DH thinks it's okay for BIL to sexually harass me

[matildamatilda]

There's no one I can speak to in real life about this. I can't bear the idea of spending any more time with BIL. Recent pervy comment was last straw.

Context: husband is older than me, and his only brother is in fact much older than him, so it transpires that BIL is the same age as my father (mid-70s). BIL is notorious for being "inappropriate"--when we first got acquainted, he was enthusiastic about having a "new sister" so there were a lot of hugs, kisses, snuggles, sneak-attack "hugs" when I was in my bathrobe. So early on I had to set a boundary that I was not okay with that and now we only shake hands. BIL has respected that without a murmur, to his credit. Now he waits for me to extend my hand, and then shakes it.

Earlier, says my husband, BIL had this habit of kissing women on the lips, and his women friends had to set him straight. This is supposed to tell me that BIL means well but is just clueless, or something.

BIL has a wife and is a classic verbal abuser. My husband and I hate spending time with them--BIL just gibbers insults at her with his every waking breath, whilst she sort of laughs and mumbles. It's awful. This is something that all our mutual friends notice, and some of their closer friends have tried to talk to him about it.

Anyway: We visited last month and whilst on a drive to this isolated country estate BIL was gibbering insults to his wife as usual. To sort of lighten the mood I told a story about how we'd been to an immersive dance performance the night before, and how one of the dancers had done a pratfall and rolled right up to where the audience was standing. I said: "He nearly rolled against my legs! I had to step backwards, ha ha."

So BIL responded that it was because I had sexy dancer's legs so of course he would roll towards them. Ha ha. BIL went on, "He's just doing what we'd all secretly like to do hahaha."

I said, "Yeah that's not creepy at all." BIL either didn't hear me or "didn't hear" me and went on until I snapped, "ALL RIGHT."

Then we all had a lovely day at the country estate, as you can imagine.

When my husband and I were alone again, I lit into him for just sitting there not saying anything whilst his brother sexually harassed me.

He said that I ruined the day because he could tell I was upset and there was an atmosphere.

Then my husband actually mansplained to me that older men can't be expected not to "joke" like that and he meant it as a compliment, and that BIL would never actually sexually assault me.

Now my husband is one of those men who's read all the feminist theorists and is on the board of this local "Men Against Rape Culture" group. So I called him on the misogynist apologist nonsense and he said, "Well, I love my brother and I won't stop spending time with him."

Now, BIL's behaviour is BIL's problem. Husband isn't responsible for him.

However, here's what I can't get past: Husband says he's resigned to "my difficulty with BIL" and has told a close friend that the trip wasn't great because "BIL and matildamatilda had a spat."

Whereas, the fact is that I don't like being sexually harassed, because I'm normal.

TL;DR-- Don't see how I can stay married to someone who thinks sexually harassment is okay.

Would it be possible for your Dh to have contact with is brother but for you not to?

*his

Well he probably doesn't think it's ok; but he's caught between a rock and a hard place, isn't he. He can't tell his older brother that his behaviour is unacceptable because he loves him and wants to still see him; and he can't defend you the way he would probably do if it were anyone other than his brother, because of this.

He's minimising his brother's behaviour to assuage his own guilt - by trying to turn it back onto you being over-sensitive, he can then live with his own inability to do anything about it.

IMO.

Up to you whether or not that's a deal-breaker though.

Thanks for the thoughtful comments.

Yes, I could just lay down the boundary that he's welcome to spending time with his brother all he wants--and I'll see him when he gets home.

I don't need his buy-in for that.

Either refuse to spend time in the company of your BIL, in which case your husband and you will be spending lots of time apart as he clearly wants to spend time with your BIL.

Or pull him up every single time he says something sexually harassing so he stops.

Your BIL sounds disgusting and creepy, it's not true that all older men think it's appropriate to kiss women on the lips and touch them inappropriately and make constant sexual remarks.

How long have you been wth your husband do you have children? I'd be afraid of allowing any DDs of mine be alone with creepy sleazy pervert BIL.

That's a good practical strategy but it doesn't exactly resolve the fact that your DH was prepared to minimise his brother's behaviour rather than defend you. When you lose respect for someone in a relationship and start to see them in a new, less favourable light, that can be problematic.

Two things that confused me about this:

1. The sort of big-brother hero worship I just don't get. And I say this as someone with five brothers of my own.

1. The "he meant it as a compliment" nonsense coming out of my own husband's mouth. This man who is more of an old-school feminist than I am. It was like his body had been taken over by aliens. I couldn't even be angry at that moment I was so embarrassed for him.

Isn't the real victim BILs wife? If any of my close family were being treated like that I would be supporting them. Not worrying about my occasional run in with BIL. Does your DH pull his brother up on his treatment of his wife?Living with someone who thinks verbal abuse is okay would be my issue.

To be fair, husband doesn't enjoy his brother's company either. Maybe once a year there'll be a visit of two days. Husband says he could never live under the same roof with BIL.

It's a sort of situation where husband loves BIL but doesn't like him, if that makes sense.

No, no children involved. I wouldn't let BIL near a teenage girl, are you kidding?

When my husband was doing the minimising crap I did think, "Jesus, imagine if he had a daughter he'd be telling all this crap to her."

Ghost--yeah, you're right. I actually work with abused women in my own work so it feels absolutely awful to see what's going on with SIL.

How would you bring it up? I don't know her well enough to speak with her one-on-one. They're all English and middle-class and I'm American so there's this sort of veneer which I find impenetrable sometimes. And she's three decades older than I am. I do sometimes think, should I write her a letter? I don't know, leave a leaflet in her purse? I honestly don't know.

He can't tell his older brother that his behaviour is unacceptable because he loves him and wants to still see him

But he's effectively telling matildamatilda her behaviour is unacceptable, even though he loves her and wants to still see her. Because she failed to respond to the mansplaining that men in their 70s have a free pass to behave like morons.

And there is plenty of evidence that BIL, if given direction on acceptable behaviour, is able to take this on board and act more reasonably. So it seems likely he can tell his brother his behaviour is unacceptable without this resulting in an irretrievable breakdown of relations, he just doesn't want to.

Frankly, however, there's no way I could spend any time with someone who continually verbally abused his wife. I just couldn't hack it.

Thanks, I'm really grateful for these responses. I don't know why I can't seem to just chat with people in real life about this. I don't have anything to be embarrassed about!

I disagree, tribpot - it's one thing to get someone to hold off on the physical interaction (a very small slice of time in the visit), but quite a lot harder to get them to change their way of thinking and talking to people (the vast majority of the time in the visit)

Also, I don't believe he IS telling Matilda that her behaviour is unacceptable as such - he's putting the blame on her because he can't park it where it belongs - at (primarily) his brother's feet, and (secondarily) his own.

My husband is a bit of a peacemaker, and yet at the same time he has a strong moral core. I think in this instance the peacemaker side is taking over.

I'm not interested in spending time with a guy who verbally abuses his wife and makes the occasional pervy comment to me. So I won't.

I agree with trib, but that's cos I've been on the end of verbal abuse and it's just hideous.

Oh I agree with that bit, and for not spending any more time with the BIL - listening to someone else abusing their wife would be horrendous!

Uggghh! He sounds foul and not normal at all.

Can I imagine my early-70s father, 65+ FIL or any of their friends behaving like this, ever? NO! Ugh - and they'd all think ugh too and probably take it even more seriously than I did.

Maybe your DH should talk through this example with his fellow board members? Might give him an interesting outside perspective (or lose him their respect and his role eventually). He could describe it as 'some friends of ours...' and see what the advice is.

Honestly, (in a very sweeping, have so little to go on that am undoubtedly barking up the wrong tree sort of way) the coincidence of his normalising this behaviour within his family while going so far out of his way to address it in the wider world, is far too great not to be remarked upon.

Two obvious questions:

1. What was their parents' relationship like? Do we have classic 'older brother copying father, younger being protective of mother' scenario here? (But unable to tackle it directly, so being driven by guilt and self-loathing to tackle 'the issue' in an impersonal way).

2. What is the real purpose and function of the group (as opposed to its purported one. What do they actually do and get out of it?). Is it like AA for people who have behaved despicably in the past or thought about, like al alon for relatives of those who have, or really a group of men who happen to be enlighted social activitists and picked this cause for reasons that were nothing to do with them but it seemed the right thing to do? Or a mixture? Is it really an outward looking and an effective activist group, or inward and self-absorbed?

It's perfectly possible that it is a solid and effect activist group, of course and much better that people struggling with issues do something useful than don't but I've seen enough groups which essentially attract 'people with an extreme interest, one way or another' (like the socialist worker student group in the early 90s, who all admitted to having voted for Thatcher in the 80s...) who do tend to make things all about themselves.

Anyway, yes, decline to spend time with BIL. Maybe invite his wife out with just you or some female friends some time?

Is he John McCrirrick (ex C4 racing commentator chappie)? If you know who I mean you'll know what I mean.

Okay, lottie, that's uncanny.

Maybe your DH should talk through this example with his fellow board members?

Ha! Are you psychic? That is exactly what I said to him, in a sort of sarcastic tone, but he responded in sincerity, "Maybe I should."

Do we have classic 'older brother copying father, younger being protective of mother' scenario here? (But unable to tackle it directly, so being driven by guilt and self-loathing to tackle 'the issue' in an impersonal way).

That is precisely and exactly what we have here.

To answer your question about the group, it's men speaking out against male violence against women. They do demonstrations and things. Men encouraging men to take responsibility for the issues. Don't want to say too much for fear of outing people. Husband serves on several community boards.

I'm thinking I just need to say plainly to husband and to BIL and to anyone, "No, I 'm afraid I don't want to spend any time with BIL because I don't like listening to him abuse his wife and I don't like being sexually harassed by him."

Btw, while I'm all for being nice to his wife, she has a massive vested interest in normalising his behaviour, it's been part of her identity and chosen lifestyle for decades. Facing the idea that she had and has a choice and 'should' have chosen differently would be extremely uncomfortable, humiliating and possibly destructive for her.

So, by all means make jokey asides to cheer her up and undermine him, or be friendly in your distant way but, unless you're offering some pretty full-scale support, I wouldn't go dropping leaflets into her handbag that suggest you think she's being abused and needs help. She'll feel got at, upset and isolated and won't be willing or able to do anything about it anyway.

That sounds horribly defeatist but, unless he's much more abusive than you describe, she could have left years ago. Even if she'd somehow like to, saying you can see it, without offering a supported way out, or happier way of managing her environment, does her no favours.

No, lottie, I was sort of being absurdist about the leaflets. I wouldn't dream of doing that. I was trying to emphasise that I don't believe there is any constructive way I could actually bring it up with her, for the same reasons you cite.

How very weak of your DH, OP. Does a woman's opinion, instinct, feeling on sexual harassment actually mean anything to him? or is he just playing lip service in the community. I actually hope he does discuss with fellow board members, it will do him good and make him see sense. In the meantime dont spend any more time with his creepy pervy brother. You sound pretty assertive, and thats a good thing. Its a shame your DH cant take a leaf out of your book. Honestly...what kind of man, allows ANY man - brother or not - to view and talk to his wife as if she is just a sexual object, often fully within his hearing, and is OK with that? & having to be within earshot of your BILs verbal abuse of his wife - I dont think you'll be able to stand that much longer, OP. Further evidence of his total disdain for women. The man's a complete idiot and I bet most people around him know that. Your DH needs to open his eyes. & open his mouth when another man tries to degrade his wife.

Yes, thought so but you know, you're American, you might have some funny ideas about being active and positive or something (joking!!!).

Me, active and positive? Never! Grumpy and lazy. (Also joking.)

yes I'd thought of the "well this would be a fine real, working, personal example for your board chums to kick around, wouldn't it just?".

but to get back to your question though, it depends. What you're asking is 'should I stay married to someone who fails to see these exchanges as sexual harassment?' Hopefully after absorbing your comments, and the input from his board people this shouldn't be a problem for much longer.