DP finally going to GP about anger issues... advice needed.

[MoonshineWashingLine]

There is a lot of back story here but I will try and keep it as brief as I can. DP and I have a two year old DD, we had a fantastic relationship until DD was born but then not long after, he started having explosive anger problems. It came on very suddenly and has only gotten worse. He was always quite moody (but nothing i couldn't deal with), has been depressed when he was younger and has a lot of genuine family/upbringing issues. But i can not and will not deal with his angry, aggressive outbursts any more as he scares me and scares DD. I put it to him the other night, after a particularly bad episode, that he either gets help or we are through. He has a GP appointment Monday morning.

He has never hurt me physically but has threatened to 'push' me out of the room once. He always kicks or breaks objects rather than any violence towards me or DD. These episodes don't have any pattern, sometimes he will be fine for months and then suddenly have 3 in as many weeks. He is very unpredictable.

It's really tearing me apart as when things are good with us it's amazing, we have a great relationship 90% of the time and I truly do not understand why he can't control himself. What saddens me the most is when he does in front of our DD. I have been on the verge of asking him to leave a few times lately.

Has anyone every had a partner who has come out the other side after having had therapy? I think he really wants to stop it as he acknowledges he has a problem, he knows what he does is wrong and unacceptable. He has tried self help books but it's not achieved a permanent, lasting solution. Should I go to the GP with him or any therapy sessions? I've never had to deal with such things before so any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Moonshine and Cherry, My dad was like your partners. Hewould shout, kick and hit things. Many a broken door and glass pane in my house growing up.

He fucking terrified me, even though it was never directed at me, just my mum. I HATED him, but pretended that i loved him because I didnt want to make things worse. my mum stayed with him due to not wanting to break up the family, what a joke, the family was already broken just, by hima. I have a baby now and if my partner ever shows signs of behaviour similar to my dad he will be out the same day. I will not have my child growing up scared walking on egg shells and seeing their mother disrespected or thinking that its acceptable to behave like that to people. Your kids deserve better, your partners are responsible for themselves, get away before your children are left with these outbursts being the defining moments of their childhoods.

I must admit OP and cherry it's not sounding good. I have just separated from my P of 4.5 years (we have two young DCs together) because I just kept hoping the behaviour would change and it never did. I have lurked on the Relationships board a lot and you see the messages provided in this thread time and time again. These men never change and they just wear you down. The biggest proof I've had of that is since we've split up, my ex P appears to show still no willingness to change and is still angry and emotionally abusive. Hence I have no regrets (although believe you me it's bloody hard on my own with two kids). I've taken a lot of support from this board. Good luck OP.

Never, ever, ever, EVER go to joint therapy with this man, he'll use it to utterly bury you (they all do this!)

Please make sure that if you are ever forced into counselling, that you tell them he's abusive.

AMEN

Oh and he also did the anger management courses, self help books blah blah blah blah, none of it did a thing because ultimately he liked the power and control his anger gave him. You might think you are shielding them and they haven't noticed, thats what my mum thought but i noticed from a very young age.

Anger management courses just give them the vocab to bamboozle interested parties (i.e. courts, social workers) into thinking they are self aware and trying, if those bodies end up being involved.

Agree with SummerPlum 100%. This man does not like you. & the 'anger problems' thing is bullshit, or he'd have them with others too. He rages at you because he can get away with it. He wouldnt try it on with anyone else. It really, really annoys me when emotionally abusive men like this expect their partner to go to counselling with them. Why would you go to counselling with him, OP? You're not the one with 'issues' and what he will do is, use the info & tools given to him by counsellor to turn things around to being your fault. It wont be a case of you sitting there spelling out what's happened and expressing yourself, and that will somehow make it come right. You dont need to be there - all you have to do is, see if counselling is working; you will know that by whether he changes his actions towards you or not.

There's an organisation called RESPECT. Where men with anger management issues can go for advice and counselling. RESPECT will NOT treat men who have been emotionally and/or physically angry and abusive to their partners.

I worked with a guy who'd worked for them some years back. He said emotionally &/or physically abusive men would often self-refer, trying to use as a basis to tell their partners 'see? I referred myself so I AM trying to change'. These men would sit in an advice session & come up with numerous ways to justify why they treated their partners badly - no matter what counsellor said, they had an excuse and felt that as a man, counsellor should agree with them. The over-riding thing was, these men didn't want to change at all; but they were slyly fooling their partners into believing they intended to do so. RESPECT saw through these type of men very quickly. Seem to recall there's a page on their website about it. Makes interesting reading.there are some men who just don't respect women and never will.

I don't believe emotionally &/or physically abusive men ever change. They are bullies, picking on women and very often, children. The only thing you can do is get rid - sadly they'll just go on to find another victim.

I strongly believe that as women, we must protect ourselves. Know when a man does not like and respect you. There is absolutely no point in being tied by your love, or your circumstances. Stop making excuses for him, stop thinking 'where will he go?'(because believe me, he will survive). He was not born of you - you are not his saviour. He will survive. Its setting up a rotten life for yourself & DCs, if he remains. All for the sake of a man, who you will not die from the lack of.

I've been there - married to an emotional abuser in the past. Getting rid of him was the best thing I did. After we split I'd often have dreams he was still around, shouting directly into my face, shouting at the children, stamping around the house, banging and breaking things. But ohhh...that feeling when I woke up, thought for a split second dream was true, then that lovely realisation that it wasn't true and me, my home and my DDs were at peace..nothing beats that feeling...

Surely I should let him give therapy a go first though before chucking away years of our lives? I don't want my family to fall apart.

What does he want, though? He's the one breaking up the family. He's the one chucking away years of your lives with his behaviour.

You are only keeping yourself and the children safe from his behaviour when you leave.
If he won't leave, get legal help to keep him away.

I would advise you to go with him to the GP (not joint therapy, just going on the first appointment) if he's ok with it, and make sure he reports the threats and his angry behaviour in full.
It will be on record and you can probably use it if it goes to court.
Gather as much other evidence as possible. From friends, on texts, etc.
You can text him at work about all the issues, the reason for going to the gp and so on and keep all the conversation.

I was the one who first reported exH's suicide thoughts to a doctor, in one of his appointments. And, in the long run, it was a good thing.

Cherry and Moonshine - you need to get rid of your abusive partners for your children's sake.

Women's Aid is a good place to start.

I know hundreds of women that were in abusive relationships and got out some way or another.

NOT ONE of them ever (or would ever) regret leaving.

Being a lone parent is difficult sometimes, but it's LIGHTYEARS easier than being stuck in a home with a snarling, twisted, evil abuser; tearing your very soul to pieces and stripping every ounce of self confidence from you AND your children.

Get this man out of your lives TODAY (if poss) and start living free, and watch you beautiful DC start to blossom.

That's the best but, the thing that keeps you going is seeing how they start to thrive.

It's contagious! :)

It's a huge mistake to think you owe it to the past to sacrifice the present or the future. It's really important to live in the real, live present and see it for what it is.

It is also extremely important to focus again on you, not on 'the relationship'. 'You' are real, and here and now. 'The Relationship' without the real you is not real. If you have stopped being the real you and are instead a person who has adapted to the displays of aggression from your partner then the relationship is a shell.

Don't throw good after bad. The family is not an entity that exists apart from the individuals in it and unless it functions for everyone's welfare then it is a sham that does not deserve your loyalty.

When you speak of giving therapy a go or wanting your family to stay together you are getting close to the point of limited options. You can express that in terms of fairness to the relationship or fairness to the inner man who know is somewhere inside, but fundamentally what that sort of hope is is accepting the walls closing in around you.

It is also an expression of some hope within you that you are somehow special enough to him to make him change, if only you can come up with the right formula of words or some other perfect scenario that will make him see the light. Abuse is enabled when the abuser does not care at all about the feelings of the victim. You did not cause the coldness towards you that he feels and you cannot fix it. It has to come from him.

Both of those ways of looking at things (therapy and hoping you can wave the magic wand) ignore the elephant or fail to see it for what it is in all its hugeness because of close proximity to it. The goal of abuse is to establish control of you and to limit your options until eventually you feel you have no choice left but to continue with the relationship no matter how awful it is for you or how harmful it is to the children. In other words, the goal of the relationship, for the abuser, is to provide an available target over whom to establish control and to limit their options to staying in the relationship. For the abuser, their current relationship is valued only because it would take a good deal of effort to go out, find another victim and set up another relationship. There is nothing special about the specific person he is involved with. Anyone with a pulse would eventually provide the target he craves.

With intimate partner abuse it is very hard for the person on the receiving end to accept that there is no mutuality to the relationship in the abuser's eyes. The relationship is a game of power -- getting it and wielding it are all that is important to him. He does not value family or children or you the way you value family and children and him. For an abuser, a relationship is important only because through it he can feed his need to dominate. He does not value the joy babies bring or the joy of a good sexual relationship or family holidays or seeing children succeed in school and in life.

Going to counselling together or letting him know you are going to individual counselling tells the abuser that you and he share responsibility for the abuse and this is an enormous mistake. This abuse is his choice. He is in the relationship because it affords him the chance to abuse.

MistressDeeCee, that phenomenon is talked about in the LundyBancroft book too.

H claimed it was an anger problem too. Except it seemed he was only angry at us, and only when other people weren't around, although he slipped a few times and shocked a few people.

I insisted he go to counselling, and he did. As a delaying tactic. I firmly believe he did not disclose to the counsellor any of the abusive behaviour and after a few appointments, he quit. Three different courses of counselling and he quit each and every one after a few times.

When he told me that he needed help to improve his behaviour, but that until it was fixed I'd just have to put up with it, that's when I realised he wasn't interested in fixing things. He just wanted to gloss over it until I gave up and things went "back to normal."

He was always sorry, but there was always a "but..." after the "I'm sorry" such as "the kids were pushing my buttons" or "you just wouldn't back off" or something that made it "not his fault."

Some brilliant advice here as usual.

One thing I wanted to ask is: does he break his own possessions or yours? And when he breaks household items such as mirrors etc does he clear it up, or do you?

Think about the intention here. Breaking things could be about anger, but if its your things he targets then it's because YOU are the target.

Think about if he leaves the mess for you to clear up. It's a sign of entitlement. This can often escalate, if this form of control doesn't = the result he wants from you or DD.

I will add that I insisted he leave, as I feel that if he really wants to fix the problem, he can do it on his own time. I'm not going to live with it and neither will my DCs. He wants to get back together, but I'm not interested in discussing it unless he sorts himself out, and quite frankly I'd be surprised if he manages to do so. He certainly will never try while he is allowed to behave badly at home - what incentive is there to improve then?

Exbil went down the anger management route, can back from his second class and pushed my sister out the door with a baby in her arms. She fell and banged her head but was relieved that her baby fell on top of her. When the ambulance came it was her fault, an accident.

She left him eventually.

This isn't anger management, it's abuse. If it were anger management he would be screaming at clients and punching his computer at work.
Where he goes is up to him. You are taking on his responsibilities as your own by worrying about this.
You want to accompany him to the gp so you can be sure he will be honest about how much he abuses you. Think about this for a second. If he truly wanted help he would be scrupulously honest himself, if you don't think he will be...then what?
Anger management will not work on him.
Abuse perpetrator programmes exist, but for that to work he will need to acknowledge he is abusive. Do you think he will? He will also need to be out of the family home while he engages in this. They can be 26 weeks or longer.
What help are you hoping that the gp will provide?

Hi MoonshineWashingline,

Re your comment:-
"Surely I should let him give therapy a go first though before chucking away years of our lives? I don't want my family to fall apart"

Its already falling apart and you are desparately trying to keep this sinking old tub afloat for your own reasons.

The above from you is what is called the "sunken costs" fallacy. If you put a lot of emotional investment into a relationship (which you clearly have), it can be very challenging to break it off. This can be true of any relationship, not just romantic ones. Perhaps one of your good friends is no longer a positive influence on you. Years of emotional investment makes it very uncomfortable to cut your ties, but you might have to.

We fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy because we are emotionally invested in whatever money, time, or any other resource we have committed in the past. The most important step to freeing yourself from making poor decisions based on sunk costs is to recognize the logical fallacy. Simply being aware of it will help you tremendously in making more rational decisions in the future.

What do you get out of this relationship now?. Yes YOU personally with regards to your own needs, please do not tell me that he is a good dad because he patently is NOT. I do wonder whether you want to rescue and or save him from his own self here. I will tell you now that neither approach is ever successful in relationships.

As for him anger management will achieve nothing. You have stated yourself that he grew up seeing similar (no real surprise there) and that the root cause is his mother (no real surprise there either, these men actually hate women, ALL of them starting with his mother who btw also failed to protect him from abuse). How can say six sessions of AM even begin to undo all of this crap he has learnt over a couple of decades; it cannot and will not do so!.

Do not sacrifice yourself and your child on his altar because he is simply not worth it. Also your child will not thank you for staying with such a man and could well despise you as a result for being weak and putting him before them. Is this the role model you really want her to be learning from, both of you are currently imparting damaging lessons to this highly impressionable child. It also makes me wonder if you too grew up with violence within the home.

You ought to be speaking to Womens Aid because they can and will help you. Do not let your DD grow up in such a disordered household and let this become her normal because as an adult she will more than likely find a violent man to set up home with.

Women's Aid -- 0808 2000 247

Hi OP, I could have written your post 4 years ago. After a particularly nasty outburst I gave him an ultimatum 'sort your anger out or I am leaving'.

He made a GP appt straight away, I accompanied him. GP advised he was depressed and referred him for counselling. The counsellor did not understand that he was abusive, and completely validated his feelings by saying 'everybody gets angry from time to time' and balked at the stories of abuse he had witnessed as a child. All this ensured he continued to see himself as 'the victim'. He was miserable to live with and could not see the joy in anything. He never acknowledged or apologised or even discussed his behaviour with me. Apart from the odd comment 'Im trying really hard'.

Eventually things slid back to how they were. After a particularly awful week I lost it with him, I finally had my own mega-angry outburst and threw him out. Even at this point he was trying to justify his behaviour and make excuses. There was I, spilling out my deepest anger, pain and frustration, and there was him saying 'why can't you tell me every time I get it wrong' and even 'but I don't like taking the hoover upstairs'.

So he obliged and left in June. He now lives elsewhere. Still has absolutely nothing to say about our 14 year marriage or its end. Still feels like the victim. Still sees himself as 'babysitting' the kids when they spend a weekend with him.

It is very very painful, seeing a relationship you've invested so much in and cared so much about, dribble away. He is never going to turn round and say 'I was out of order' it will just rumble on and on, which is very painful. But now he is out of the house, I no longer live with the fear, and the kids are more relaxed.

Do not accompany him to the GP. Throw him out and ask him to return when he has done enough work on himself. I'm really sorry OP that you are dealing with this.

You might feel awful telling him to go, but I'm afraid that for your sake of your DD you need to put up with feeling awful for a bit. This is very bad for her. Don't put him ahead of your daughter.

One problem is that I knocked something off his dressing table in frustration. He has said that I have an anger problem too. I probably do.
So he won't seek help if I don't too.
I've said that I could go with him.

I've told my GP about my behaviour as it worried me. She wasn't keen to do anything.

CherryHaribo

I am very concerned about you because you are in the same sort of abusive situation that the OP is.

It is typical of abusive men to try and project onto others; your GP did nothing because in your case your behaviour is normal. Your man's behaviour is abusive, all of his behaviour towards you is abusive and it wears you down to a pulp. He will not be happy until he destroys you; these men hate women, all of them starting with their mother.

Also such men never take responsibility for their others and blame others for same. This is what your man has done here; he has projected his issues onto you and wants to make you responsible for his issues. Such tactics again are very commonly seen in such abusive men.

Please talk to Womens Aid because they can and will help you escape this man. You and he should not be together now.

CherryHaribo

This is not an anger problem either; the person he chooses to be angry with is you and you alone. He probably is very plausible to many in the outside world; such men often are.

Oh, god yes, the "I'm trying very hard" and expecting you to acknowledge how much of an accomplishment it is for them not to rage at you for A WHOLE DAY. Seriously. And expecting praise over it. Pointing out to me "Look, I'm trying - it's been 2 days since I shouted at/swore at/threatened the DCs." Gosh. I'm so proud you.

And the apologies that always sling it back at you... "i'm sorry I behaved that way, but you.... " meaning "it's not really my fault, it's you."

And the "You're the one that's abusive, not me!"

And "It didn't hit you - if I'd meant to hit you, I would have!" when he threw something across the room at me. (I moved or it WOULD have hit me)

And "you just want to be rid of me so you're looking for any excuse" and on and on...

Agree with other posters I'm afarid. he does not have an anger management problem. In fact, he is highly successful at managing his anger, as he is conniving enough to save it only for you, while the rest of world knows him to be perfectly personable. He manages his anger around his boss, his friends and his colleagues, so why not around you?
Because he doesn't think he has to, and what's more, he does not want to.
Judge a person not by what they say, but by what they do. Actions speak louder than words after all. He says he's oh so sorry...but he does it again and again, so his apologies, while sounding goodm are worthless.

His abuse serves a purpose...it makes sure you are under control and won't step out of line, for fear of an aggressive outburst. He gets his own way, and makes sure HE is priority, by scaring and upsetting you.

It is extremely common for abuse to set in after the birth of a baby, as the love and concern you have for your baby, threatens and undermines his position as the matter of most importance.