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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

1000 replies

DontstepontheMomeRaths · 11/02/2014 17:30

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's February 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

OP posts:
Hissy · 28/03/2014 22:29

:)

I'm inviting ChippingIN, dunno if you know her? We used to be childhood neighbours believe it or not! 30yrs ago! The power of MN!

It will cheer me up, and help me forget about me finding out that the guy i've been mercilessly flirting with for weeks/months is on the opposite side of 30 to the one i'm on!

Hey ho.. :D

Meerka · 28/03/2014 22:49

Seen her post - how lovely to find her again!

ahhhh enjoy the flirting. My husband was, ahem, the younger side of 30 too when we met Blush

YouPutYourRightArmIn · 29/03/2014 11:34

Thank you all - feeling less wobbly today.

I had to call her Atilla to arrange giving something back to her that I'd borrowed. I suspect you're right about the centre of attention thing. I can only think that she thinks our day out tomorrow includes MIL but excludes her. Or that she was upset with someone/something else (but she's not usually backwards in telling me about such things) or that she genuinely wasn't grumpy at all. Either way, as hissy says I've asked if she was ok so there's not much else I can do.

I've got her a couple of small but thoughtful gifts for tomorrow so we shall see how it all pans out. I'm so glad DH is coming. I know you guys think I shouldn't be bothering but at the moment, on the surface at least, things are fine. So I'm happy to go with that. I don't want to make her feel shitty, which is what blowing her out on MD would do.

Talking to my friends was good. One has a difficulty relationship with her DM and her MIL so can empathise well. She thinks I would benefit from counselling. The other friend has a marvellous mum so I think finds it really hard to get her head around what I'm saying. She says she doesn't get the need for the little digs etc but I don't think she can really grasp the whole concept because its so alien to her.

selendra I know what you mean about identity. I'm currently questioning whether I am like I am because of me or because of DM. I've recently (thanks to MN) also realised I am a people pleaser to an extent and have no confidence in my own opinions or decision-making abilities. Again no idea if this is just me or if its due to my relationship with DM.

I have a DD and to be honest, all this stuff has really come to the surface for me since she was born so I imagine I would've been hesitant, like you, to feel confident on having children if I was more aware if all this beforehand. As it is, dd is 2yo and wonderful. I'm very scared if damaging her but already know I feel somewhat different to how my DM is. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if DM is actually trying to compensate for the shitty relationship she had with her DM. Problem is, she's doing it in a way that matters to her, not in a way that really matters to me it the health of our relationship. Ie - by projecting this image of how close we are in public makes her feel like she is doing it better than her DM did, whether we are in fact close or not. With my dd I just 'am'. I don't do things because I feel it's the antidote to what my DM did, I do them because that's what feels right for dd at that time. Not sure any of that makes sense but I guess I'm saying that my feelings/behaviour towards dd are about her, not about me. That's not an active decision, it's just kind if how it's happened, which I hope in turn means I'm not setting myself up to repeat history.

Anyway, massively waffling now. Hope you can all find some love and fun in tomorrow.

GoodtoBetter · 29/03/2014 12:07

YouPut masses of what you say resonated with me. Will post later...on phone at soft play atm. Wink

AttilaTheMeerkat · 29/03/2014 12:12

Hi YouPutYourRightHandIn,

I would not personally be giving her any gifts but if doing that makes things easier for you (in the short term at least) then I will not demur. I'd be giving her a mirror!. Do not be at all surprised if any gift you are given is a) you receive nothing at all or b) crap. Narcissists are terrible gift givers as well as being deplorable as parents and grandparents.

I would agree with your friend; I think counselling for you is a must with the provisos that you find a counsellor that a) fits in with your approach and b) has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. Please try and arrange something asap, BACP are good and do read "Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina W Brown.

Re this comment:-

" I'm very scared if damaging her but already know I feel somewhat different to how my DM is. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if DM is actually trying to compensate for the shitty relationship she had with her DM. Problem is, she's doing it in a way that matters to her, not in a way that really matters to me it the health of our relationship. Ie - by projecting this image of how close we are in public makes her feel like she is doing it better than her DM did, whether we are in fact close or not".

No re trying to compensate, not a bit of it!!. Your mother is basically replicating the dysfunctional relationship she herself had with her own mother; that's all she knew and ever knows. Your mother being a narcissist is basically doing this in a way that makes her look good and saintly even though you know to the contrary. Its all image and artifice to these people. The narcissist discovers their identity in power and control, they equate love with power and control.

Control and power = the narcissist's image
Control and power = love
Narcissists love their image

Narcs do not love you. They love the way you preserve their narcissistic image.

I personally think you are like the way you are because of your mother; she has moulded you to be this way. You likely do not know which way is really up and are still seeking her approval even now. The birth of the first child often brings up such feelings to the surface because you know that you would never treat your child in the ways that you were treated as a child. You have qualities your mother does not have - empathy and insight. All your mother cares about is her and her alone; everyone else is but a bit part player in her own universe.

Never forget that if she is too difficult/toxic crap for you to deal with she is the same for your both vulnerable and defenceless child. her behaviour with the shoes was typical narcissistic behaviour as well.

YouPutYourRightArmIn · 29/03/2014 12:15

I feel your pain gtb - off to a kids party in a mo. At least there will be cake I guess!!

AttilaTheMeerkat · 29/03/2014 12:17

"I don't want to make her feel shitty, which is what blowing her out on MD would do".

She has never thought twice though about making you feel bad.

Sadly others unwittingly give the narcs power over to them to the degree that they lack true self esteem. They think the narcissist will somehow endow them with what appears to be a limitless supply of self esteem. This never happens. Narcs take whatever others have to offer them to gratify their egos and leave them high and dry.

Cleorapter · 29/03/2014 17:59

So I've just had a long, rambling text from my mother telling me how much of an awful person I am. Fun. I've ignored and deleted it. Right thing to do?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 29/03/2014 18:02

Absolutely!. Also consider blocking her number from your phone.

Hissy · 29/03/2014 18:03

Cleo, what do YOU think our answers to you would be?

:)

ignore and delete, she is only doing this to RUIN your weekend/MD. She's not worth the price of a return text. even if your contract is unlimited

you didn't get that text, someone else did. someone else who gives a shit! :)

Cleorapter · 29/03/2014 18:10

She used my dad's phone to text, I've already blocked her number. I think she knows that, hence why she's used my dad's phone.

Trying hard not to let the FOG get to me Hmm

I feel sick to my stomach though, I wish I didn't care but I do...

Cleorapter · 29/03/2014 18:25

It's funny, all the things she wrote, was her exact character. Though she was saying the things to me. That I'm damaging my children, I'm self obsessed, think the world revolves around me, I treat my family awfully and think I'm better than everyone and I'm perfect Hmm

In reality, I have no self esteem whatsoever, am constantly putting myself down to the annoyance of my DP and close friends, and always putting others first, ALWAYS.

Ugh. Why do I let it get to me.

Hissy · 29/03/2014 18:45

Focus on what you know to be the truth. The opposite of what she says is what you and your family know to be true.

Why did your dad let her use his phone?

Try not to let any of this get to you. You know what it's all about.

Cleorapter · 29/03/2014 18:47

Because he has no backbone and he's her biggest enabler.

Aye, I know. I need a stiff drink I think. Wine

Thank you for the support, I really appreciate it Thanks

YouPutYourRightArmIn · 29/03/2014 18:50

Oh Cleo it's so hard isn't it. If you're anything like me, all of the things atilla and hissy write make so much sense yet it's very hard to put that into real life.

Of course you care, it's your mum. We are programmed to care. I don't know your backstory but I hope you can find some way to shake off the fog and have a lovely day tomorrow.

Meerka · 29/03/2014 19:03

my biological mother and one sister were/are the same. They think they're looking clearly at you and giving you honest feedback and all they are doing is talking into a mirror. Seriously.

If you doubt it, ask your husband / trusted friend for an outside reality check. It does help. One very close friend spontaneously said of that sister "she's talking about herself when she tells you all your faults isn't she?" in the days before I cut contact.

I'll bet you money that that is the case for you as well.

Like rightarm says ... we're programmed to care. But your real friends and family can tell you the true situation

Hissy · 29/03/2014 21:19

Just been told of the headstone for my gm being laid in a couple of months. DM and her h are going, so I'll not go. I can take ds after it's laid.just know they'd make it a drama and I'd be made to look the black sheep, when I'm not. Out of respect for the rest of my family (cousin,aunts,uncles) I'll not allow them to make a circus out of anything just because I'm there. Plus, ds would be there too, and he's already suffered enough thanks to them.

Meerka · 29/03/2014 21:27

sounds a good move, visiting after with flowers. Is there anyone in the extended family at all who understands your situation and could go with you when you go? (and who will keep their mouths shut)

curlinthemiddleofmyforehead · 29/03/2014 22:36

Hi. I've never posted on this thread before - been wanting to for quite a while, but just didn't know where to start or how to describe my relationship with my parents. I feel like a traitor even writing this (and then beat myself up for feeling like that). Last year I read most of Daughters of Narcisstic Mothers, and identified with a lot of it, but it was like there was something blocking me from finishing it. Since then, without really thinking about it too much, I have limited the information that I share with my parents, well, my mum in particular. We usually see them about once a fortnight (I have two young DCs so it’s for their benefit more than mine), so I haven’t felt the need to have less face-to-face contact, but I have stopped telling her things, where I lay myself open to criticism or ridicule. Normally, after I have spent any length of time with her, I am upset for about 3 days – over-analysing everything, dissecting every criticism…asking myself why… Since being a lot less open, I find it more tolerable to see them and feel ok with our relationship. The funny thing is that they don’t have any genuine interest in what I do, who I see or where I go. If ever I go into detail about something, she switches off/goes silent/turns away/turns the conversation back to her.

But now (you knew this was coming, right?), it has suddenly all blown up in my face. We hadn’t seen them for a while as they’d been on holiday. When they returned, the sh*t hit the fan – they can ‘never get hold of me’ and I ‘never return calls’ (which is rubbish, by the way - sent them four emails while they were away, and have had no missed calls). So they’ve obviously been stewing over things while they were away, couldn’t pin it down to anything, but decided to let rip at me when they got back anyway – apparently ‘something is going on’ and they want to know what it is. Now I am the black sheep of the family again, as happens every time I dare to stand up to them. We’ve had a row, and no matter what I say, I’m in the wrong. So now my mum is the wounded wide-eyed victim/martyr and I am the bitch. I’ve spoken to my siblings, who agree with me that both parents are acting bonkers over this – but no-one but me has the guts to stand up to them. My sister even said that even though I haven’t done anything wrong, I should apologise just to keep the peace. For the first time in my life, I have not apologised to them (and will not be doing so) .

This all happened a few weeks ago. I’ve seen my mum twice since and it’s a frosty atmosphere to say the least. She’s turning up out of the blue, knowing that it’s at inconvenient times. It’s as if she is goading me to pick a fight so that she has liberty to openly attack me again. I can’t stand all of this tension. She said some nasty things to me during the row, calling me names that actually apply better to herself than me. I feel so very low at the moment, without all of this: I’m exhausted from looking after two small children day-in-day-out, and feel very alone. DH gets it, but gets worked up when I try to discuss it with him – he wants to fix it, and gets frustrated that he can’t. I don’t have any real friends, just acquaintances, and I have no self-esteem at the best of times, so this has really knocked me down further. Where do I go from here?

Apologies for this really long post by the way. It's taken me about an hour and a half to write it as my head is in such a mess. And apologies if it seems like I'm being vague on detail - I'm terrified of outing myself as family members are on MN...

Chiggers · 29/03/2014 22:38

Hi ladies. Just wondering if I can let off a bit of steam? As you may know, I had a bit of an run in with my brother over our dogs, with my brother threatening to stab them if they sniffed round his DC the wrong way.

It feels like I'm fighting a lost cause TBH and by that I mean that I'm trying to please DP's and DB and his family. The problem is that I know I'm not even being acknowledged, but still have the constant urge to try and please them, to try to make them proud of us. It hurts when they don't even acknowledge the sheer effort put in and to stop caring about them/trying to please them feels like a complete alien concept and incredibly selfish. It goes against being taught to share and care about others. I suppose being told to care and share fits in nicely with a narc as that's exactly what they want you to do to them.......share and care and focus solely on them. The more disappointed they seem the harder we try to keep them happy and the harder we try, the more they want from us. So the cycle goes on until we have nothing left to give and when that happens, they really show their disappointment and cut us off because we can't give anymore. It's hard to go and wish mum a happy mothers day when I know that she'll keep asking me to apologise and make up with DB.

I'm not going to apologise as I've gone through every part of the phone call and I haven't done or said anything wrong. Mum will keep on at me to mend things and if that doesn't happen, then I suspect that she will play it cool toward me and be civil, but nothing else. When I look back on the relationship mum and DB had, I see that DB is sort of playing the part of enabler. Ages ago me and mum clashed and there was no-one else involved at the time. DB decided to involve himself saying that it's his business as it involves mum. I asked him why he thought he was part of that clash since he wasn't there and he got all hissy and stroppy on me. I'm just fed up with him now and have got to the point where I don't like him at all, but I'm sure he'll blame DH for that probably saying that DH is turning me against them. Actually DH is a bloody decent bloke, is incredibly supportive and protective of me and has done plenty for mum and dad and DB, yet they seem to quickly forget about everything he has done and say he has done bugger all.

Apologies for this being so long ladies, I just had to vent a bit and would appreciate any advice offered.

Got to go now and take the pooches for a charge about, but I'll be back tomorrow. Take care and good night

Meerka · 29/03/2014 23:09

hello curl

Im afraid that the difficult news is that things are likely to get worse before they get better. Your mother sounds, well, spiteful at best - as if she's really got a vested interest in being nasty to you, whether you tell her everything in your life or whether you don't. Clearly before this you were unhappy with the way she was treating you, or the Daughters book would not have touched such a nerve with you.

At the moment it sounds like you are jsut beginning to find your own place to stand and be yourself; and that is a really good thing to do. Low contact is far, far better than being dominated and dragged down by her ... and if she's doing it to you, almost certainly she'll start doing it to your children, too, sadly :(

Ok, your mum is probably going to keep on pushing until she gets some response from you taht gives her the shadow of an excuse to blow up, whether that is becuase you eventaully have to say 'please don't come round at xxx time' or something else (she doesnt have a house key does she?!?!).

So the best thing to do is to plan how to handle it so that you keep your feet on that ground of your own that you've begun to find, and don't crumble. Because she will be a tyrant if you do.

Can you talk to your husband and explain taht you need him to keep calm and that you need to plan -how- to handle this together? consider what she's likely to do and how she's likely to behave and put together ideas on how to handle her. Keeping very calm, at least outwardly, is one very important aspect. You can fall apart later! Setting limits when she can or can't come is another thing. If she does not respect that - and she may not - then you will simply need to ask her to leave (or, better, ask your husband to ask her to leave). Asking her not to speak to you a certain way is another.

If you can get a skilled counsellor / therapist that would probably be a very, very good idea.

From what you've siad, I've got a feeling she will get very nasty and that your sisters are well-trained to keep the peace by giving way to her on everything. YOU are being the strong one here - and rightly so. An old author said something on the lines of 'everyone has to break free of excessive parental authority to lead their own lives'. Healthy parents gradually let go; unhealthy ones try desperately to keep control and power all their lives. you're doing the right thing!

Keep on being strong and keep coming here whenever you need to. Flowers


chiggers you are in much the same situation ... you have done nothing wrong and you are simply standing up for being treated and spoken to reasonably.

It sounds like you will have to accept that your mother may be cool for a while, maybe a long long while. You are perfectly right to not apologise.

At this point, it sounds like you simply are better off without contact with your brother and accepting, sadly, that your mother will be keeping some distance. The price of not playing the doormat role expected of you. Personally I think you need to face the sadness and maybe anger associated with the lack of respect shown to you by your family, including your mother. Nothing at all justifies you being bullied by your brother, and she should know that.

If she does keep on and on at you, would it be possible to say "I'm not prepared to discuss this any more" and if she -still- keeps on, to make your excuses and leave? she's going to be cool with you either way unless you apologise, and this way you actualy have some degree of control over your part in the situation.

I think that you know they will always blame your DH unless you do exactly what they want, because they can't bear to think that you might be actually thinking these independent thoughts for yourself.

I hope it's better than feared tomorrow and that you're okay. take care

MozzchopsThirty · 30/03/2014 07:58

Dreading today. I did send card but just put mum at top then mozzy at the bottom nothing else.

I'm going to text her happy Mother's Day and that's it

Try to enjoy the day with my dcs

AttilaTheMeerkat · 30/03/2014 08:11

Mozzchops,

You really do not have to send her a text message!!. This is your being programmed to care again. She does not give a shit about you.

Sadly others unwittingly give the narcs power over to them to the degree that they lack true self esteem. They think the narcissist will somehow endow them with what appears to be a limitless supply of self esteem. This never happens. Narcs take whatever others have to offer them to gratify their egos and leave them high and dry.

DontstepontheMomeRaths · 30/03/2014 08:17

Thinking of you all today with narc Mums.

In my case it's my Dad and I find Fathers Day hard. I'm not seeing my Mum today but I did send a card. She is Dad's enabler but I see her alone every 4-6 weeks for a few hours anyway.

It's such a hard day today for so many. I tend to avoid Facebook on days like today. I'm a lone parent, my ex doesn't do anything for it or take the kids shopping for a card. So fb can make me feel a bit bitter as others post their happy photos and I wish I had the same.

I hope you all manage to avoid the toxic Mums and MILs today and enjoy your days if you're Mums despite it all, you deserve it x

I did get a homemade card this morning though and that was lovely. But yes, no fb for me. It's too hard.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 30/03/2014 08:40

Curl,

Welcome.

I was waiting for the blow up from the time I started to read your post (have narc relatives) and there it inevitably was. You were set up for that good and proper by them.

I would agree with Meerka's response particularly with regards to you having counselling. BACP are good but there are caveats. You need to work with a therapist that you can actually work with and also someone who has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

I have previously found this excerpt most helpful:-

"There's only one way to get decent treatment from narcissists: keep your distance. They can be pretty nice, even charming, flirtatious, and seductive, to strangers, and will flatter you shamelessly if they want something from you. When you attempt to get close to them in a normal way, they feel you are putting emotional pressure on them and they withdraw because you're too demanding. They can be positively fawning and solicitous as long as they're afraid of you, which is not most people's idea of a real fun relationship.

I always have the problem that I get fed up and stay away from THEM long enough to forget exactly what the trouble was, then they come around again, and every narcissist I've known actually was quite lovable about half the time so I try it again. (I do not do that any more).

A clue: Run for cover when they start acting normal, maybe expressing a becoming self-doubt or even acknowledging some little fault of their own, such as saying they now realize that they haven't treated you right or that they took advantage of you before. They're just softening you up for something really nasty. These people are geniuses of "Come closer so I can slap you." Except that's not the way they think about it, if they think about it no, they're thinking, "Well, maybe you do really care about me, and, if you really care about me, then maybe you'll help me with this," only by "help" they mean do the whole thing, take total responsibility for it, including protecting and defending them and cleaning up the mess they've already made of it (which they will neglect to fill you in on because they haven't really been paying attention, have they, so how would they know??). They will not have considered for one second how much of your time it will take, how much trouble it may get you into in their behalf, that they will owe you BIG for this no, you're just going to do it all out of the goodness of your heart, which they are delighted to exploit yet again, and your virtue will be its own reward: it's supposed to just tickle you pink to be offered this generous opportunity of showing how much you love them and/or how lucky you are to be the servant of such a luminous personage. No lie they think other people do stuff for the same reason they do: to show off, to perform for an audience. That's one of the reasons they make outrageous demands, put you on the spot and create scenes in public: they're being generous they're trying to share the spotlight with you by giving you the chance to show off how absolutely stunningly devoted-to-them you are. It means that they love you; that's why they're hurt and bewildered when you angrily reject this invitation.

There's no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists. They can't tolerate the least disagreement. In fact, if you say, "Please don't do that again it hurts," narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like "I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn't hurt you and you are lying about it now..." sorry, folks, I get lost after that. Anyhow, narcissists are habitually cruel in little ways, as well as big ones, because they're paying attention to their fantasy and not to you, but the bruises on you are REAL, not in your imagination. Thus, no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw. Be wary of wandering into this dragon's cave narcissists will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate restoration of the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes physically) and spew a load of bile, insult, abuse, contempt, threats, etc., and then well, it's kind of like they had indigestion and the vicious tirade worked like a burp: "There. Now I feel better. Where were we?" They feel better, so they expect you to feel better, too. They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you. When you object to this kind of treatment, they will say, "You just have to accept me the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are too stupid to understand how special I am.)" Accepting them as they are (and staying away from them entirely) is excellent advice. The other "punishment" narcissists mete out is banishing you from their glorious presence this can turn into a farce, since by this point you are probably praying to be rescued, "Dear God! How do I get out of this?" The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) -- the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned your lesson, you won't answer that call. They can't see that they have a problem; it's always somebody else who has the problem and needs to change".

There is really no going back from this because you will keep being on their receiving end.

I would also seriously consider keeping your children too well away from them as of now, particularly your mother. NC is an option but one that you cannot countenance at present. A good rule of thumb here is that the parent is too toxic/difficult for you to deal with they are far too toxic for your vulnerable and defenceless children. You only see them for your children supposed benefit anyway (they will not benefit); its not a good enough reason at all to keep seeing them and subjecting yourselves to them. Seeing a narcissist interact with their grandchild is painful, mainly because there is no interaction. Its like watching a re-run of a tv show you've always hated.

Its not your fault she is like this and such women always need a willing enabler to help them.

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