I think I really may have to leave dh

[ThinkingOfLeaving]

I am a regular poster who has name changed, please don't out me.

Dh and I have been together over 13 years and have 3 dc, he works reduced hours and is the main carer and does most of the household chores etc.

The problem for me is that he just incapable of showing me any care, he never asks how I am, if I'm upset he ignores it, he asked why I couldn't sleep last night and I told him it was because I'm miserable - that was the end of the conservation. It's been like this for years but I only realised about 3 years ago just how very alone I was and tbh it just feels like daily rejection of who I am.

If I live it will mean me going into shared accommodation and being pretty broke. Property is far too expensive to sell the house or anything like that. I worry how I will be able to maintain any sort of decent relationship with the dc if I move out especially as they won't be able to stay with me.

I feel my choices are freedom and the hope of hapiness but broke or staying and having an ok lifestyle but being alone and lonely. I can't even work out what is best for the dc - for them to model their future relationships on this marriage or have to come to terms with their mother leaving them.

Also the whole society thing, a failed 2nd marriage and a mother leaving her dc behind - just how much more shit will that make me feel about myself.

I asked dh to consider going back to a counsellor to see if we could make our marriage work and for each of us to sort ourselves out. After 10 days I asked him what he had decided and he said he would go and that if I was willing to try so was he. Well that was months ago and he hasn't even rang to make an appointment, I don't think he ever will.

I am no contact with my family, we have no family friends, dh has no friends and won't risk trying to make any and I only have a few friends none of whom are local.

I suppose I'd just like some advice and to be able to talk about how I'm feeling and what I think to help me make a decision.

I would follow up the counselling thing. It sounds as if both of you may be depressed.

I have suffered from depression for a long time and am currently in therapy. He is depressed but refuses to do anything about it and is happy enough in our lifestyle - although he is not happy with me. There is no incentive for him to change he has his pastimes and hobbies.

Can you make an appointment with your therapist? I know MN is supportive but if you are both living with serious depression I don't think a thread telling you to LTB is going to be helpful. Whatever you decide about that relationship, getting better has to be the main priority. If you can't help him, help yourself first.

But as he did agree to counselling, I would make that appointment for him without the option. It's a start....

This is my experience and it may or may not be helpful to you;

I left a relationship for similar lack of interest in my feelings recently. We are sharing the house although he now sleeps in a bedsit across the road and I have our old bedroom. He's there for breakfast and tea and bedtime on weekdays and there all day at weekends and holidays. He slept on the floor on Xmas eve to be there for Xmas morning.

I am a SAHM but this arrangement (though I was warned against it as people thought it would be confusing for the children) has worked well because I found I had no feelings left and so there was no animosity from my side. He had/has many bad feelings but is very repressed and so they don't often come out. The children don't seem confused and have had the normal sad feelings and wishing for is to get back together.

I'm in another relationship, I think that has helped to really establish it is over between us for everyone involved - he buried his head and was wilfully blind to my unhappiness when we were together but wouldn't accept me wanting to split up initially and thought he could try to fix it. I felt I'd endured years of emotional neglect I suppose and nothing could rescue it.

I think it is important to separate your relationship with each other from your joint parenting responsibilities. I think maybe you should book the counselling and use it either to discuss fixing the relationship or handling the break up kindly.

I'm not intending to make a final decision for several months, probably around a year into my therapy.

My gut instinct is that he doesn't want to change, he is too afraid. We saw a couples counsellor a few years ago who was very good. He wouldn't do any of the things she said it is like he refuses to take on any responsibility for the emotional health of our relationship. A simple example is not knowing what to buy me for my birthday so he doesn't bother even though he knows that will hurt my feelings.

This marriage has recreated the dynamics of my childhood. I am hurting very much and it is completely ignored by the person who supposidly loves me. Even when I tell him, or tell him what I want - "if I'm crying you could give me a cuddle".

I think some of it is guilt because he takes on things as being his fault when they are not. I just don't see how the dynamic will change.

I did say a few months ago that I was prepared to spend the rest of my life living like this but that hasn't given him the incentive to book the counsellor.

I'm not sure your therapy will be much use if you're still living in such an unhappy situation.

What would happen if you booked the counselling?

Why haven't you booked the counsellor?

I don't know who he used to see and I actually want him to take on the resonsibility of doing something for himself.

I don't want to have a marriage where all the caring, nurturing etc. is left to me to do - because that is what it is at the moment IYSWIM. If he doesn't want to do counselling then I can't make him. If it's too much effort for him to phone someone who he has seen before and make an appointment then to me that says everything about his attitude to improving the situation - he just isn't bothered.

cutting your nose off to spite your face? Don't do that when your marriage and happiness are at stake. I know you want him to try but when neither of you are you will get nothing other than what you are now.

I am trying though [conused], I've been through loads of meds to find one that helps me, I've pursued therapy, I attend. I've explained what I want, I've forgiven for being incredibly cruel and hurtful to me.

What should I do just nag nag nag until he says he's booked an appointment? I've brought up the subject recently and asked him whether he'd made an appointment and there's been a bit of a U turn in that he's now not sure that he's going to go.

Have you said if he doesn't book by the end of the week (or your time span) then you will be filing for divorce (if that is your consequence)? If he sees life carrying on before why would he do something hard if there are no consequences for not doing so?

Just book someone yourself. Explain that if he doesn't want to use it to fix the relationship because the communication is so bad you need it to sort out the split.

I don't want to do anymore joint relationship counselling at the moment. I want him to go for counselling so he can work out what he wants, in terms of being with me, remaining insular/friendless. I suppose whilst I'm in therapy I thought he could do some counselling and at the end of it we would both be in a better place to make it work or go our seperate ways.

I just think he isn't that bothered about me at all which just compounds the rejection and loneliness I feel. I really just have no-one, no-one I can ring for a chat, to say I've had a bad day.

I don't want to be accused of bullying him into going, that is how it feels if I issue a deadline. I suppose I feel that everyone sees him as a lovely guy and great Dad and I'm the difficult cow to live with but they don't see how apathetic he is? If he genuinely doesn't want to bother than I feel has he really made the decision already and we would be wasting his time and our money going through the motions and for what?

On a day to day basis we co-exist and co-parent fine there is just no intimacy of any kind.

That's what everyone thinks about me. That I'm the complete bitch who intimidates her poor nice h and who flounced off for no reason at all from a lovely stable guy.

The reality is these people who are happy to not communicate and who stone wall you and don't consider you will drive you into mental illness. It was when I was frequently desperate and suicidal I realised it was crunch time.

You need to face facts. He is ok at and experienced in not communicating and repressing his feelings, he is happier to do that than to deal with confrontation or sharing. He will never change. He is happy to continue how things are.

You however are not. This is not about getting him to do anything, that is simply not going to happen and you need to let that idea go.

This must be about you and what you need. Yes, people will judge you for leaving. It is none of their business and you need to develop a thick skin. You will probably be surprised how many are supportive in different ways.

What you need to do is have a way of communicating effectively about the children.

You're flogging a dead horse, if you leave it up to him things will never change.

You are saying what I think I know deep down but it's so hard. I keep thinking perhaps I can learn to be okay in a non-supportive marriage I can somehow learn to cope with being on my own yet not on my own

If I leave then I will still be on my own and alone so will I really be any happier or will it just be the same only I'll be broke too?

I feel like I have completely and utterly failed as a parent, I realise in hindsight I shouldn't have had them because I wasn't in the right emotional place to bring them up and they are going to suffer the consequences of my selfishness

Children don't suffer from a relationship breakdown per se but from the tension, animosity and instability. Whether you stay together or split up dealing healthily with feelings, reducing tension, being calm and productive and civil and providing emotional and physical stability will mean your children won't suffer. And there is a difference between stability and the status quo.

This relationship will end eventually.

You will have to be the one who ends it because he won't.

You will get the stick and he'll play the victim most likely but you will need to let it wash over you. What matters is how you feel about your relationship not what other people think you should feel.

Some people will be surprisingly supportive.

You will be able to benefit from the therapy you are having.

I understand the feeling of really wanting to be sure you've done everything but you can never be sure. At some stage you will need to make the choice to end it without being sure. That's the problem with a brick wall, no answer could be any answer, you are forced to make all the choices and guess all the feelings.

Obviously I am not alone strictly because I've started seeing someone new but day to day I am alone. It is absolutely divine. Now I only have to worry about what he is thinking/feeling in relation to the children which in reality means a stressful period once every couple of weeks where communication is necessary but not happening. Before we split my whole life was constantly on edge trying to guess and compensate for his feelings, trying to get him to notice and acknowledge how bad I was feeling and make some effort to consider me/be an equal partner in the emotional work.

Also now he takes much more responsibility for the dc (remember our roles are reversed and this could be you) because obviously we try to maintain some separation from each other and he is at work most of the time so previous family times often are divided between us. It is so much easier. Since we split I have grown surer and surer it was the right decision.

But that's my life, you need to make your own choice. Please make it based on how much you feel you can/should take of this and not based on whether you think there is a chance he'll change.

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm not going to make any hasty decisions because I need to progress through therapy first to know my self better. I think we have both emotionally checked out of the marriage but I don't think he will be prepared to check back in although I would be.

At least I have therapy to help me through the decision. I did mention to my therapist a while ago that I had mentioned that I'd sort of issued the ultimatum and felt that was a good thing because it meant I had some fight left in me. I guess to an extent I have spent 3 years trying to come to terms with accepting that he abandoned me and just well resigned to the situation of not being important to anyone apart from my dc - it's been awful, that knowledge that you could just drop dead and no-one would miss you.

I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the amount of help therapy might provide you with. My guess is therapy to improve your self respect would be greatly helpful but when the source of the destruction of your self respect is still active it may be fighting against the tide.

Maybe it would be helpful to try and improve your life outside the relationship as well as having therapy? Maybe get a hobby? I find I make friends really quickly just taking myself off to the pub on my own with a good book and having a chat with whoever is there. If you feel too unconfident reading the book is nice and normally IME gives people a reason to approach you, then all you need to do is chat back, normally about the book to start with.

I don't think you are being hasty if it has been years.

Unfortunately for me my unhappiness began shortly after the wedding. Gradually got worse, the last two years were particularly bad. I left just short of one year after my ultimatum. Not having been hasty is a source of comfort but so is not sacrificing myself to the relationship and getting out before I lost myself to it.

I guess I'm hoping that therapy will help me identify how much it is the relationship is the issue and how much is other crap that I've been through in life. There was a time when we were very supportive of one another so he is able but I think gave up/witdrew/detached and he finds that easier.

When I'm well I'm happy to go out and about make the effort with more distant friends etc. but when life gets hard I just withdraw. I haven't been able to think of a single hobby that I want to pursue. I took up a previous hobby but it was just too difficult because I'm neither single or with my dh.

For over a year I worked away for several days per month and I loved it - says it all really. However that is just escapism the reality of actually splitting up, moving out and leaving my dc is harsh and painful. I've been there before so I'm frightened of experiencing it again and where that will leave me.

A few of the people I work with have marriages where their hsubands don't seem to do emotional input but it doesn't seem to bother them so then I end up thinking it's me and my expectations are unrealistic? However they seem to have had happy/normal childhoods and get lots of support from parents.

I suppose I just never know how much of it is that I'm not well and perhaps I never will be. When I returned to work out of my safe role of mother and wife and lots of regular contact with people that I liked/were nice/kind I just ended up a complete mess - dh could see it happening but just ignored it. He has apologised profusely for ignoring it but I can't see that he's changed he continues to be an ostrich.

Anyhow lots to talk about at therapy and get reflection from the others at perhaps how realistic my expections are (or not). Perhaps dh is at the end of the road with me, he is putting himself first but perhaps that is what he needs to do to cope with life and perhaps what I need to do is to leave

Please don't judge yourself by your perception of other people's relationships/expectations.

What you need to work out is what are your basic needs. What someone else thinks about whether they are reasonable or not is irrelevant. Those are your needs and you'll still need them whether or not someone else thinks they are important.

I am perhaps similar in that I am told I have high expectations; of respect, communication etc and I am principled so expect honesty etc (obviously with great respect for personal privacy).

I also have come from a difficult childhood and through some abusive relationships. It may be correct to suggest that these have formed my expectations.

However having reflected on this recently in relation to my new relationship I don't think my expectations are objectively unreasonable.

Unfortunately, I really believe we live in a very sexist society and what are considered basic expectations by a man; not being treated as second class, being treated with respect, a partner maintaining adequate boundaries in personal relationships, not being taken for granted, being treated with consideration, not being subjected to constant sexist comments/behaviour are unfortunately considered high expectations when demanded by a woman.

I am aware I might well be projecting my own experience across a whole gender's behaviour but my experience is that men have been generally happy to take my consideration, respect, care and love without feeling they need to actively return it, and often without understanding that they are not returning it when they are late, uncommunicative, make joint decisions individually, don't listen and make or fail to challenge sexist comments/behaviour etc.

I respect when people acknowledge their failures, when they say they understand how any of the above is not respectful etc but if nothing changes it feels like lip service. There's a point when you have to take action to stop the cycle.

My bf recently told me that me being upset by him treating me like filler in his life when he had nothing better to do was not reasonable and he intimated I'm crazy for expecting he plan to see me, let me know when he's coming, come when he says he will and not come when he is not invited. He thinks I am demanding an unreasonable level of certainty and communication. I just have four children and need to know whether he is going to be there in the morning or not in advance and also want to exist in his life as a person not a way to spend the time he has not filled up with things he wants to do.

I hope he now accepts my quite angry reaction that he can't tell me what I should be allowed to need, he can only decide whether he wants to be with me knowing that's what I need from a partner.

Quite long winded but I hope you get my point. You need to be asserting your right to have your needs met.

How old are your DC and how is your husband with them?

Our dc are 9, 10 & 12. I have an older one who is 17 but she has lived with her dad for the last 4 years.

He is fine with them. I think he emotionally invests in them to some extent and is affectionate with them. It may be easier if you ask me specific questions as to how he is with them.

I struggle to understand why my dc tell me stuff about their lives because as a child I told my parents absolutely nothing and they never asked - just as my marriage has turned out...

You do sound quite depressed. (I'm not so sure about your DH, if he's happy with how things are, and is still pursuing hobbies and pastimes. But I'm no expert.)

Anyone would feel depressed, though, if they were in a supposedly close relationship with someone who didn't care if they were happy or sad. What is love, if it isn't caring about the wellbeing of someone close, or being interested in them, and how their day has been? What's the point of a relationship if one party doesn't care about the other?

This is a rhetorical question really. I'm just sorry that you're wondering about realistic expectations in these circumstances.

To feel there's no-one you can chat to if you've had a bad day is sad when you live alone; but I imagine it's devastating if you're in a marriage.

I do have depression I just can't work out if dh doesn't want to deal with me because I'm depressed or whether his refusal to deal with me is making me depressed.

There was a good few years where I was really happy and then it all sort of blew up and he absolutely wasn't there for me and shut himself off from me because he was struggling with stuff. So I would be asking him what was wrong and he would tell me nothing - this went on for over a year and tbh it pretty much sent me over the edge, thought I was going insane because I thought I was imagining things.