What constitutes inappropriate touching?

[waterlego6064]

I'm so confused so please bear with me if I don't make much sense. Also, apologies if this was the wrong choice of board for this thread.

Ok. My FIL is a lovely (albeit quite irritating) person who I get on with. My DCs are very fond of him.

FIL has 4 granddaughters in total, aged 6, 8, 8 and 10. He also has two grandsons. He is very fond of all of them but particularly the girls. That in itself is probably not unusual.

However, FIL is quite tactile with them and I'm not sure whether it's crossed a line, and if so, what I should do about it.

Yesterday at their house, my DD (aged 8) was standing beside FIL looking at something on his laptop. He was sitting down an has his arm around her middle. He was stroking her hip area and also her bottom. (Not with his full hand- just sort of tips of fingers). Lots of people were in the room so it's not as though he was trying to do it covertly. I felt uneasy about how he was touching her (DD herself didn't seem to mind) but wasn't sure how to deal with it. In the end, I sort of laughed nervously and said quietly 'is Grandad tickling your bottom DD?' She laughed and said yes and then he stopped doing it.

I have seen him touch all of the granddaughters in a similar way at various times.

I absolutely don't think it's a sexual thing for him, but I'm really not sure it's appropriate. I don't think DH or I touch our DCs like that, although we might playfully pat them on the bottom during tickling/bundling games for example.

I just remembered that thing about 'any area that would normally be covered by a bathing suit' and therefore feel that it's inappropriate touch.

How do I deal with it though? Speak to DD about it? Or DH? Or directly to FIL?

Or am I in fact completely overreacting? Any opinions greatly appreciated.

this would make me v. uncomfortable. but I could not tell you if this is because I have 'issues'

I honestly don't even know how you could go about sorting this.

Why don't you ask dd how she feels about it?

I think it's inappropriate, and you should say something.

Maybe tie it in with what children need to be taught about the fact that their bodies are their own. You are glad he's fond of them, and think the occasional hug and kiss is a good way of showing them that.

But if they grow up believing that adults can just touch and stroke them all the time, it will be easier for somebody with bad intentions to take advantage of them. And nobody wants that, do they?

If it makes you, as her mother, uncomfortable then it is not an overreaction even if there is no bad intent on his part.

I would raise it with him and let him know that it made you uncomfortable. He may well be quite shocked if he is genuine (and act outraged if he isn't ) but remain firm in your approach that it made you uncomfortable. To be fair to him, your daughter didn't seem to have been perturbed by it so it was probably all quite innocent.

I would also find a way to gently talk with your daughter about her right to her own body in general terms.

This is so helpful, thank you all very much.

I will ask DD, but I'm pretty sure she doesn't mind it, and yes, I do think it's done innocently.

Fraumoose I think you're spot-on. Even if she doesn't mind it now, from Grandad... she might not want that kind of touch from someone else and I feel I need to help her understand that her body is hers and that certain parts of it are more intimate or private than others.

Thanks all, very much.

Meant to say, I will also talk to FIL about it. Either directly or via DH.

I have to say I'd be uncomfortable with it too, but advise extreme caution on how/if you bring it up with your DD OP. You need to be careful NOT to project your concern about this specific incident onto her...maybe leave it a few weeks before your raise the subject in general, so that she doesn't connect it to her granddad's behaviour.

When you do have the talk however, it needs to be clear to her that these boundaries apply equally to family members as well as strangers.

Nots saying its sexual but there is a good campaign on at the moment by NSPCC about your underwear I will attempt my first link...

www.nspcc.org.uk/help-and-advice/for-parents/keeping-your-child-safe/the-underwear-rule/the-underwear-rule_wda97016.html

Well actually I have had similar experiences myself and I can understand why you feel confused as to how to act. You definitely should, it's just how that's the question.

I agree that the first person you should speak to is your dd. As subtly as possible of course, but try and find out her feelings. I would ask something like "do you remember the other day when we laughed about granddad tickling your bottom? Has he done that before? Do you mind him doing that?" etc. Depending on your dds reaction, I would take it from there. I think you should speak to your dh too, but after you've spoken to your dd and possibly your fil. I would predict that if you talk to your dh about it first, he might try and brush it off as nothing and that he is just an affectionate/tactile person etc. Of course, this might very well be the case, but you need to find this out.

My ex used to say I was over reacting, but he agreed his behaviour wasn't appropriate. He would say it was innocent, it's just he didn't see what he was doing/saying as a problem.

My dd is a similar age to yours and actually, I would suggest that now is a good age to discuss inappropriate/unwanted touching to your dd. I already have with my dd and I think she understands the differences now. Just try your best not to scare her. The last thing I wanted was for her uncle, for example, who she adores, to give her a cuddle and her freak out and tell him to stop touching her. So you need to explain the differences and make sure that they understand. You may have already had 'the talk', but just thought I'd mention it.

How do you think your dh would react?

You've only seen him touch the girls like that? Never the boys? Unless they're much much older I would find that element strange in itself.

Yes, it's inappropriate. Fraumoose has got it spot on. Hope FIL is decent and understanding about why this has to stop.

Thank you, you've given me a lot to think about.

fiftyandfab That's really sensible advice, thank you. blackandwhiteswan I haven't yet talked to DD about welcome and unwelcome touching and I can see that this might be a good age to do so. I imagine my DH will react as your ex did! ie, he'll be a bit defensive because he'll feel like I'm accusing his dad of something sinister. And I can imagine him agreeing that it's inappropriate but innocent in motivation.

Jupiter Thank you for that link. That gives me a good basis for a talk with DD.

pomdere I've never seen him do it to the boys, no. The two boys are the youngest (2 and 5), the girls are all aged 6-10.

I really don't think FIL is a wrong'un...I couldn't bear to think it. I think he just doesn't realise what's acceptable. He has no daughters of his own, only sons.

Another vote for what FrauMoose said.

I think its inappropriate too, whether intended that way or not. I don't buy into this not having daughters of his own business, as an adult he should have an idea of what is acceptable.

Even if FIL is well-meaning and there's nothing sinister in his intentions, I think its a good thing that children are being taught more about what is acceptable and what isn't in terms of touching.

Good luck OP, hope everything gets sorted out ok.

FM is spot on

OP, I think you need to speak to your FIL, and don't beat about the bush

These are very important years for your dds. This is when they are learning about how to let people treat them.

I would not phrase it as "...this makes me uncomfortable," because then it's like you have the problem.

You: So FIL, I've been meaning to talk to you. Don't touch our daughtersor any of the childrenin the "swimsuit" area anymore.

Him: Abdabdab why abdababdab whine abdababdab

You: Don't do it anymore.

If he does it in front of you, call the child away from him, ask them to leave so you can talk with grandpa, and then tell FIL to leave.

I'm sorry but your children's safety is far more important than any relationship you might have with him or any feelings of discomfort you might have.

Food for thought: If you FIL stroked my bottom like that he would serve time in jail. Why is it different for a little kid?

Oh, and don't talk to your little girl until you can say, "I've spoken with FIL and he won't do that again. You know you can tell me if anyone ever touches you in an in appropriate way again."

Not on under any circumstances. FFS, I cuddle DD17 ONLY round the waist/shoulders and ONLY upon request, usually hers. Random affection is shown by patting the top of her head.

matildamatilda's approach is spot on.

I do think it's noteworthy that he only behaves like this with the girls. If it was totally innocent then I would expect him to display the same behaviour to all the children irrespective of gender.

I would keep their contact in the open and not allow sleepovers rather than ask tell him to stop that way you know your children are safe. And also ask DH to ensure the same and explain to him why (in confidence). I say this because if innocent it could potentially taint your FILs enjoyment of his grandchildren for ever.

can of course limit contact like that.

But not saying anything because it might "taint his enjoyment of his grandchildren"?

1. The little girls aren't there for his "enjoyment." If he loves them, he'll accept what the mother says to ensure their comfort and happiness. Otherwise, they don't need him in their life.

1. Why do his feelings matter here?

Once I was playing with a friend's three-year-old and tickling her. I went to blow in her ear because it was something my god-daughter (of the same age) thought was hilarious.

Turns out this particular toddler did NOT like that and so she froze and looked worried.

The nanny straightaway said, "That's right [toddler], you tell [matilda] 'It's my body and you can't do that!'"

So I admit I had this little defensive feeling (like "I didn't know!") but then I was glad the little girl was getting such a strong message early in life that affection was fine but only on her terms. I sort of wish we all had that! The nanny didn't give a fuck about my feelings at that moment and quite rightly too.

I just mean that any adult who actually cares about the child in question will back right off without worrying about their "enjoyment" of the child.

What Matilda said.

I think when behaviour is 'inappropriate', but there is no evidence of actions that have gone still further beyond the bounds of what is right, it may be worth being tactful, because

1. I think social norms have shifted. Awareness of child sexual abuse means that some behaviours which were commonplace twenty or thirty years ago - photographing nude chldren in the bath or the beach for example - are now often voided. But some members of the older generation haven't understood this, and either think or affect to think that patting a grandchild's bottom is acceptable.

2. I think children do have a right to relationships with grandparents unless what grandparents are doing is clearly wrong/harmful/distressing to the grandchild. (Some parents are very wedded to a particular parenting style, and want to cut off contact between grandchildren and grandparents' over relatively minor issues relating to say diet, whether or not a child should be told off etc...)

3. I tried very 'tactful' with my own father, whose behaviour towards my stepdaughter and daughter left a lot to be desired. (He never tried to hug or cuddle or do any kind of physical play with my stepson.) In fact the point at which things came to a head ended up being to do with frequency of visits. He was in effect trying to create a separate relationship with my daughter where he could take her off unsupervised, by choosing to visit at times when he knew I was especially busy. When I indicated the times that I would like him to visit - making it clear that other times were really not convenient - he accused me of preventing him from seeing his grandchild.

4. A tactful approach will - hopefully - minimise the risk of the OP's Other Half feeling that he's struggling/stuck in the middle of a conflict between his wife and his parents.

One can be unequivocal and tactful at the same time. There's nothing rude about saying, "Don't touch my daughter's in the swimsuit area."

To address your points:

1. He was stroking her bottom. That wasn't commonplace thirty years ago. This isn't a question of social norms changing.

1. They have a right to be protected and looked after, which trumps other things.

1. I'm sorry your father was annoying. You tried to be tactful but he didn't respect you. It sounds like it was awful.

1. There's no "conflict"it's not right for a grandfather to stroke his granddaughter's ass. Ideally he'll stop when told, great, everyone can move on. If grandfather can't handle that, that's his problem. If OP's husband cares more about his father's feelings than his daughter's safety and dignitythen that will be a hard realisation for the OP I guess but at least she's finding out now.