DW cannot make up her mind to stay or Go

[Objectiveman]

We are married over 25 years. Just before Christmas there was an incident that I over reacted to. I was being a jealous husband thinking someone was attempting an affair with my wife. He had been Facebooking and phone txting her. I found out and did things like sending him warnings to stay away, stop txting, I would inform his wife etc: I found out all his social sites and where he worked - I was back in Caveman mode protecting his mate.
My DW has now seen a side of me she did not know existed and it has shocked her. She feels I acted most inappropriately - yet i felt it was a normal MALE reaction. Reverting to caveman mode and protecting your mate from potential other suitors.
Now my DW does not know if she wants to stay or go. She sees this incident as another disapointment in our marriage - It's not been perfect as I'm a stubborn person.
The stay of go she claims is NOT to be with this other person and I do believe that.
It's possibly the straw that broke the camels back.
Needless to say she has bee relatively cold to me since the incident, we talk but at more of a social level.
She shares EVERYTHING we discuss with her close friends and asks them for advise - One says leave - One says think carefully and make up your own mind.
So for most of December I was left hanging with no decision if I was in or out of a marriage - and it's driving me insane.
Christmas was dreadful for the family with me in a depressed mood.
I've also know I've become very clingy.
I've made my comments on why we should stay together and have tried to give her space to work her decision out.
I've made many silly comments like, perhaps you should move out till your sure, or you can sleep in the spare bed, but i have always later apologised and withdrawn my comments. I feel I'm grasping at straws to keep her.
I am taking counselling as is she.
I'm now deciding if I should move out to a bedsit to give her space to come to a conclusion. - But I don't know if thats a good idea either.
WE have talked about this and she continues to bring up those times in the past when I hurt her emotionally. All I can do is agree and apologise, commenting that perhaps with this counselling I can address those emotional issues I have, that give rise to that past behaviour.
I respect her recalling those past times - but I feel she is ignoring the good times. The fact she only tells her friends about the bad times i feel make them seem more important and larger in the marriage.
Oh - What am I to do ?
She 50-ish, struggles with low self esteem and is menopausal if that is important.

You say you are both in counselling. Are you in couples counselling as well? If not, would you and she be willing to go, via Relate or something? And are you honestly willing to work on your stubbornness? Because that is a very difficult trait to live with. If you feel this episode (and you are not a caveman by the way ) has been an eye-opening moment and you are ready to change your ways tell her that.

If she's willing to go to counselling I would imagine the counsellor will ask her if she's willing to stop telling all the details of your marriage to her friends as that's not the behaviour of someone who wants to stay married, if she decides that she does.

Her age and menopausal status are not relevant. Ae you doing anything to help with her self-esteem, or at least not undermining her in any way?

Could you elaborate on the 'emotional issues' you have? Honestly, if you've had them for 25 years and have only now sought counselling, it may well be too little, too late.

That's ^ probably the nicest reply you'll get. Prepare yourself.

You probably should have missed out the silly caveman and male comments - you've done yourself no favours I'm afraid.

You can only plead your case, but if I were you I really wouldn't be putting up with this not deciding whether to leave or not. If my DP said he couldn't decide I'd tell him to leave myself if it's that hard of a decision for him.

So basically you have told your wife you don't trust her. Another chap shows an interest & instead of letting your wife deal with it you go all OTT & find out where he works & his social network sites? Seriously? Surely your wife would have told him no.

Also the times in the past when you hurt her emotionally? They are having more of an effect on her than you think & its not a case of glossing over them & remembering the good times. You are trying to get her to move past those incidents quickly because you don't like them & they are clearly more important to her than you & yes, they are large in your marriage. For her.

Your marriage is having a crisis point OP & tbh its your wife's decision at this point whether she leaves or whether she stays. I don't think you can do anything until she has her path clear in her mind.

DW is in Relate counselling on her own, not yet ready for me to be there too. WE are also both attending separate Private healthcare counselling. She states it's normal for girls to share this level of detail with their friends.
My emotional issues stem from an unloved and abusive childhood - means while I can discuss emotional or issues about feelings - I try to avoid them. I suppose I'm somewhat cold in that sense
I love her dearly and do not want to set an ultimatum - but the waiting is driving me insane.
I want to work to save this marriage. 2 months ago we were the Happiest we had ever been - like two teenagers in love etc : it was all there.
I have not told my wife I do not trust her - But I have said my trust in her has been damaged. I have the willingness to offer that trust back - but that can only be with time and bit by bit. I'm also not glossing over the issues in the past. We have discussed them and I have ( despite it being difficult for me ) revealed to her my difficult childhood ( which I had never previously told her about - because I had not wanted to reflect back to that time) I hoped my revealing of this information would not excuse my past behaviour, but at least let her understand why I behaved under certain circumstances.
MY wife found this new interest FUN, FLIRTY and SEXY and was happy for it to occur - she believed it would not lead to anything as they both stated they were married.

'Have shown willingness to gain the trust back' ?

She hasn't done anything though has she?

You claim you know you were ott and out of order, then you say this^^
I think you've given her a much harder time over this than you're saying.

Although I do agree she should tell you what she wants, maybe she needs time to herself?

The caveman comments are stupid.

The contacting the other guy is quite a normal reaction if the messages were flirty/ inappropriate but by your wives reaction perhaps she saw it as very controlling? Was he genuinely just a platonic friend do you think? Have you controlled her in other ways?

Her leaving you hanging isn't very fair. Your request that she leaves until she knows or moves to the spare room isn't out of order in my opinion- she can't leave you hanging forever.

What emotional issues and 'bad times' have their been?? Why would this be the straw that broke the camels back?

Ok- sorry I see you said your wife found the man fun, flirty and sexy. Has she told you this? Are these her words, or your take on it??

TBH I think I would be peeved if another person was facebooking & texting my dh. I'm not sure I agree with your wife's reponse either bit OTT unless she's hiding something, shes been caught out doing something she shouldn't have & trying to blame you for possible marriage break up really not ok & Id be letting her know that.

As for this other person shes obviously turning to him because your marriage is not that great, acknowdledge that & let her know you want to wirk on those issues possibly with help of marriage counsellor.

Was she replying to the messages?

DW acknowledges she deliberately hid the TXT messaging from me and has said it was wrong - she accept full responsibility that it was wrong.
Did I give here hard time over it - probably yes - too many tears - too much "how could you deliberately hide this from me". DW was the one that asked for the phone numbers. They new each other years ago and he fancied her.
Yes I believe she thought my reaction may of been controlling. NO I do not control DW ( deliberately) in any other way. DW is free to do as she wishes and is normally a very caring, noble and trusting person.
" Fun, Flirty and an aphrodesiac" were her words.
While I saw the FB messages and some were a bit flirty - I saw none of the TXT messages but I know they were from early morning to late at night on BOTH her phones.
DW is normally the most trustworthy person I know - this is so out of character.
I still do not know- should I move out to give her time to think.
I think I should also contact Relate for counselling for me.

What you have done is what any woman would have done in the same situation. I have seen women here being encouraged to check emails and text messages because they were suspicious. I have seen women encouraging others here to ask the guy to leave if he's not sure he wants to continue the marriage. It's obvious your marriage has not been without problems, but both are seeking help so it seems. I do think that your wife is overreacting and is leaving you in doubt for a long time. She is the one who was in a flirty chat with a married man while married herself, she is wrong and has no right to be angry with you for your response. I personally think she should move out while making up her mind. And make up her mind soon, this is not fair to you.

So basically she was having an emotional affair but has turned it round to make you seem the bad guy? With regards to leaving, sounds like she wants to move in with the other man but he's dragging his heels...

There is a book called 'Too Good To Leave, Too Bad To Stay'. I found some of it rather gushing and over-emotional, but overall very helpful.

I would recommend it to you both.

Think you caught this before it turned into an affair personally. Which is a good thing. She's obviously been thinking about leaving. Counselling is the best way forward for now. You need to try and be patient.

If I suspected that my DH was flirting with another man than I suspect I would acted the same way as you OP and I'm certain my DH would do the same if the tables were turned.

I think that your reaction to the flirting is not the issue here and your wife making a fuss about it may be a bit of a red herring.

You say that there have been issues in the marriage so could it be that your wife is looking for a way out?

That might explain why she is overly focussing on your (in my opinion, perfectly understandable) reactions

While I think your way of handling your wife's emotional affair were a bit OTT, I can't say I blame you for them.

You know, men and women only do things differently because we are socialised to do so, not because we are so very different.

I suggest you post again, without all the "caveman" crap, about your wife's emotional affair with this man, and you would get very different responses.

The way i see it is that your wife has had an emotional affair, and you are the one running around trying to make it all better.

You are the wronged party here!

I know first hand about how hard it is to live with someone abused ion childhood, and it's not bloody easy. But having an emotional affair is not the answer.

I agree with a PP who said separate rooms, or her moving out could be the best thing. She needs to give you some space to work out how you feel, and needs to start taking some blame for what went wrong!

DW claims it was not an emotional affair - it was "Just some Fun and would not of gone anywhere as they were both married" . Although I know she has checked out his Facebook page a few times since.
I could be that this is an excuse to leave the marriage based on its history. By that I DO NOT MEAN it has been bad. It's just ( I suppose like any other marriage ) there have bad eposides - most probably arising from my moody behaviour because I stomp off in a bad mood instead of calmly sitting and discussing and issues that arise. ( I see that now as the counsllor linked my childhood issues to how I deal with issues as an adult )
I know if Ii say to DW "GO" she will go and that WILL be the end. DW may have low self esteem - but she does have a strong will ( sounds like a conflict in those descriptions ) She would just move out and "Get on with life" - So that leads me to the question - Do I move out - keep her in the family home with the adult children ( Who I believe should be with her - wherever she is as that would be more emotionally stable for them )
Or will moving out simply show she can live without me.
Stay or Go ?

Yes-
Sounds like she's being defensive and that there could be more.

I'd ask her to leave until she's sure.

So she is trying to minimise what she she has done and also trying to turn the focus onto you by criticising YOUR reactions?

She sounds very controlling OP.

Rather than waiting for her to decide what SHE wants to do, I think it should be YOU deciding what happens next.

Take back some of the control. If she is threatening to leave then let her.

I don't see why you should be the one to leave and your adult DC's can take care of themselves!

DW is not threatening to leave.
She is sitting on the fence. She cannot make up[ her mind.
One day it's "I'm better off making a new life on my own"
Next day its" We have shared so much over 31 years - too much to throw away"
Meantime it's eating me alive with torment.
Only peace I get is when I eventually get to sleep and then it's only for a few hours.

If your dw would say its over if you asked her to leave then that's your answer.

Take Control back op. decide what YOU want. To Meir sounds like she started an emotional affair...what would have happened if you hadnt discovered it?

I'd be prepared to find out a whole more than a few flirty texts. Has she been completely open and shown you all texts, emails etc? Have there been incidents that have raised an eyebrow, not being said she was type of scenario, overnight stays, more nights out?

She's annoying me! I think if you force her to make a decision, she'll cave in and stay. I don't think for one minute that she'd waltz off and create a new life as effortlessly as you assume.

When we love people we overestimate their ability to get along without us. You've put her up on a pedestal.

Gather your courage, take a deep breath and tell her that you refuse to wait around for her to make a decision. She either bucks up and commits to staying with you, or packs her things and leaves today.

The truth is, if you split up, you'll be besieged by new women hurling themselves at you (newly divorced men over 45 are in hot demand) and she'll most likely be left out in the cold. Don't forget that!

If you act like you are quite willing to make a new life without her hanging around being wet, you'll be a lot more desirable than if you put up with her messing you around.