some advice with saying the right things

[mirtzapine]

DW likes flirting when were out, often she'll just disappear and I'll find her chatting with some strange man.

I don't like it and it makes me very uncomfortable.

I obviously phrase it wrong because when I bring it up I either get accused of starting an argument or I want to stop her enjoying herself.

Can anyone give me a few useful phrases where I can express how uncomfortable it makes me in such a way that it can't be construed as an argument starter and to make it clear that I would very much like it to stop.

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Don't worry I am keenly aware of my usage of anti-depressants, and currently, with my GP assistance we are reducing my dosages. Mirtazapine wasn't the only one I've been taking, Diazepam, Venflaxo... something or other. I've now reduced to 15/30mg mirtazapine morning evening and diazepam 5mg as required if things get too much.

Interestingly, I've lost a shitload of weight whilst on anti-depressants, when I was initially diagnosed, I had a long discussion with my GP about the environmental and chemical factors in depression, so I set about with gusto, to sort out my environment as well as use the chemical.

Frankly, yesterday was an odd day for me, DW had got shitfaced drunk Thursday night and took Friday off with (I love this term - it comes from her parents and is says a lot) a morning cold. I spent most of yesterday playing Minecraft with the DDs' as they want to learn how to play it - it's surprisingly enjoyable.

Also one of DW's debtbombs, went off which I successfully defused and disarmed, made safe and disposed of in a controlled manner.

Also Lweji your comment, caused me to do a lot of navel gazing as well, which I've decided to put on the backburner, until I'm in a better place to deal with it.

kentishgirl "Am I concentrating on what I want and telling her what to do?" Well, difficult question to answer, as there are a number of wants running in parallel. The wants of the family, the wants of the DDs' my wants, her wants. Frankly none of these are actually in alignment.

I'm endeavouring to subsume my "wants" in order to put Family and DDs' first, DW's on the other hand I'm not sure of. Perhaps these two separate scenarios will help explain.

Since I've become unwaged, I've taken none of DW's earnings for myself (no books, mags, razor blades etc). On the other hand DW booked a spa weekend at the beginning of the year for next week.

Now many of you will go - "She earned the money, she deserves it." Yet, she put into play a number of debts that we are still paying off (which is why Lweji comment about thoughtlessness sort of prodded me in the wrong places) and I've had to do a bit of a knife edge balancing act to ensure that necessities get paid for. When I asked her how we could pay for it, her response was, "we can miss the rent for a little bit" Doh!

So as you can see there is a significant mis-alignment in our ways of thinking.

You are worried about her flirting, drinking and attitude towards money. I don't know how you and she dealt with the aftermath of her EA with a colleague but I suspect once you couldn't trust your DW, on more than one level, a crucial part of your marriage withered.

I know you were talking about being a SAHD when you mentioned using cajoling, prevarication and deflection but some of that has crept into your role as husband, too. And that is part of your mis-alignment in your ways of thinking as a couple.

Incidentally, as far as you know, she isn't a MNer, is she...?

To answer your questions in reverse order.

Yes DW is a MNer... she pointed me in the direction of this site when I need a few questions answered about DDs' and parenting, I don't actually know her UID, so this isn't some kind of stealth way to get at her. It is a genuine use of a common consensus from a group of people who may have alternative viewpoints, which will aid me in coming to a decision or conclusion regarding an issue (so far the status-quo remains, as my grandfather used to say "when in doubt do nowt", though in retrospect that may not be sage advice).

The cajoling, prevarication and deflection are all parts of trying to get to a negotiated resolution without the heat being turned up and it escalating to a place, I for one, do not particularly want to go to.

Yes, my "trust" part broke down as part of the aftermath of the EA, is was then further eroded by the escalation of her drinking and pretty much shattered as the depth of her debt mismanagement came to light.

Lets put it in these terms. You know that dumb-ass game that you get to play in Team Building exercises. You fall backwards with the trust expectation that the person behind you will catch you, I would not now want DW behind me as I have no faith that she would endeavour to, or be able to catch me. I have no trust that she has my "back" in any situation.

If the situation was reversed then it would be my sense of duty and obligation to ensure that she wouldn't fall and hurt herself. Yet sadly, now I realise that there is a small part of me that would relish seeing her fall flat on her arse - with a sense of serves you right. But that kind of pettiness reduces me as a human being.

As i write this, what I realise is that our moral-compasses aren't pointing to the same magnetic north. Which one of us has the big chunk of Iron Ore in our way, causing the needle to point in the wrong direction - I don't know.

When you mentioned the Trust game, my first thought was, maybe you could stage a version of Truth or Dare. Well, less of the Dare bit. You try and raise what you've said here, to your wife; by letter or face to face. And unpick what went wrong at least two/three years' ago, ie pre her EA.

From what you said to Lweji last week regarding put it on the back-burner, I appreciate you want to feel up to that kind of confrontation and level of honesty. But it might be that your DW is seeking a reaction from you now and will force your hand before that day comes.

I suppose I've answered what Lweji posed, if I wouldn't trust her to "catch" me in the falling game, then, it shows I already know that she is "thoughtless" vis-a-vis myself.

We have been through a process of unravelling where the fuck-ups were made in the last few years. it boils down to an ad-mix of selfishness, hubris, greed, short-sightedness and plain old juvenile behaviour.

Frankly, I am shocked that a 37 yo Mother of two could have behaved like that... the behaviour is very akin to that of a number of "mates" of mine who had to have their mid-life crises. As well as bearing a resemblance to a number of threads here, where MNers have to support and deal with manchildren.

Is it a symptom of the times we are living in? DW's parents are a pair of kidults, they've re-mortgaged and re-mortgaged to the hilt so they can go to Burj Al-Arab or some resort in Jamaica twice a year. They let their own grandchildren down with hollow promises of EuroDisney, so they could get a Merc 500SL soft-top.

What I realise now is that our co-dependency ends. She's the breadwinner now, so she'll have to play her part in providing for the family. As to the rest of it, well, we'll see.

37 sounds young to have a mid-life crisis. The only time I felt real sympathy for someone in the grip of a MLC was when I heard that behaviour erupted following a severe illness. He exhibited all sorts of what I'd call selfish, unthinking behaviour partly as a reaction to a crisis, "Hey I'm alive!" He had taken a look at his life and felt there had to be more to it than this. Unfortunately he went so far in the direction of "living life on his terms" the danger was he risked losing his loved ones who'd supported him. I am glad to say the pendulum swung the other way and he went back to his normal self.

You mention your in-laws a lot, their behaviour might not have given DW an ideal template for adult life, nonetheless they may have been an unfailing source of love and support, even if they haven't gained your respect.

Your posts make for very sad reading Mirtz.

You come across as a very straight, moral guy who is perhaps a bit clumsy with words (although witty with it) perhaps a bit judgemental and perfectionist (?) who's married a total womanchild. You are very quick to admit your faults, and that's admirable, but you seem to care very little about yourself. You have put up with far too much IMO - cheating, debts, alcoholism, disrespect, resentment, criticism, lack of personal money, on top of illness.

You aren't a monster. You're not perfect but you do deserve kindness and warmth and these seem totally lacking in your relationship. I don't think the problem is your lack of a way with words, I think it's that your wife is an immature bitch and you're so busy trying to tidy up her shit that you're running yourself into the ground.

Time to get out I think.

Back to work for you mitz. DW will only respect you when you are earning. Employ childminders,

CailinDana but you seem to care very little about yourself I'm a little unsure as to what that actually means - don't get me wrong here, I'm not levelling a criticism here. Let me explain, I care greatly about myself, I spend time reflecting on my emotional and instinctual reactions and behaviours, in effect my Yetzer hara can get the better of me. But, and this is what I believe may be the key to getting through all of these problems.

If I succumb to a base selfish reactions, then I can only make a bad situation much much worse. In some ways I look at it from a gestalt perspective, the whole (family) is greater than the sum of the parts (Each of us who make up our family).

As for being immature and tidying up her shit, well some one has to do that for the DDs' sake, otherwise they would would be in a right old pickle with no-one to "be there" for them. They could really do with a granny, except FIL & MIL have lost interest as they are past the dressing up stage.

DonkeysDontRideBicycles I do mention FIL & MIL a fair amount, they are responsible for DWs primary & secondary socialisation and laid the foundations for her tertiary socialisation patterns (Fuck me eh! I bet my sociology A level teacher would never believe I can still remember that stuff 30+ years from sitting my A level). From what I can gather from meeting them they are self-centred, selfish greedy bastards and if they treated DW the same way as a child as they have done in her adult life then they were a failing source of love and support.

Origamiboat I've only been un-waged for five weeks now, prior to that my wages were mostly spent on wrap-around childcare and fire-fighting DW's Improvised Devices of Debt. I've decided to take time out of the ork place to cut some costs and better manage the family finances. There is also a second issue regarding work. I wrote my first piece of software nearly 35 years ago now. I think I need to consider a career doing something different.

G-d this stuff is good cathartic shit... Ta Mumsnet you're all starts.

Oh just to clarify I started writing software at the age of 13, and I got kicked out of my A level computer science class for being too clever by half.

I'm going to add one more thing to this, which may aid in building a bigger picture.

Five years ago, I was working for a very wealthy brokerage, not being a broker just "support" staff, I was given an after tax bonus of £10k. At the time DW was a SAHM and she'd expressed a desire to get an MA. So I gave her the 10k, that was in March of that year, by October when she was going to start her MA, I discovered she'd spent nearly all of it. She then asked FIL for a 5k loan so she could still do the course.

Muggins here didn't find out until FIL asked me directly for the cash back so he could take MIL on the Burg Al-Arab holiday.

That's the reason I harp on about FIL and MIL's ridiculous bi/tri annual holidays... cos I got directly burnt.

To my mind, mirtz, I think you are heading towards crunch time. It can't go on like this can it? Your DW has to start growing up and becoming a bit more sensible (without losing the fun loving aspect of herself... is she the ying to your yang?)

Your DW must have some strengths though because she holds down a good job doesn't she... does she resent you being at home whilst she is the main breadwinner hence her behaviour?

Have just read origamiboat's suggestion of a CM, now realise have "met" you on MN before. Hope the redecoration wasn't too costly.

Maybe after DW returns from the spa the two of you can have a heart to heart.

Okay - I have read all of this (pretty much). I started out sympathetic, then got very cross with you (I would be one of those people who you would reduce to tears with your Army ways, sorry) but I have come around to more sympathy.

First I woul;d suggest reading something like How to talk, it is aimed at talking to your kids but I know lots of women who use some of it to talk to their husbands, so why not use the "I" language to talk to your wife?

Second I would go and get some counselling. I know its not very Army, but you have a lot of issues to work through, and talking to someone else can really help.

Then maybe later you could both do with joint counselling.

Also I would suggest you think about her drinking - how bad is it really? Does she have an issue?

Finally please try to talk to people with more respect. Sometimes asking kindly or offering understanding gets better results. The Army way is not the only way that works.

What I mean when I say you don't care about yourself is more that you don't care for yourself. You're more than a collection of faults and duties. You're not well. Who looks out for you? Who asks you how you are?

Roussette Yes she is the yin to my yang and she does hold down a good job, but equally she has lost a couple of good jobs because of the drinking. Which leads me on to mummytime. DW does finally seem to have got a grip on her drinking, it is becoming less of an issue - which is good (and I'm playing my part in that by lessening my talking about it). Thank you for the book advice, I will take a look at it. Reducing people to tears has never been an intention (unlike some nasty sods I've met who go out of their way to be bitchy for no reason), its been an unfortunate side effect of engaging mouth without brain.
DonkeysDontRideBicycles Ah! Yes, I look back at that event and think OMG. Sorted out and put behind us, with the caveate of Never Again, well until the next time when I think we are in a better place to see early and d eal with.
CailinDana - understand what you are saying, in some respects I am in a, sort of, self imposed isolation. I have elected not to indulge in my mates, as most (thinking about it, all) of them are heavy drinkers, single or absentee fathers, so they are not the kind of group who give the right kind of advice or the kind f advice that would make most of you blow a big fuse.

You are incredibly hard on yourself Mirtz. Put down the stick and stop beating yourself.

Who looks out for you?

CailinDana ummmm! I'm not purposely avoiding an answer, cos I think I would have to answer no-one, which feels really unpleasant. Politically, I feel I should say DW, but she's been a bit of a chocolate teapot over the last couple of years.

I know I need to get out and make some friends, but...

You don't need to get out and make friends! Put down that stick! Your wife needs to be a proper partner to you or leave and let you find someone who will be.

It seems that you are reluctant to say that she should take care of you, but both should take care of each other.
She is behaving like a spoilt child, essentially.
You don't need an extra child at home. You need an adult.

CailinDana & Lweji Ingrained stereotypes from upbringing and early adulthood perhaps, a reluctance on my part at this moment to say that I need some TLC after the stresses of sorting some of our domestic issues, the knowledge that DW lacks some of the mechanisms needed to understand. An inability on my part to find adequate support network outside of my immediate environment.

And a break from trying to shore-up a failing family.

I think all of those things are stopping me...

Stopping you from doing what?

Hello OP. Gosh.

I agree that your wife going off flirting is not a great and I can imagine you don't like it - nor would I.

But crikey what comes across here is that you see your wife (like everything else in your life) as a project. Something to manage. And mould. And change to be more like you would do it / like you.

I'm not saying that in a relationship there shouldn't be compromise, growth, modification etc but crikey you sound like, with enough drilling, and a sufficiently detailed plan, you might be able to make your wife into the one you could like

If I were your wife, OP, I would be rebelling like mad. I would see you as a uptight, stick-in-the-mud nag. I'm not saying you are, but if you were constantly trying to tell me what to do, order me even, then I would instinctively dig my heels in.

Do you actually love your wife? Because that doesn't come across at all if you do.

Sorry OP, I'm not sure that was much help but it might help explain why your DW acts like she does...

the knowledge that DW lacks some of the mechanisms needed to understand.

I'm interested in this. Does she really lack or she knows you'll pick up the pieces?

Bitout, many women have similar feelings to Mirtazepine. They think they can hold the family together, they think they can change their OHs. They can't. Because their partners don't want to.
You will have to realise that you cannot change her, OP. And in that I agree with Bitout.
You move on, or you accept the role she has thrust on you.

BitOutOfPractice so why don't I act like that?

I have to manage the problems that get dumped on us, but I don't think at any point I've tried to mould her into something else, a bit more responsibility on her part would be nice. or more to the point shoulder some of the burden of responsibility.

So given that she's created some significant debt problems and flirting on the few occasions were out. Why is that I don't rebel against her behaviours? And do the same?

So lets see if I have this picture right, you would say run up a significant debt, then pass it off to your partner to sort out and pay off, during that period of debt repayment whilst your partner was distinctly short of money, you would rebel against that, dig your heels in. Why? What do you stand to gain from that?

I've said previously that I'm not going to get involved in a tit-for-tat situation... because that really is a road to hell or a start of a really bad bitter divorce.

I can't answer the love question, and she can't either