some advice with saying the right things

[mirtzapine]

DW likes flirting when were out, often she'll just disappear and I'll find her chatting with some strange man.

I don't like it and it makes me very uncomfortable.

I obviously phrase it wrong because when I bring it up I either get accused of starting an argument or I want to stop her enjoying herself.

Can anyone give me a few useful phrases where I can express how uncomfortable it makes me in such a way that it can't be construed as an argument starter and to make it clear that I would very much like it to stop.

Despite my jokey post ooop thread, I am wondering mirtzapine whether you show enough warmth and emotion to your wife. Your money thread and this one reads like a political manifesto.

Sit your wife down, hold her hands, tell her how much you love her and talk from the heart.

Never been fired ever.

In the City: Trading and Broking software platforms.

The behaviour is pretty much endemic. I was once called up to the Trading floor one Friday afternoon, where a Director (after an obviously expansive but not good lunch) Screamed, shouted, called me every swearword possible in front of all the traders, who he encouraged to join in.

I've subsequently quit that line of work and am now a SAHD. Sadly, my working life has been in very "Boys Own" environments.Which is in part why I raised my original question, is that as a SAHD, cajoling, prevarication and deflection seem to be the norm.

Your last post amuses me.

Being very successful in professional & personal life is tricky and not for the faint hearted.

I'm afraid - no - you can't shout at your charges to get results as a sahd. You also don't have as much authority or control as you may be used to.

So what are you going to do about it?

Are you able to adapt your skills?
Don't be ashamed if you aren't, many can't.

Who a man is (or a woman ) isn't really visible in times of happiness.
You see the real person when they are out of their comfort zone.

Minimising the life's of sah parents as meek is wrong.

Maybe you're just not man enough to handle it.

Roussett good point well made. Warm and Emotional, I probably did once, I guess, which is why she said yes to marring me. I'd say more of a directive than a political manifesto - but that's just as bad.

Again, this is why I'm using mumsnet as its a great help in adjusting and question my world view

Well mirtzapine, I think you need to go back to that time.. when you proposed to her. Get rid of directives, facts and figures and all that tosh. Speak to her like you must lose her forever, tell her how proud you are of her and her career, tell her what she means to you, ask how she would like you to get your point across, tell her you've been doing it wrong up till now and you will do anything to make it right. Take her out for a meal and laugh together - you need to reset everything I think.

speak to her like you might* lose her forever. Can't type

Guess what, I can read people like that too

Uptheanty I've always had the utmost respect for SAH parents, its a tough gig. Frankly, with hindsight, I don't think I've ever done anything this demanding.

In part I now understand why social workers or childcare professionals talk in what I would consider a woolly way, at times I feel like I'm talking to the children in a patronising way (they are 8 & 5).

I did find you last sentence slightly provocative, maybe it was intended to challenge. I don't think manliness (in the classic sense) plays much of a part in looking after the sprogs.

It was intended to be provocative - but in a good way

I think you're up to the challenge

Roussette Another part of this is the planning of a date night as we have the sprogs staying at a "sleep-over" party till 10pm. From when we drop them off at 6pm we're going to go out.

Last time we went out (october last year) I didn't see DW until it was time to leave the bar and she was shitfaced drunk.

I would like to inform her in advance, that if we have a repetition of last time, then this has become a serious waste of my efforts. Warmth and Affection should be a bit of a two way thing

Uptheanty thankyou that was kind

OK mirtzapine as long as you don't say... I would like to inform you in advance, that if we have a repetition of last time, then this has become a serious waste of my efforts

Don't go to a bar where you know people. You tell her it's a surprise where you are going and take her to a quiet but nice restaurant where you can perhaps talk

I would like to inform you in advance, that if we have a repetition of last time, then this has become a serious waste of my efforts

I am super-duper, absolutely and utterly totally aware that I cannot phrase it like that at all.

I need a better way to say it, that has strength and emphasis, which leaves someone in no doubt as to how I feel, without being intimidating and with clarity, so that there can be no alternative interpretation.

Now that's a skill I lack.

I haven't read the whole thread, OP, so apologies if I've missed a lot of further detail.

Just focussing on your first post, & the issues of how to phrase things, have you used the word that you use here - "uncomfortable" to explain to your wife how you feel?

"I feel uncomfortable when you flirt with other men / leave me in the bar / get so drunk every time we go out. I'd like you to stop behaving like that, or I'm not prepared to go to bars with you".

Or: "I'd like to go to a restaurant instead of a bar, because I want us to spend some time together. I don't like being left by myself in a bar".

"I'm not prepared to go to a bar with you unless you're going to stay & talk to me, not go off chatting to other men".

"I find it embarrassing & hurtful when I'm left on my own in a bar & you're chatting to some strange bloke".

"I don't want all my evenings out to end with having to take care of you because you're drunk & incapable. This needs to stop".

I don't think any of these types of statement are aggressive. They're stating your feelings & position clearly, & marking out some boundaries. Of course, tone of voice & manner are pretty important, too (stating the obvious, I know) - so I'm assuming you'd be making these statements clearly & calmly, not shouting in your wife's face.

If your wife accuses you of starting an argument when all you've done is tell her how you feel, or stated what you're prepared to put up with, I guess you'd have to clarify & say something along the lines of: "I'm telling you how I feel; & there are some things in the way you behave when we're out that make me really uncomfortable / unhappy. I know I can't control what you do, but I'm not prepared to sit around in a bar while you do x".

If my husband behaved like this when we were out, the bottom line is that I'd stop going out with him. If his need to flirt with other women / get drunk whenever we went out was a higher priority for him than spending time with me, I think I'd be reevaluating our relationship. And I'd feel a bit manipulated if he accused me of being argumentative IF I really just had stated my feelings clearly & assertively.

Hi Mirt.

How about firstly telling your DW how you love her, tell her how you enjoy socialising with her and then say how your evening loses a little of its shine when she excludes you from her company.

I totally agree with a pp who suggests a restaurant. Plan it like a military op. Consider your objective ( romantic socialising with dw, dw not getting shitfaced) consider any obstacles (other men, alcohol) plan a strategy that avoids pitfalls yet meets the target. How about a restaurant where you bring your own alcohol? You can avoid others and limit alcohol. Or a picnic (maybe later in the year). Cinema and theatre might not be romantic (but would work for me)

For what it's worth I think you sound pragmatic, loyal and loving.

Gossipyfishwife thanks - I like the BYO restaurant idea, that should keep the sauce consumption down (also no comments from the DDs' like "why is mummy falling over all the time).

LoonvanBoon Ahhh! Tone of Voice - I've got a voice like feedback through a foghorn passed back through a Spinal Tap amp. I've seen mum's at the school gate nearly wet themselves when I shout "Girls! Daddy's here, Eyes On - To Me Now." when I try to get there attention in the playground... Not good eh! I just realised that my words aren't really suitable either.

I think Mirtzy that the more you push with your 'army ways' the more you will push her away. What is the age difference between you both?

I see plenty of warmth and emotion. Trust and honesty are vital ingredients for a marriage, if your 'D'W is intent on pushing your buttons on the rare occasion you go out together have you ever had cause to worry what she gets up to sober or not when you are apart in the daytime?

Reading further, I'm not sure what money problems you're referring to but if she bears you resentment for reining her spending in, is it possible she is not intent on cheating but flirting very obviously to 'get even'? It sounds ridiculous but when spouses ostentatiously drink and flirt it's sometimes to 'punish' a partner. Less of a Date Night, more of a suppressed Hate Night. Whoever is the SAHP, any precious child-free time should be just that, not managing a 30? 40?+ child who can't or won't handle their drink.

Roussette to answer your question 11 years.

Also I was brought up by my maternal Grandparents where both Army, Grandmother was a Nursing Officer in Queen Alexandra's Royal Army Nursing Corps and Grandfather was a Theater Nurse/Sargent RAMC. So my childhood was very, very ordered and disciplined and I was prep-ed to follow the family military tradition.

So I guess during stressful periods, like the ones we've had recently, I fall back into my comfort zone, which is to ensure that there is order (of a sort)

DonkeysDontRideBicycles your insights are very interesting. Trust is very fragile in our household, DW has a drink problem (a recognised one where she is getting a sort of treatment), She can't manage money and a couple of years ago had an EA with a colleague. I resent the fact that she cannot manage herself especially when there are four lives at stake. She resents the fact that she can't be herself. She says that with enough of a frequency for it to be tedious ( and it does not enter her head that at times I feel the same). Unfortunately, she is a Kidult and her parents were/are also kidults, yet DW finds their behaviour an embarrassment. The FIL and MIL think they are sexy beasts, and I often have a nagging feeling that they are closet swingers or they've had a knock on the head and are living in LaLaLand.

I imagine the age difference is you being 11 years older. I just think you have to be careful not to be playing a parental role as opposed to a husband role which could be happening given your age gap and your upbringing. This is not a criticism, we all fall back into our comfort zones when under stress as that is how we have been shaped during the years of growing up. You know no different.

Your post to Donkeys is very telling - your wife wants to be young and daft, you want her to shape up and be an adult, mother and wife. You just have to be careful you aren't 'managing' her and acting like the sensible one or the parent. If you go down that route she will start hiding things from you and deceiving you (as a wayward teen with a parent would do). Do you ever laugh together.... I mean really laugh? Are you on the same wavelength, do you have fun together whereby you feel like absolute equals... as parents, as husband/wife, as partners in crime... whatever?

Blimey. It sounds that you're somewhat overwhelmed - problems upon problems. Is there a lot of resentment on the part of you wife, that she works, yet is kept on an ultra tight rein when it comes to money? Please don't think I'm reproaching you for this - she sounds totally irresponsible with cash and you have really no choice, but maybe the flirting is a sort of payback, revenge if you like. I am impressed with your term 'kidult' - new one for me but I know exactly what you mean - I was once married to one and even now, in his eighties, he still flirts and make wildly inappropriate comments to women.

Be honest - how do you see yourself in five ... ten years? Still married? Wife having overcome her alcohol problems? Solvent? I actually feel sorry that you are obviously struggling on so many fronts.

'I've also noticed that trying to stress something as vital, essential or an urgent need in a strong tone is considered to be aggressive.'

that's because if someone truly respects you and what you say, you could whisper it at them and they'll pay attention. You should definitely be able to pass on the information that something is vital, essential or urgent in a normal volume and tone and have the other person get the message. if you have to shout or use a 'strong tone' then it's because you aren't getting their respect, and having used that approach, have probably reduced their respect for you.

If someone at work tells me something in a strong tone unnecessarily, I think - I'm not in trouble, so why are you talking to me like that? Why are you telling me off before I've done anything wrong? You are doing it because you think you have to bully me into doing it. That is aggressive. I don't respect or respond to bully's demands.

Civvy life isn't the army. You don't get to bark orders at people and have them jump to it (even your children, although don't get me wrong, I'm a strict parent). But why start at that level instead of speaking nicely to people at first? Then you've got your stronger 'guns' to pull out if they are needed. If you go storming in at Level 10, where can you go if they ignore you?

Swearing is not generally accepted in the workplace or encounters with others unless it is part of the wider culture (as it has been for you, and has been for me in the past). I used to work somewhere where swearing was perfectly normal. But only once. It a huge mistake to learn that as your only way of relating strongly to your co workers. Sarcasm doesn't go down well, either (the lawyer comment). I sympathise to some extent as I'm also quite blunt, and all the fiddly-faddling around verbally doesn't come naturally to me either, but I've learned to do it. And it works better.

on your wife flirting - how are you approaching her about this? It could be that it does seem very 'let's have a row about it' to her, or she could just be making excuses to avoid the issue. I know when my ex had a guilty conscience about anything I needed to ask him, he'd immediately fly off the handle and make it seem like I was being unreasonable to even ask him. which of course, made him look guiltier than ever, as it's not the reaction of someone with a clear conscience.

Are you concentrating on what you want and telling her what to do? This could bring out her stubborn side. Focus on your feelings instead. don't tell her not to do this or that. Open up your heart and let her know - I feel really hurt and abandoned when you leave me and go off to talk to other people when we are out. I'd love to really spend the evening talking with you. (don't call it flirting, it'll get her defences up. She'll say it isn't flirting and that's the end of your point). And leave it at that. See what happens.

(Flirty pensioners. Urg. I go to some social events at a golf club with family. There is one notorious 80+ year old. They all seem very fond of her, but she is seen as quite a joke by everyone. She isn't aware that a lot of the time they are laughing at her or laughing from embarrassment, rather than laughing with her. Last time she got on a table and dropped her trousers, and wriggled around. When she had everyone's attention she said, oh well thank goodness I've got my knickers on. she turned up to something in full on stockings/suspenders/basque once. It's a need to reject getting older/still want to have confirmation that I'm 'sexy'. Most of us don't need public confirmation of that. Your wife flirts because she wants public confirmation of that.

Have you tried flirting with her, like made, when you are out? It could be she needs that validation.

oldgrandmama Decorum, what the hell has happened to it, but given my swearyness - I'm not the first to cast stones on that one. I believe there is a lot of resentment in my wife but I don't understand why, most of our "pickles" are of her own making by being generally thoughtless and not thinking about consequences of actions.

Roussette again keen insights thank you.

kentishgirl The though that I could have been (and probably was) considered to be a bully, horrifies me. That was never my intention, yet seeing it in the light you cast on it is food for though indeed.

You know that being thoughtless and not thinking about consequences of actions may actually mean that she doesn't give a damn about you or the consequences for you.

As an aside hope you are looking after yourself, if your nn refers to anti-depressants then any recent upsurge in stresses might require a review of medication, if your mood is affected.