some advice with saying the right things

[mirtzapine]

DW likes flirting when were out, often she'll just disappear and I'll find her chatting with some strange man.

I don't like it and it makes me very uncomfortable.

I obviously phrase it wrong because when I bring it up I either get accused of starting an argument or I want to stop her enjoying herself.

Can anyone give me a few useful phrases where I can express how uncomfortable it makes me in such a way that it can't be construed as an argument starter and to make it clear that I would very much like it to stop.

OP I hope you don't think I was excusing her behaviour. I was just trying to come up with an explanation of WHY she is acting like this.

I think with the debt thing and the flirting thing you are totally in the right. I want to make that abundently clear.

But you do seem to want (especially with the money thing) to put her right. To train her (the military thing?) to be more like you. To think and act like you do. And with the money thing crikey you really did go about that like a project! Was it actually amassive debt like you've made out? It sounds like you felt unconfortable because you didn't have savings which is different from piling up massive debts. Maybe a half way point would be better for you both.

That military, oragnised tack doesn't always work on her. Maybe because it doesn't appeal to her personality. Maybe because it gets her back up. To be brutally honest it would get right on my last one and make me want to scream! You have found out in your work life that this kind of regimented, full-on, blunt-to-the-point-of-rudeness approach doesn't always work. You would certainly not get a great reaction from me if you tried to dictate to me, lecture me about spreadsheets and give me pocket money!

AS for your last sentence about love. Well, that's the crunch question. And tbh if you're not sure if you love each other, the rest is a bit academic. You certainly sound like you have very different personalities

Hello Lweji. Not just women. A lot of people of both sexes feel like they can chhange their partner. But as you say, that person has to want to change. Or to need to change. Otherwise it's like nailing jelly to a tree.

Lweji Does she really lack or she knows you'll pick up the pieces? That was a bit of supposition on my part, I think it's a very long grey line, but probably more that I'll pick up the pieces as I seem to be hard-wired that way.

I am pretty much resigned to the role thrust upon me - guess so. But if she's not prepared to change then she should at the very least accept the consequences of that. If not then she is a lot more selfish than I choose to believe.

As you point out many many women have live with kind of situation for donkeys years, and I guess like them I'm not prepared to destructively change the family.

I guess it takes two to tango, yet most of the time I feel that DW is doing a fandango while (I was nearly about to say Foxtrot Oscar) while I'm tangoing on my tod.

I accept that I cannot nor will not changer her - A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still but this has never been about forcing a change in her, but more about how to phrase it so that I can help her to see from a different perspective. Perhaps what I see now is that I have to change myself and 180 my view point.

I bought that book on How to Talk... maybe once I've read it, I can re-learn my language.

Maybe, just maybe mirtzapine, you are not 100% right. And she is not 100% wrong. Maybe there's three sides to this - yours, hers, and the truth!

If she had come on here saying "I earn all the money in the family but I am not even allowed to buy a coffee on my way to work because my DH has this obsessional idea that we have to have £500 savings by a certain date. I feel like he's turned into a joyless old man since he became a SAHD and he's trying to control me and change me into the wife he thinks I should be to conform with his world view" then the views here might've been a bit different.

I'm sorry if I'm being too blunt but I'm guessing that's the best way with you

But you do seem to want (especially with the money thing) to put her right. no no no no not her, I want to put the money right and live within our means (Blimey - I'm sounding a bit Dickensian there).

Getting organised is my comfort zone, the disorganisation that the throws me completely.

I think the crunch question, will remain unanswered until the monkey is off our back. Then with some breathing space can we come to a decision.

But by putting the money right you're trying to change her. Which may be no bad thing. But you might not have chosen the best way to skin that particular cat.

By saying "NO MONEY till we have this buffer back by 25 February as per my spreadsheet", you have alienated her and pissed her off. So she's likely to rebel.

If you'd said SOME MONEY and we'll have our buffer back one month later, that might've gone down better. It most certainly would've with me. Being TOLD that I am NOT ALLOWED to spend money would have left me seething with resentment because it's not in MY comfort zone. People are allowed to have different comfort zones you know! It sounds like you're the "my way or the highway" type. That doesn't work with grown ups who aren't enlisted in the military Sometimes it's easier to respect someone who is flexible, open, empathetic, rather than some domestic dictator!

You seem to want to get her round to your way of thinking - to understand your world view and seem puzzled that she doesn't get it.

Maybe she isn't entirely wrong. Maybe she can't understand why you're so uptight and anal about things.

Like I say, there must be amiddle ground somewhere!

I hope you're not seeing this as an attack on you. I'm trying to say, instead of 100% trying to change her, maybe you both need to change 50% and meet in the middle

Or. I've squirrelled away £500, to pay off one of DW debts because its about to be sold on to a debt collection agency, I've got to have this money by a certain date otherwise the debt will increase. I've been forced into being a SAHD because we can no longer afford the childcare. I'd like DW not to insist on having a mocha latte super skinny defaf double esspresso, every day because the money can be better used elsewhere and I feel like a miserly old skinflint - trying to sort this out.

There are many different narratives for the story and many different outcomes.

It was if we reach this target amount, then you can 18% of the target amount. The target amount was the carrot from which she could have a bite.

Actually, that might have worked... this morning DW, Can I have couple quid for some lockets my throat feels a bit sore... Me Sure, the cash is just over there, Oh hold on you could use your cash card and take some money out.

DW Er suppose so, but then I'd have to take a tenner out, why not a couple of pound coins.

Wow, I've just realised, we've hit a turning point in mindset...now this is something to celebrate.

Mirtz is it fair to say that you're hoping that out there somewhere are the right words that will get your dw to listen to and understand your point of view?

Obviously I only have the info you give us to go on OP!

I realise you're frustrated. She sounds very frustrating tbh so I can understand that.

But what you're doing at the moment clearly isn't making either of you happy. I'm just trying to say there may be a better way for you both to feel more content and comfortable

Anyway, I have to go and cook the DC's tea. I wish you all the best OP

Aghhhh! OP YOU might need to change your mindset too! That's what I've been tryng to say!!!

"You will have to realise that you cannot change her, OP. And in that I agree with Bitout. You move on, or you accept the role she has thrust on you"

What Lweji said. What you have to decide is whether you are up for the same stuff, ad infintum, or not.

Ignore BitOutofPractice attempt to cast you in the wrong, there is no "middle ground and comfort zones" here, just debt and irresponsibility.

I wish you luck with it Mirtz... and I hope you perhaps have turned a corner. Don't be too intransient... us women hate that. We like flexibility.

Lazy, I have specifically said I don't think he's in the wrong! I have said that repeatedly. I have said several times that she sounds very frustrating

What I have said is that the OP's current approach is not working and making suggestions about why his DW might react like she has. I have tried to be helpful. To put a different perspective on the situation.

And there is always middle ground. I agree that may need to be found once the debt is cleared. But middle ground surely exists or there are going to be two very unhappy people in this marriage - if it continues

we've hit a turning point in mindset...now this is something to celebrate.

Oh that could be a real turning point, how do you feel about that?

I think when you have hit rock bottom and fought back, there is a risk of viewing everything through a negative filter. It's healthy to confront what ails us, but pace yourself. How often are good experiences overlooked or dismissed, because you are fire-fighting and seeing only the bad? Roussette asked a while ago, do you ever laugh together, have fun?

Yes, Donkeys... if it's all drudge, and spreadsheets, and saving money and no funny bits, it can make a person just kick out... like I said upthread being sort of parented

That's what I was trying to get at. If his wife is made to feel like a naughty school girl then she's not going to be open to help / suggestions. I know I wouldn't be - I'm stubborn like that!

I also asked about love - because that seems pretty fundamental here. They certainy don't seem to like each other very much right now!

Its interesting that the focus is on the word change and not education.

DW has had little in the way of education about money. I am not endeavouring to change a personality, moreover trying to encourage a different perspective, like five days of no Chai Lattes equals a decent bottle of wine on a Friday.

I've had to change drastically, to get us all through the money problems, DW hid a lot of them, I've tried to show her that with openness and honesty we can move forward over debt (a problem shared is a problem halved).

Roussette how have you decided its all drudge and spreadsheets??? I loath spreadsheets with a passion, I think they have been the worst tool ever brought into business. This is what actually happens in our household.

I use a modified form of A3 reporting from the Toyota Kaizen Methodology with the Sketchnotes Methodology and value stream mapping. On a Sunday we draw out the up coming weeks in big boxes EG this sunday week 10 will start with cash in hand and cash at bank.

We discuss bills that require paying over the coming two weeks and do a best, worst and intermediate amounts that are taken from our current known cash. We guestimate other types of expenditure and include arsebiters, that may catch us out.

By the end of the discussion and visualisation we end up having a best case scenario and a worst case scenario for the next few weeks. With guestimations of what we can achieve in the way of targets.

When we first started, DW wanted no part in the decision making process over money, she was worn out by the debt stress and the hiding of it. I was passed the ball when it all came to light and took on that stress, but over time I encouraged her to participate by communicating the sitreps of the decisions I had made over the debts and what I had sorted out.

Its was only by being open and transparent that it became easier for her to become more involved, but still she lacks the confidence/knowledge/ability to really manage money in an effective manner. Also the debt issues broke down the trust boundaries on both sides and its been an uphill struggle for both of us.

Yes, in some respects I could be countered with the fact I'm being too methodical and too "managerial" but debt is debt and its not something to be woolly about.

As for the flirting issue, it is a communication gap, I seem not to be able to communicate my feelings in such a manner that its taken on-board, equally DW seems unable to communicate the reasons for it.

Maybe now we have turned a corner and things will get better.

*Roussette how have you decided its all drudge and spreadsheets??? I loath spreadsheets with a passion, I think they have been the worst tool ever brought into business. This is what actually happens in our household.

I use a modified form of A3 reporting from the Toyota Kaizen Methodology with the Sketchnotes Methodology and value stream mapping. On a Sunday we draw out the up coming weeks in big boxes EG this sunday week 10 will start with cash in hand and cash at bank.*

Mirtza... I was using a figure of speech with regard to spreadsheets and whatever Toyota Kaizen Methodology sketchnotes and value stream mapping are, it sounds the same if not worse to me!

I'm only trying to help by saying it just sounds so regimented and I know I would totally switch off if I had to look at my finances in this way and maybe that is what is happening to your DW, she is switching off.

Its interesting to note that a significant number of people suffer from Math Anxiety, and when you present them with column after column of numbers, they have difficulties in the comprehension of what those numbers mean.

The method I've described is a better way of reducing Math Anxiety. Imagine if you will, a large piece of paper, on it you draw a few boxes that represent blocks of time. Week Month how ever you want to represent units of time. It can be as large or a small as you want it to be, you could for example draw the boxes to represent every 17 days, because your using a particular religious calender and thats when the festivals occure.

In each of those boxes, using exclamation marks, question marks, asterix, nice and big and bold and a bit sketchy, you represent key points, Sky bill for example a quick sketch of the sky logo with the price in the week it needs to be paid.

At the beginning and end of each block you draw a nice big sketchy number that represents the money you expect at the beginning and end of the week.

Carry on doing things like that until you have drawn the Big Picture of the finances.

While we are both doing it we chat about things that need paying for, something I forgot, something she forgot. Whoopse, dd1 has a birthday party to go to then, we've got to buy a present.

It helps in communication, since we've been doing it this way DW is a lot less "fearful" of the numbers and when things have to be paid.

A spreadsheet is a much more regimented way of trying to show someone who has Math Anxiety where the money is...