DH thinks it's okay for BIL to sexually harass me

[matildamatilda]

There's no one I can speak to in real life about this. I can't bear the idea of spending any more time with BIL. Recent pervy comment was last straw.

Context: husband is older than me, and his only brother is in fact much older than him, so it transpires that BIL is the same age as my father (mid-70s). BIL is notorious for being "inappropriate"--when we first got acquainted, he was enthusiastic about having a "new sister" so there were a lot of hugs, kisses, snuggles, sneak-attack "hugs" when I was in my bathrobe. So early on I had to set a boundary that I was not okay with that and now we only shake hands. BIL has respected that without a murmur, to his credit. Now he waits for me to extend my hand, and then shakes it.

Earlier, says my husband, BIL had this habit of kissing women on the lips, and his women friends had to set him straight. This is supposed to tell me that BIL means well but is just clueless, or something.

BIL has a wife and is a classic verbal abuser. My husband and I hate spending time with them--BIL just gibbers insults at her with his every waking breath, whilst she sort of laughs and mumbles. It's awful. This is something that all our mutual friends notice, and some of their closer friends have tried to talk to him about it.

Anyway: We visited last month and whilst on a drive to this isolated country estate BIL was gibbering insults to his wife as usual. To sort of lighten the mood I told a story about how we'd been to an immersive dance performance the night before, and how one of the dancers had done a pratfall and rolled right up to where the audience was standing. I said: "He nearly rolled against my legs! I had to step backwards, ha ha."

So BIL responded that it was because I had sexy dancer's legs so of course he would roll towards them. Ha ha. BIL went on, "He's just doing what we'd all secretly like to do hahaha."

I said, "Yeah that's not creepy at all." BIL either didn't hear me or "didn't hear" me and went on until I snapped, "ALL RIGHT."

Then we all had a lovely day at the country estate, as you can imagine.

When my husband and I were alone again, I lit into him for just sitting there not saying anything whilst his brother sexually harassed me.

He said that I ruined the day because he could tell I was upset and there was an atmosphere.

Then my husband actually mansplained to me that older men can't be expected not to "joke" like that and he meant it as a compliment, and that BIL would never actually sexually assault me.

Now my husband is one of those men who's read all the feminist theorists and is on the board of this local "Men Against Rape Culture" group. So I called him on the misogynist apologist nonsense and he said, "Well, I love my brother and I won't stop spending time with him."

Now, BIL's behaviour is BIL's problem. Husband isn't responsible for him.

However, here's what I can't get past: Husband says he's resigned to "my difficulty with BIL" and has told a close friend that the trip wasn't great because "BIL and matildamatilda had a spat."

Whereas, the fact is that I don't like being sexually harassed, because I'm normal.

TL;DR-- Don't see how I can stay married to someone who thinks sexually harassment is okay.

I'm glad you are going to spend less time with him, and you are going to tell BIL why, right? In the same conversation, you could tell him you detest the way he treats his wife. That it is very unpleasant to be around.

Just for kicks, maybe you three could verbally abuse him with every statement as he does to his poor wife. See how he likes that!

He can't tell his older brother that his behaviour is unacceptable because he loves him and wants to still see him

Can we never tell our loved ones that their behaviour is unacceptable then?

Btw has your DH tried any counselling for his own issues, or assertiveness training to help him act in direct interpersonal situations (rather than theoretical ones)?

(I'm all for introspection in its place, with a purpose, just not as an end in itself or masquerading as political action). Could help relieve his burden and make him feel empowered personally?

You might like to have a read of this thread to get some insight into why your SIL stays with him.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1949180-Problems-of-challenging-the-beliefs-of-older-women

The massive age difference makes it hard to talk to his wife. I don't know, can you spend time with just her? Coffee, that kind of thing. Build up a supportive relationship? Would you even want to? Sounds harsh but you need to want to. TBH, I don't know if I would, its kind of inserting yourself into her life and then also, by default, your BILS.
The only person here that can make a difference is your DH. I hope you manage to get past this, talk with your DH, resolve the negative feelings you have. These are understandable, I would feel the same if my DH stood by and let his siblings mistreat others like this.

Fairenuff, you have completely misunderstood that comment -that is how the OP's DH feels, not what he should or shouldn't do!

Sorry, but your DH can tackle his brother's behaviour, he just chooses not to. Instead he does the classic thing of blaming the victim.

I don't mean that you come across as 'a victim', but that you are being handed responsibility where you shouldn't have been.

Admittedly it's a slightly different case, in that I was a child (15), but when I told my mother that her father was sexually abusing me, part of her response was 'well, he doesn't get any sex, and he has a high sex drive, and it's more normal for a man of his age to just get it where he thinks he can find it most easily, you have to understand that'. Took me years of therapy to get past that!

I think you are utterly justified in feeling v let down by your husband, OP. I hope you can talk to him about it.

Oh, and she 'couldn't' tackle his behaviour either. We very nearly lost contact altogether over that.

Ugh - this man sounds EXACTLY like a man my Grannie was friendly with.

He would try and kiss women on the lips. When I was fourteen, he said I looked good enough to be raped . Yes, he actually said that. When I objected, he said he had paid me a high compliment.

I think you handled the situation. Your dh, however, needs to support you more.

Hiya OP I have a comparable situation - pervy wrongly flirty FiL. My husband will now never let me be on my own with him, apologises in front of him if he says anything yuck, and glares at him like he is a pestilent worm.

But - the scenario is different - my H's father left when he was 5, remarried someone he didn't treat very well, and they've always had a difficult relationship. So he has his own reasons to be angry with him, there's no filial pedestal as there is in your case.

I must say though that what your husband says about the generation of men in their 70s is bollocks. My father is 76, he's a total gentleman and so are all his friends, probably more so than my own generation.

Personally I would sit your husband down and tell him he's got this one wrong from start to finish. And you simply won't spend time with BiL if he's not willing to understand the dynamic.

Thanks Twinklestein. Of course I agree about the 70s generation, it's just a handy excuse. Pervs get old too.

Sorry to hear about the sexual abuse Pawprint and Humpty. It's astonishing what people get away with.

I guess no matter how much your husband sympathises with feminism, never having been on the receiving end of this kind of sexual harassment creates a blind-spot.

When you said he's in his 70s, the first person I thought of was my uncle who's 70, who is perfectly polite. Someone who is in their 70s was a teenager/20-something in the 60s, so hardly grew up in a sexually repressed era. Saying "he's from a different generation" doesn't really work anymore, although not that it ever was an excuse, but you know what I mean.

I agree you should tell him to bring it up as an "example" to the people his women's rights groups. He doesn't have to admit it's him involved, just say it happened to someone he knows and see what they say. He may realise when he hears it from someone else.

Thing is what he said isn't actually that bad and if someone else had said it you wouldn probably take it in the way it was intended. Older blokes often have that slightly pervy sense of humour with women.

I can't bear my own bil so I don't see him (unless it's unavoidable such as weddings, large family dos) so my dh sees him without me
Not a major problem. It only becomes a problem if it casues issues between you and your dh. You just remember that no matter what your feelings he is your dh's brother and he loves him

Just agree to disagree and minimise your own involvement

Thanks all for the thoughtful comments (except maddy68! If you don't think what he said was "that bad" then you're in over your head.)

I just came back from a swim and read all these thoughtful remarks and I feel much better. As far as sexual harassment situations go, at least this isn't the boss in my dream job or someone else unavoidable. I don't really ever have to see his mug again, do I?
Thanks again.

if somebody else had said it you would probably take it in the way it was intended Really?

If I was in the middle of an anecdote and somebody told me that my legs were 'sexy' and that 'we all secretly' want to brush up against them, I would take it as everyday sexism to say the least. I might not confront the person, but I would not be laughing or thinking it was a compliment. More likely to be thinking that man is a misogynistic idiot.

Cross posts. Glad you are feeling better about it all matilda.

It sounds like they have all been brainwashed into accepting his behavior so much that they don't even recognize it. It will be very hard to change that. Probably your dh will see it when away from the situation, but not in the actual moment. You may need to wait then raise it again , or ask I one of his group members came up with the situation how would he react ?

And there was definitely a culture among that age group of constantly complimenting women in that kid if sexual Pervy way. Think Benny Hill. Women are supposed to appreciate that they have been noticed.

I thought the same as maddy68, TBH. Unpleasant, but not marriage-wreckingly awful. I also thought your initial reply was also open to misinterpretation (i.e. referring the male dancer rather than BIL) so I'm not surprised that your BIL was able to ignore it.

I think your solution - let DH visit BIL alone; ask your DH to debate the point at his group - are best.

You see this man once a year?

I really don't need sexual harassment explained to me thanks. I've seen Benny Hill and heard the compliment nonsense before.

Plenty of men of that generation also chose to have empathy and decency rather than believe the hype.

I'll go offline now so the "sexual harassment is not that bad" crowd can take over.

Thanks again for the supportive and thoughtful comments earlier, they've made a big difference to me and I feel more at peace.

He's a pathetic creep. Age and class -no excuse. He should be told.

I'm not saying sexual harassment isn't that bad, nor that what your BIL said was anything other than sexual harassment.

I am saying that it's not worth spoiling what otherwise sounds like a good marriage over someone you (used to) see once a year.

I am also saying that your DH is caught up in all of the complexities of a difficult sibling relationship - it's not surprising if he finds it difficult to see the wood for the trees.