Housetraining... evolution of a husband...

[LemonDrizzleCake11]

Just thought I'd post a random musing I had regarding my husband's slow improvement in helping with housework to see if anyone is able to offer further hope for the future.

I was just thinking about laundry shows how riveting my life is

So in the first year of our marriage, when I asked Mr LemonDrizzleCake to help more with the laundry, he started putting the majority rather than the minority of his washing into the washing basket, as opposed to leaving it on the floor.

In the second year of marriage, the same request resulted in him starting to put loads of washing into the machine and starting a cycle. But not actually taking it out.

In the third year, a repeated plea for more help with the laundry yielded him discovering the ability to hang washing out on the airer after putting it through the machine.

In our fourth year of marriage, yet another discussion regarding laundry led to him discovering the ability to wash clothes, hang them on airer AND throw fold them into the washing basket again when dry.

Now into our fifth year of marriage my weekly laundry nag our periodic gentle discussion about laundry has helped him progress to putting clothes in the machine, taking them out and hanging them up, putting them in the basket once dry AND carrying the basket back upstairs.

With this stonking rate of evolution, I'm hopeful that in our sixth year of marriage he may manage to start putting the washing away afterwards.

Then maybe I could start working on other housetraining, such as how the bathroom does not self-clean, the hoover is not actually an independent being and important bits of paper sadly cannot self-file.

I'd love to hear others evolution stories!

My DP is inherently lazy. When we first lived together as teenagers he didn't do much, out of sheer laziness. I used to just cry at him but still kept doing everything.

Things changed. He's currently off for two weeks over Xmas. I haven't been wailing and begging him to help. Or asking. Or patronising him. I've simply expected. "DP are you doing the kitchen tonight or the kids bath?" - I expect him to do one or the other so we can sit down together. He might roll his eyes a bit sometimes when he's tired but I roll mine when I'm tired. He still does it, knows he needs to do it.

We did have to ease into living together though. He was studying for a degree and working a night shift so was pretty knackered all the time. He therefore really didn't want to contribute. Some jobs were delegated to be "his". Once he did them automatically he did more. In the same way that I, as a teenager having just left home, would have cried if given a list of ten household chores to be done, but broken down into a few each day was manageable.

When he's back at work it does sometimes get difficult. I'm exhausted from a day with two small kids, no car, walking everywhere. Equally he is in training for a professional role which means a normal workload which in his industry ATM means 8am -10pm some nights AND professional exams and studying. We can then come head to head about who should Hoover and wash up but I'm happy to suck it up if I know that I can have a nap the next day and he can't. It's working out what's equal taking into consideration work outside the home as well IMO. I don't find the childcare so exhausting that I need to divide everything in the home 50/50 knowing that DP would be getting home at 9pm for eg after a 2hr drive and then be expected to squeeze a load of housework around the studying he needed to do before he fell into bed. Not when I know I could have got it done in an hour before he got home.

It's all balance I think. If you asked DP to list the chores he does in a week as described above you may think that he's an arse and expects me to do everything. When I explained the work out side the home you may revise that opinion. However if he was coming home at 6pm and doing nothing then he would be an epic arse! It's all dependant on the specific circumstances I think.

AndWhoosh - I think the best way of working out whether the work is distributed fairly, is to calculate how much genuine leisure time each person has left over per day/ week/ month/ however you want to do it, once they have done all the domestic work, childcare, paid work.

If one person has far more leisure time than the other, then that is a serious imbalance. Doing fun stuff with the kids doesn't count - it's still childcare.

Yes I get that - although actually I get far more as I have every Saturday off. So from 9am until whenever I roll home (sometimes 8pm, sometimes midnight, sometimes I don't!). Then Sunday everything is split. So when you add it up for us, it's actually unbalanced towards DP. It doesn't feel like it til you actually add it all up though. I feel that things are fair here.

I must add that we agreed on that together before anyone says I, taking advantage etc. He goes out Friday nights, I go out on Saturdays. Works for us.

I agree with Jasmine's post

The bins he does, it was an example only - I am the one that continually piles stuff in a full bin as it happens.

But yes, he's said that it is not really conscious, but when he hears 'Can you...?' He doesn't hear 'Do it'.

We have a lot of conversations about domestic chores, but in an amicable way. He really doesn't have a clue, feels bad that he doesn't know how to do stuff which he accepts is basic and so we help each other to sort out the balance as much as we can by being clear of expectations from both us.

It's not my responsibility, it's a shared responsibility - I have higher standards for the house so have to accept that things are not always as quick/clean as I'd like, but he accepts that he does need help with things.

Conversations have helped as some of the 'not wanting to do it' has actually stemmed from him not knowing what to do. If I say 'please clean the bathroom while I'm out', in the past it wasn't done because he wouldn't admit to not knowing what to clean it with. He'd rather just avoid it than admit he was in his 30's and didn't have a clue. Now, I recognise that he doesn't actually know this stuff very well so I give him the cleaning stuff directly when asking - then he's happy and I'm happy.

I think men sometimes are confused by women's standards of hygiene. There are plenty of men my generation that thought bathrooms were self-cleaning before they were married.

I hope the generations following are much more equal in their domestic chores as they are in most things - having learned and followed parents setting good examples.

Mind you, reading through the blogs on Mumsnet blogging about gender pay gaps and Glosswitch's housekeeping post, am not sure...

BBE, 'gaslighting, contempt, silencing, neurotic' - quite strong notions and nothing like the dynamic that often exists over this issue. An excellent example of the usual hyperbole employed.

Love the idea that bathrooms might be self-cleaning. A perfect marketing opportunity. Not unlike self-cleaning ovens. I've never had one and am intrigued as to how they actually work. Anyone?

I'm probably more house-proud and self-conscious about this sort of thing than your average dude (not difficult ) but still wouldn't, and haven't, seen it as a threat to my self-respect IF the next Ms Pan was slattern of the decade. Been there as I said. As in most things, as Joe Jackson sang, 'its different for girls', but directly linking housework to respect and NOT checking that out in a potential partner is personally negligent. But we have these threads over and over.

Sorry missed out the 'the bins need emptying'....response - 'yes they do'. Like it's a mild observation on the state of the universe.

"An excellent example of the usual hyperbole employed."

Great dismissing technique Pan.

"directly linking housework to respect and NOT checking that out in a potential partner is personally negligent."

People don't directly link housework to respect. It's all extremely subliminal IMO and IME. Women know that a man who subconsciously believes they're a skivvy, while consciously embracing equality, is not respecting them. But it's rarely spelled out distinctly, because of the fog of the "housework is trivial and not worth spoiling a relationship about" narrative that usually surrounds this issue.

Also, you're right, we have these threads over and over again and it has been pointed out on numerous occasions that quite often a man's subconscious expectation of his wife being there to serve him, only comes into view once she becomes a mother. So the idea that women are personally negligent for not checking out that a man's subconscious prejudices might rise to the surface maybe 5 or 10 years down the line when for the first few years of their relationship he shows no sign of being such a neanderthal, has several times on here been pointed out as unreasonable, to say the least.

I personally think it is far more personally negligent to dump your shit on your partner, than not to realise 10 years in advance, that your partner might think he's entitled to dump his shit on you. But hey, that's the hyperbole talking.

Oh BBE it isn't dismissing, with respect. It's taking a contrary view. You know, like people do sometimes? You should get out more.

Crumbs, that thing about 'not realising until children come along' really does let the woman off the hook, doesn't it? No clues beforehand whatsoever? Not your best argument, if I may say.

With respect Pan, my DS wants the computer now so I'm not going to get into a discussion with you about why women should be held responsible for anticipating that the man who genuinely believes he is in favour of equality, will find that his subconscious expectations will rise to the surface in 10 years time, instead of the man being held responsible for examining his subconscious expectations.

How telling it is that you want to discuss why women should spot men's latent sexism, instead of discussing why men should address their latent sexism.

Bye for now,

tbh I didn't wish to get into a discussion with you at all, but there you were, quoting me, again. You do that a bit don't you, rather than addressing any general point?
As for the 'latent sexism' angle, it's still a 'get off for free, absolving you of exercising critical faculties' card.

I cant imagine (and hope never to have to) having a discussion with a person i was living with about who would empty the bins! Surely you (everyone?) just empties a bin when it's full or near full? i do find the idea of bins being one person's job quite ridiculous.

With respect, I experienced something like Basil describes. When I first met my now husband ten years ago he was the 'clean' one, the tidy one, the one who did the majority of the housework and cooking. I was a clueless slob. Over time I learnt, he taught me. Then before I knew it, I was married, pregnant and suddenly doing everything while he sat in front of the telly. How I got there I dont know and it got worse when I went on mat leave. Ive fought to get back from there but its harder to reset the balance than I ever thought possible. There were no red flags in that respect that I can remember.

This is a relationship that has other issues so is in no way 'normal' but it is possible for this to happen.

An interesting thread to read.

Nini* when you say you were a clueless slob, what were you clueless about? Where had you been living prior to living with DH? Im guessing you knew you needed to eat and wash yourself, your clothing and your environment?

"DH and I work on this more from both sides. So, I try to say 'Empty the bin when you've finished that please'. If I say 'could you empty the bin?', again he thinks 'yes, I can'. He doesn't empty the bin though cos it was the wrong question I asked."

But why do you have to say either? He must see the bloody bin needs emptying! Well, if he is an adult, fully functioning human being capable of holding don a job he must!

mine can put the washing in, more or less knows how much washing to put in. knows which part of the drawer the detergent goes. knows which progamme to put it on, but has to be supervised in case he fancies a 90 degree wash today and melts everrything. we have not yet progressed to getting the washing out of the machine, nor pouring his own detergent, nor hanging the washing in a manner that it will dry.

he also has the annoying habbit of climbing on my pile of clean washing and surfing off. and the other day threw his dirty pants into my clean laundry cupboard, making me an extra load.

I reckon on a good few years though to get him trained fully. he needs to grow a bit before he can do his own detergent.

I was a student when we met - knew nothing about anything household related. Shredded or shrunk most of my clothes by washing incorrectly, ate poorly so lost almost a third of my body weight and had to have regular apps with a nutritionist, stayed up all night so was exhausted, that kind of thing. I was ill-prepared for life outside the home. He wasnt and (lame as it sounds)dragged me up.

So you had been seeing a nutritionist so knew how to make healthy meals. You worked out you were doing something wrong with the washing machine and unless you were wearing shredded or shrunken clothes worked out how not to do it. I'm assuming you have seen tv and seen adverts or programmes with people mopping, ironing, hanging washing, hoovering etc. were you really that clueless upon moving in with DH that you were unable to do any of those things? Mopping is pretty easy to learn, hanging washing too. Cooking? Welll you were seeing a nutritionist.

Blackeyed-I'm guessing he's 2? Maybe 3?

What is the opposite of evolution? The honeymoon is well and truly over.

Yes i was that clueless, why is that so difficult to believe? Ppint is, I grew up quickly to learn how to do my share and he went in the opposite direction. It happens.

how were you that clueless though? Were you not understanding what the nutritionist was talking with you about? Were you just wearing dirty clothes again and again? Had you really no idea how to hold a mop?

Also, your DH didnt go in the opposite direction. He didnt become clueless did he? He became lazy and happy to let you do it.

Nini, it sounds a bit as if he was looking for a sort blank slate whom he could shape into a domestic goddess.

Aka a servant who would do the work for him in exactly the way he wanted it done!