it perfectly when I'd never realised it before. I am going to keep that in my head from now on. Thank you!

Notnew I would agree with you that a 10 year relationship counts as much as a marriage. But personally, I am wary of dating men who don't have children. Mine are 10 & 13 so still going to be a big part of my life for quite a few years to come. I worry that they won't quite "get" the realities of being a single, working parent; I want someone I can talk to about my kids and not have it be a one way conversation and I definitely don't want any more and my kids don't need another father so he would have to be pretty damn sure he doesn't ever want to be a dad.

As for the whole red flags/are people really happy/do i stay or do i go thing - I think the things I put up with from a 13 year marriage/father of my children were very different from the things I would put up with in a new relationship. My marriage ended because XH had an affair - absolute deal breaker. Period. Done. But before that, he was moody, grumpy, hard to talk to, always (always) right, arrogant, worked too hard, showered too little, emotionally closed off and unsupportive of things that were important to me and yet it never occurred to me to leave. It occurred to me that things weren't as good as they could be & I often hoped we could work through some of these things or do something to make it better. But he was also smart and funny and we had lots of shared interests and a nice house and friends - basically a good life together. So no, it never occurred to me that these were deal-breakers in my marriage (maybe it should have, but it didn't).

But they would definitely be deal-breakers now! Maybe not all of them - I'm not expecting perfection. But I would never again have a partner I couldn't talk to or felt supported by.

I don't know, just my thoughts.

I feel absolutely the same way KidsDontThinkImCool. I hadnt completely thought about it in those terms but is is very true. I certainly think I was very much taken in by the "for better or for worse" idea.

The only thing I wouldnt necessarily agree with is not dating men who dont have kids. I do know some nice married men who dont have kids and they are lovely. They are also lovely with my kids. You never know the reasons.

My friends/family almost all have really good, solid, happy marriages, work well as a team, mutually supportive - the majority have been together since their teens/early 20s (now aged mid 30s and up), which may well be a factor. I do know others who are not happy, or (to my mind) not treated well, however they tend to be the newer ones, where often they have rushed into a relationship rather than be alone after a previous break up, and end up stuck...

Springy - quite right. Which is why I said the bit about dropping preconceptions and actually finding out things about people. I can 'get' non-attraction and absolute deal-breakers but sometimes I do find people wipe out whole sections of the populace too hastily. There are plenty of valid reasons someone might not have kids but to not consider them on that basis alone seems to be harsh. They could be a fabulous uncle and great with kids but didn't have any of his own because his former partner had a medical condition.

Current BF doesn't have DC. His XW kept stalling about it and then they split up. I did have some concerns about that - worrying how he'd react to a relationship with a woman whose life is many things but ultimately dominated by being a parent. However, I'd have never discounted him purely on the basis of being childless. A childless person may be better with children than a crap parent because how good you are with DC depends much more on personality and values than it does on experience IMO, although the latter obviously helps.

I've just broken up with a lovely man where, for whatever reason, we kind of drained each other. As singletons we had very rich lives but we seemed shrivelled versions of ourselves in the end. It's a strange thing to witness and be part of.

I went into the relationship wanting to love, cherish and adore and be loved, cherished and adored in return. Now I want those three plus I need to be heard, included and reassured when I feel vulnerable. I think the right partner will help with our fears and irrational thoughts and not try and bluster them away.

I think one of the main reasons I would not want someone who doesn't have kids is because of my ex's whore. (Already been told off once today for calling her that on here but seeing as no one knows the full story or what this woman has done I do not care. I can not bring myself to use any other word with that evil bitch and will one day take great pleasure in her demise.) Anyway, she doesn't have kids and she has been nothing but damaging to my daughter. She uses language with her that is entirely inappropriate like abusive name calling and reprimands (who the fuck is she to think she can discipline MY child??), she has actually told her she resents her and that DD has nearly split up her relationship with her father because DD gets attention she SHOULD get (wff??) and has told DD that I am no longer her full mummy because she is now here and she is now DD's new Half Mummy and her family are her half grandparents, half aunts etc and this bitch makes decisions about MY daughter, overriding MY decisions, which absolutely is not her place at all! She forces herself on DD constantly forcing her to love her, she is at every school event when she has no business being there, she is on every note & card from her father when again it is not her place, she has slagged me off to and in front of DD, she refuses to allow DD to have any one on one time with her father and demands to be involved in everything all the time, she acts as if she is an equal if not greater part of DD's life and authority in it than me!!! I think if she had children of her own she would know all of these things is absolutely abhorrent behaviour with another woman's child and would respect the parent-child relationship more. She also wouldn't be such a self centered bratty immature whiney little bitch. And the fact my ex has turned into such a bad father himself that he allows this and chooses this whore over his daughter every single day is probably my greatest disappointment in him and that really is saying something given how I feel about him. I would not want a man coming in who thinks he is my children's father with as much authority and importance an my childrens' lives.

I used to rule out men without children. Having now dated (and recently broken up with) one (who I was more compatible with than practically anyone I have ever met) I would never rule them out knowing what I now know.

Although the thought of dating anyone at all (other than him) makes me feel sick at the moment, so it's a bit moot. But I'd urge others not to let a man's childlessness put them off - unless they actively dislike children of course!

Random I think it is incredibly sad that you would potentially tar all childless men with the same brush because of how another woman has behaved. Ouch.

Just because someone doesn't have children of their own doesn't make them automatically awful with kids. I know lots of teachers who don't have kids or their own. I know guys who are great with their nieces and nephews or godchildren.

I'm a step-mum with no children of my own. I have a lovely relationship with my now grown-up DSDs that I treasure because I earned it. I don't think it's relevant to my relationship with them but I never went to parents' evenings or anything like that as it wasn't my place and I always let my DSDs have time alone with their father.

My ex (their father) married the OW who has three grown-up kids of her own. My DSDs truly hate her. She thinks she can tell them how to run their lives, careers and homes and is always interfering in their lives in an overbearing way.

I don't think that having children or not having children has any bearing on whether you have empathy and compassion and can stand in someone else's shoes when viewing the world.

I doubt it OP. I am 29, divorced and all four serious relationships I have had have been horrendous. My last one ended two months ago, he was psychologically abusive and I have been in crisis ever since. Had to start anti depressants, something i never thought I'd do.

Already there are a couple of men interested but I just want nothing to do with any of them. And I can't see that ever changing. Once I am back on my feet I will never ever let a man bring me so low again.

As far as I am concerned most if not all just want sex and are selfish.

I do think there are a shortage of ' decent' single men out there. I have been single rather a long time, and when met with the ' but how on earth are you single' comment from well meaning people, i ask them to tell me of any decent single men in my age range... they usually pull this face... because noone knows any.

I think its also, if you have a failed long term relationship behind you, and are that little bit older, you are aware of what you do and dont want, what sort of behaviours you like and what you cant stand and red flags are not unoticed like they might have been when you were younger.

The majority of men who are left in the dating pool tend to be, as others have said already, wildly inappropriate for dating or any kind of relationship, and i have lost count of the men i have ' seen' but wouldnt go past a few dates with because there would be no way in hell i would introduce them to my child/ family etc...

There does also seem to be some major disparity in what the men think is their league and what they can actually attract, and so many treat you as a throwaway pair of boobs.

The few decent ones that come up im sure, get snapped up quickly. The ones that do want a relationship, get snapped up. The reason why the same faces are on dating sites year after year after year, is because they dont actually want any kind of relationship.

I wouldn't absolutely rule out someone with no DCs but in my (admittedly) limited experience so far, I just feel I'm more likely to be compatible with someone who also has kids.

See, this is why I hate dating though. I always have. I liked it so much better when I had a wide network of friends and acquaintances and you just got to know people in the normal course of school/work/play without having to decide off the bat, based on a limited amount of information, if they might or might not be potential partner material.

Needsmorecake said "I have been single rather a long time, and when met with the ' but how on earth are you single' comment from well meaning people, i ask them to tell me of any decent single men in my age range... they usually pull this hmm face... because noone knows any."

See, as with many threads on MN, it can be just the same for us guys. I get that ALL the time. All of my female friends don't understand why I am single but when I ask them to name me some decent single women they know and could introduce me to, blank faces.

So is it just that there's a higher likelihood of men being twats than women? So the ones who aren't twats tend to be in relationships, but leaves a number of non-twattish women single.

Random I'm not going to tell you off for calling her a whore. By all means, I think this is the perfect forum for calling your ex's twattish new gf names. It's made me feel better on a few occasions myself. And it does sound an awful situation - I want to punch the bitch in the face just reading about it! But it also sounds like you have a whole lot of anger that you should deal with before looking for a new relationship for yourself anyway.

Springy yep - while I always knew "for better or for worse" wouldn't stretch to cover affairs and/or abuse, I kind of thought it included all the usual life is tough, people go through hard times bullshit.