What constitutes inappropriate touching?

[waterlego6064]

I'm so confused so please bear with me if I don't make much sense. Also, apologies if this was the wrong choice of board for this thread.

Ok. My FIL is a lovely (albeit quite irritating) person who I get on with. My DCs are very fond of him.

FIL has 4 granddaughters in total, aged 6, 8, 8 and 10. He also has two grandsons. He is very fond of all of them but particularly the girls. That in itself is probably not unusual.

However, FIL is quite tactile with them and I'm not sure whether it's crossed a line, and if so, what I should do about it.

Yesterday at their house, my DD (aged 8) was standing beside FIL looking at something on his laptop. He was sitting down an has his arm around her middle. He was stroking her hip area and also her bottom. (Not with his full hand- just sort of tips of fingers). Lots of people were in the room so it's not as though he was trying to do it covertly. I felt uneasy about how he was touching her (DD herself didn't seem to mind) but wasn't sure how to deal with it. In the end, I sort of laughed nervously and said quietly 'is Grandad tickling your bottom DD?' She laughed and said yes and then he stopped doing it.

I have seen him touch all of the granddaughters in a similar way at various times.

I absolutely don't think it's a sexual thing for him, but I'm really not sure it's appropriate. I don't think DH or I touch our DCs like that, although we might playfully pat them on the bottom during tickling/bundling games for example.

I just remembered that thing about 'any area that would normally be covered by a bathing suit' and therefore feel that it's inappropriate touch.

How do I deal with it though? Speak to DD about it? Or DH? Or directly to FIL?

Or am I in fact completely overreacting? Any opinions greatly appreciated.

Hmmm I know this is awkward FIL, but I have just been having this conversation with DD's about the pants/swimsuit area.. and...

Its going to be awkward full stop if you have that conversation anyway, but there needs to be 'a boundary' in place whether they are family or not

OMG I'm surprised by some of the posts in this thread. He's their grandfather! I can't believe the suspicion that some people are now putting their own parents under when it comes to their children.

FrauMoose - what is wrong with your father having a relationship with your daughter in which he sees her 'unsupervised'? Even the suggestion that grandparents need to be 'supervised' when seeing their granddchildren to me sounds horrendous.

Beth It's not about being suspicious of the grandparents, it's about teaching your children boundaries that are unquestionable so that they are less likely to be vulnerable to grooming by someone else.

Not all grandparents can be trusted to make the right decisions. Some people with dodgy boundaries will go on to have children and grandchildren. My mother did.

Don't be naive beth. 1 in 4 people were sexually abused as kids. Abusers don't wear signs or dirty raincoats. And most abuse happens in the family. Op is right to be very wary of this behaviour. It's worrying.

If a mother is suspicious of her father's behaviour around grandchildren ... well, I can't imagine a mother doing that without good reason.

Men who are mid-60s plus have very different views on women etc. They still think of women as chattels & girls rather than women. From my experience of my father & his friends I don't think they see women as equals. These are the generation of men who are getting hauled up by the courts for sexual abuse.

It was inappropriate for my father to see my granddaughter unsupervised for a variety of reasons

1. When she was three months old and being breastfed he took her for a walk without telling me. I was panicked to find her gone

2. On an occasion when I put her down to sleep on a bed, I found he had gone into that bedroom and was lying down next to her in the dark. (My father was in good health and never went to bed for a rest during the day.)

3. His behaviour around small female children was obsessive. He was always trying to initiate physical play with them. He had no interest whatsoever in male children.

4. He had no interest in what me or my husband were doing. He had shown a passing interest in my stepdaughter but ignored my stepson. However as soon as my daughter was born he stated that he wanted to see her very regularly, and sought to initiate visits in which he'd come without my mother. He was completely indifferent to the fact I had had a difficult birth, was trying to continue freelance work and that my husband and I were also committed to ensuring that my stepchildren got plenty of love and attention after my daughter was born, so that meant that regular weekend visitors made life tiring and difficult.

Both my husband and I felt that while we could permit him to continue seeing my daughter at times when we could keep a close eye on him, but that allowing him to have the regular unsupervised contact that he was seeking to develop would have been unwise

Sorry his granddaughter - not my granddaughter

Even the suggestion that grandparents need to be 'supervised' when seeing their granddchildren to me sounds horrendous.

I agree. That's why we went for no contact at all.

My father is in his 60s and would never do this.

My stepfather used to touch me like this all the time,
Always in plain sight. It made me freeze inside and I have many issues now because of it.

Please protect your dc

I remember a couple of occasions when my father visited me at the end of his life. His cancer was progressing rapidly.

However he had time to move very rapidly indeed when we met a neighbour on the street and I stopped to chat/introduce him. My friend had two sons and a baby in a pushchair. My father was seized with the desire to know whether this baby was a girl he could start to talk to and play with. (Once he saw it was a male baby he lost interest.)

It was also noticeable that - in contrast to his normal practice at home - he chose to keep the door of his bedroom wide open at all times. This was because the room was next to the one where my daughter was sleeping. My husband and I thought the overwhelming probability was that he wanted to be able to see my daughter walking around in her nightwear.

While there are people who think of the family as a place of safety, and the outside world as full of us as dangerous strangers - those of us who are more savvy know that it is the other way round. People with inappropriate feelings towards chlldren will go for easy targets.

Oh dear, I read OP's post with a shudder. I was at a summer party with my DD and her children, at the house of one of her friends. Lot of young kids there and the FIL of my daughter's friend. In the garden there were swings and a climbing frame, near which DD and I were sitting. FIL strolled over to the climbing frame and was 'helping' little girls climb up on it, by giving them a push up with his hand between their legs, on their crotch area He didn't 'help' the little boys.

Daughter and I looked at each other in disbelief, then went to find her friend, DIL of the man. She was embarrassed and flustered but said it was just that her FIL loved his grandchildren and there was no harm in him.

This was back in the 1990s. I'm now waiting for 'granddad' to have his collar felt by those grownup little girls. Here's hoping ...

I have only read your original post, OP. I am sorry to say that I think that he is totally and completely OUT OF ORDER. It was good the way you handled it I think. In front of everyone. However I think that you should try and talk to other family members about it and then approach him with others there too. I would say if he tried to squirm his way out of it, that I would stop contact. He has no idea of boundaries and I would highly suspect that he is an abuser. Not OK.

How would you feel if he was doing this to your son or to a nephew? It's the same.

I am not sure if I agree with the underwear rule. I often pat or squeeze my son's bum. I am not abusing him. I teach my son that penises and vaginas are private parts that only he can touch (unless someone is giving him a wash - he still wears a pull up at night) and he shouldn't touch anyone elses either.

Well I certainly wasn't pleased to see my elderly mother repeatedly patting my daughter's bottom on one occasion during a visit two years or so back - my daughter would have been in her early teens at a time. My daughter was quite squirmy and clearly didn't feel comfortable. I felt it was not appropriate, and if I became aware of my mother doing that again, I'd have to get her to stop.

I have to ask something similar. My FIL used to kiss my girls on the lips rather than the cheek whenever we'd visited. Its only a quick peck but I always felt uncomfortable with it. I mentioned it once to my wife but she lost it and said I was virtually calling her dad a nonce.
I wasn't. Its probably just how I was brought up or something. I know he's have been horrified if I would have said something to him.

Its probably just me over-reacting. I just didn't feel comfortable with it.

I think age comes into it. DS is 8 in June and fine with a kiss on the lips. I imagine in another year or two this won't be the case.

The main message with regards to 'Child Abuse' is to TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS! Act now before it is too late (even if you don't feel able to approach the person, ensure your child is not left alone with them and be vigilant). If things make you feel uncomfortable, however innocent, act upon it NOW before it escalates. You would never forgive yourself if you had ignored the signs - many do, because they don't want to falsely accuse anyone. These people get away with their actions because of this! If it's not your child, it maybe someone elses!

OMG FrauMoose, with everything I know about 'grooming' etc, what you say screams of this! Forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn, but what you have described is exactly how Child Abusers behave.

We ALL have a right to say NO! It is your responsibility as a parent to safeguard your children if you feel an action is inappropriate - don't just think about it, prevent it from going any further! They may not be abusers, but if you don't like it, STOP it from happening! You wouldn't allow an adult to do it to you if you didn't like it, so please don't allow them to do it to your children.

I think Fraumoose's suggestion at the beginning of the thread is spot on; letting your dd know what is acceptable touchwise & communicating that discussion to wider family so that the boundaries are clear for everyone. It's being proactive but not aggressively accusatory to one individual.

Wait, so then step one in the above scenario would be to talk to the child and explain to her that it's not appropriate for her grandfather to touch her that way? Like she doesn't already know that?

Without actually addressing the person responsible for the situation? Out of fear for his feelings?

No matter how gently the girl is getting spoken to, she's going to get the message loud and clear that this is her problem.

She's also going to get the message that grandpa must always be placated, no matter how inappropriately he behaves.

The daughter most likely already has the feeling that it's a bit off. I mean, kids of her age know that the swimsuit area is "naughty" or off-limits. She also knows that her grandfather touched her there, her mother noticed, and instead of grandfather being given a clear boundary, the little girl is the one getting a talking to, to have something "explained" that she already knows?

I swear to god some of the responses on this thread make me despair.

In the general mood of this thread, what do you think about a father giving a playful little 'spank' on a daughter's bottom?

I would not think anything of it.

Yes,it would make me uneasy.

BUT, it does not warrant automatic assumptions of paedophilia and child abuse.

Old people are physically touched, and get to touch, far fewer times than younger people. Sometimes fondness and affection can inadvetently stray. Do not be too harsh.