DH thinks it's okay for BIL to sexually harass me

[matildamatilda]

There's no one I can speak to in real life about this. I can't bear the idea of spending any more time with BIL. Recent pervy comment was last straw.

Context: husband is older than me, and his only brother is in fact much older than him, so it transpires that BIL is the same age as my father (mid-70s). BIL is notorious for being "inappropriate"--when we first got acquainted, he was enthusiastic about having a "new sister" so there were a lot of hugs, kisses, snuggles, sneak-attack "hugs" when I was in my bathrobe. So early on I had to set a boundary that I was not okay with that and now we only shake hands. BIL has respected that without a murmur, to his credit. Now he waits for me to extend my hand, and then shakes it.

Earlier, says my husband, BIL had this habit of kissing women on the lips, and his women friends had to set him straight. This is supposed to tell me that BIL means well but is just clueless, or something.

BIL has a wife and is a classic verbal abuser. My husband and I hate spending time with them--BIL just gibbers insults at her with his every waking breath, whilst she sort of laughs and mumbles. It's awful. This is something that all our mutual friends notice, and some of their closer friends have tried to talk to him about it.

Anyway: We visited last month and whilst on a drive to this isolated country estate BIL was gibbering insults to his wife as usual. To sort of lighten the mood I told a story about how we'd been to an immersive dance performance the night before, and how one of the dancers had done a pratfall and rolled right up to where the audience was standing. I said: "He nearly rolled against my legs! I had to step backwards, ha ha."

So BIL responded that it was because I had sexy dancer's legs so of course he would roll towards them. Ha ha. BIL went on, "He's just doing what we'd all secretly like to do hahaha."

I said, "Yeah that's not creepy at all." BIL either didn't hear me or "didn't hear" me and went on until I snapped, "ALL RIGHT."

Then we all had a lovely day at the country estate, as you can imagine.

When my husband and I were alone again, I lit into him for just sitting there not saying anything whilst his brother sexually harassed me.

He said that I ruined the day because he could tell I was upset and there was an atmosphere.

Then my husband actually mansplained to me that older men can't be expected not to "joke" like that and he meant it as a compliment, and that BIL would never actually sexually assault me.

Now my husband is one of those men who's read all the feminist theorists and is on the board of this local "Men Against Rape Culture" group. So I called him on the misogynist apologist nonsense and he said, "Well, I love my brother and I won't stop spending time with him."

Now, BIL's behaviour is BIL's problem. Husband isn't responsible for him.

However, here's what I can't get past: Husband says he's resigned to "my difficulty with BIL" and has told a close friend that the trip wasn't great because "BIL and matildamatilda had a spat."

Whereas, the fact is that I don't like being sexually harassed, because I'm normal.

TL;DR-- Don't see how I can stay married to someone who thinks sexually harassment is okay.

I don't know if you will read this matilda, but is it worth talking to your DH about how it is easy to challenge misogyny when that challenge is at no personal cost, and that is effectively what he is doing with his activism. Virtually all female feminists will have challenged misogyny in very difficult circumstances such as a parent or a boss. He needs to stop taking the easy way out and get serious about challenging misogyny.

And i would be angry with him too in your situation. At the very least he should be saying to his brother that is not okay to say those things to you. And to be honest I have heard men challenge this kind of stuff before in close much loved relatives, when the men themselves are far from feminists.

Why is it acceptable for OP to be upset but not BIL? Just why?

What makes him more important? I'm getting on a bit; so what. I don't expect people making allowances for me.

I just wanted to add a supportive message matilda. Sadly, it's par for the course when discussing sexual harrassment in any way, shape or form that someone will rock up to minimise it, tell you you're handling it all wrong, etc.

I'm really impressed that you handled it so assertively, as women we are socialised to be 'nice' about this kind of thing. I also think it's entirely normal to be upset by your husband's reaction as not only did he not step in with his brother (who sounds vile) he then told you it wasn't a big deal!

Why is it acceptable for OP to be upset but not BIL? Just why?

It isn't. Of course it isn't.

But the DH, based on the OP's post about his family dynamic, has spent his entire life under the malign influence of his much older brother. It's disappointing, but not surprising, that he can't break free from (presumably) 40+ years of conditioning.

The DH, based on the OP's posts about his feminist group, is working through his conditioning. TBH, he sounds way more enlightened than many, many men.

Honestly and truly, do people really think that this is a LTB scenario, when instead the OP can simply never see her disgusting BIL again? (If the DH doesn't accept that solution then we're in a different ball game, I agree.)

I have heard other men who have never read any feminist theorists, challenging this kind of stuff. My father for one challenged the way he spoke to my mum. He knew not to do this would be wrong.

The idea that because you are old you can't be challenged is incredibly ageist. My mother challenged, successfully, my gran when she was in her 80's. My gran was far from enlightened, but she was perfectly able to learn that at the least, certain words were offensive to her daughter and so she stopped using them - at least around her.

It doesn't matter what influences you have had in your life. We all have the ability to form opinions other than those we have been indoctrinated with; we have brains. This man needs to be told that his behaviour is not acceptable to you OP.

Can I just say. You have asked for advice and then been quite rude to myself and others such as cinebar who are just offering their advice and opinion on how to move forward. I never said his comments were acceptable. .....

It doesn't matter what influences you have had in your life. We all have the ability to form opinions other than those we have been indoctrinated with; we have brains.

We wouldn't dream of saying this to a woman in an abusive relationship, who wasn't yet ready to leave her abuser (whether husband, partner, parents or siblings). Why is it any different for a man?

This man needs to be told that his behaviour is not acceptable to you OP.

Yes. I suspect that OP has already made it clear to her DH, but if not then I'm sure she will.

You have asked for advice and then been quite rude to myself and others such as cinebar who are just offering their advice and opinion on how to move forward

The OP's had a horrible experience at the hands of BIL, and feels unsupported by her DH. I don't mind her getting angry with me, under the circumstances.

I don't know if you will read this matilda, but is it worth talking to your DH about how it is easy to challenge misogyny when that challenge is at no personal cost, and that is effectively what he is doing with his activism. Virtually all female feminists will have challenged misogyny in very difficult circumstances such as a parent or a boss. He needs to stop taking the easy way out and get serious about challenging misogyny.

Yes, this. He's presumably very big on suggesting other men check their privilege - perhaps he might want to reflect on his inability to check his own.

Really sorry you're dealing with this. TBH I'm afraid my understanding is that minimising and victim blaming is the most common response within families to any degree of sexual abuse. People are comfier thinking their relatives are just a bit socially inept/it's all normal interaction/the victim is just over-reacting and a bit sensitive, because the alternative is decidedly awkward for them to deal with. I know a girl whose older brother sexually abused her as a teenager, and she was told "all children sexually experiment" by her mother (who wanted to work with abused kids, incidentally...) and that he had "problems she should be more understanding about". And then she was excluded from all family events because she refused to see her abuser, and the whole family went to great pains to stress that they loved them both equally and weren't taking sides and were inviting both... which of course meant the abuser happily rocked up and she stayed away. I should add that there was no doubt the abuse happened: the mother witnessed some of it one day. My friend was told in therapy that this family reaction - minimise, normalise, place responsibility on the victim -is actually more normal than any other, whereas if anyone outside the family had done this to her, they'd have closed ranks to protect her.

So in this (thankfully much lesser) situation, your H's response is bang on the norm, it would seem. Not that I am saying he doesn't need to pause and reflect on the lack of support he's offering you, in his own need to pretend you're the one with the issue.

Sorry haven't read the replies but I just want to say this is disgusting behaviour and if it was my brother acting like this I would be telling him exactly what I thought and if he couldn't see it then I would be explaining that sadly I could not continue to see him because my loyalty was to my OH. I think the "what we'd all secretly like to do..." part is a dead giveaway of this man's mindset. In a way it's worse when it's done in a jolly joky fashion. I have been on the receiving end of a lot of comments like this (not from family) and it makes me so angry because they do it so you know their intent, but it's ambiguous enough for everyone else to be able to pass it off as banter. Don't know what to say really just sorry that your DH is not supportive.
Well done on stopping the sleazy touching btw. That is quite difficult.