How to deal with this type of behaviour from MIL?

[Thosecrazyinlaws]

I have changed my regular posting name because I want some advice based on what has been happening and what has been said without changing information and this is very identifiable.

I realised very early on that my MILs behaviour wasn't normal, she is very highly strung and irrational and a master at twisting things or just plain making things up. I believe she is a classic narcissist for many reasons: things must revolve around her or she gets upset, she plays her sons off against each other, her husband is completely enabling of her behaviour (or she makes his life a misery). She is very caught up in how people think of her - that her friends think she is wonderful, so generous etc. and what they think of her husband and sons (how badly they treat her - though I am never sure if the constant 'my friends think you treat me terribly' line is made up).

Today there has been another in a long line of outbursts where she has accused my partner of being jealous of his brother's Christmas present. It's not true - he went to help her pick it, encouraged her to get the more expensive version and basically thinks she is free to spend her money how she wants. She said how her other son deserves expensive things because he has been so good to her. He asked her not to be hurtful by saying that and it turns into him being madly jealous in her eyes and she becomes so irrational.

She has been shouting and screaming at him tonight as she tends to do on these occasions as well as phoning and texting me to tell me how hurt she is, what an awful person he is, how he twists things. Having been there on numerous occasions where she has been spoiling for a fight I know it is her twisting things and I want to know how I can point this out to her without escalating the problem. I have a sinking feeling she will never accept it and I am fighting a losing battle but for my partner's sake I want to try.

My current strategy at the moment is just placating her e.g. 'I know that was a nasty thing to say, but we all say things we don't mean when we are angry don't we?' It is patronising but I am trying to get her to see things from his side or admit fault, which I know she will never do.

Usually he gets angry and joins in the argument, over the years I have talked him down a little and asked him to think about what he says knowing she is storing up ammo against him. She winds him up to such a degree I understand why he finds it hard to hold his tongue though. Sometimes he gets mad, but he apologises like he did today but this seems to make her worse. She is spoiling for a fight and goes into a rage when she realises he is not fighting back.

I feel desperately sorry for him, he has had years of her telling him he is good for nothing and will never amount to anything, threatening to throw him out when he was a teen and cut him off now. When his dad was in ITU after a life-threatening accident she threatened to make sure he would never see him again after one row, he came home and wept because he knew she was nasty enough to stop him visiting. I hold her completely responsible for his anxiety problems and low self esteem. He does not want to cut her out of his life because it would mean not seeing his dad (his dad would never go against his mum).

I'm sorry for the epic post but I am at the end of my tether with her. My mum was visiting tonight and saw my MIL accuse my partner of saying and doing horrible things. My family dynamic is nothing like this. I am at a loss to understand or explain it to them. My parents just don't understand that a mother would say or do such things so I am constantly having to try to explain it is her and not my partner at fault. As of tonight we are barred from the family Christmas, she will expect this to be forgotten when she wants, I feel like making other plans and telling her why.

Do it then. Except this is really between your DH and her. I would support his decisions but I would avoid getting directly involved - don't be drawn in by her contacting you.

What your DH said sounds perfectly reasonable to me, certainly less hurtful than her pa comments about HUD brother.

I've reported (in a helpful way, hope you don't mind op ) as it's a while since op was online and hopefully it will be gone before many more people see it

Will do the same

Does your DH understand that when a parent is abusive he is allowed to go no contact? He does not have to have this woman in his life. He does not have to put up with being abused? Does he understand that it's her not him?

Other than that all I can say is practice some mantras between you where you set your boundaries so when she starts you/he can say 'We're not going to stay and have you scream at us. We/you are leaving.'' and other similar phrases.

She does sound like a classic narc but she's also a bully and bullies get worse if they're not stood up to. We have learnt this over many years with our narc and we now challenge her calmly with phrases like, this is not acceptable, you should know better (she doesn't, but it appeals to her vanity), you're being very rude, etc. She stomps off but will later act as if nothing has happened. So it does work, in the short term. However, we have also had a couple of long periods of nc when she has acted unforgivably. You both need to understand that this is an option, op. It gave us a few years of much-needed peace.

She does sound like a classic narc but she's also a bully and bullies get worse if they're not stood up to. We have learnt this over many years with our narc and we now challenge her calmly with phrases like, this is not acceptable, you should know better (she doesn't, but it appeals to her vanity), you're being very rude, etc. She stomps off but will later act as if nothing has happened. So it does work, in the short term. However, we have also had a couple of long periods of nc when she has acted unforgivably. You both need to understand that this is an option, op. It gave us a few years of much-needed peace.

I logged back on with the nagging feeling I had done this...Thank you very much for those reports, haven't quite got the hang of the name change have I? Will stick with this username for a while.

I'm not bothered about people on Mumsnet linking my usual name to this thread but it's a factual post where I haven't bothered to change details so wouldn't want to be 'spotted' by anybody I know in the real world.

BillyBanter it has took a long time for my partner to understand that it is not him, it is her. I think he sees now how abnormal it is. We work together and work with some really lovely women who are constantly praising their children and talking about them fondly it breaks my heart when he says he wishes he had had that.

I don't think he would ever go no contact, although we have discussed minimal contact in the past because I just know she will never change, never see she is wrong (my nana is very similar in character). He knows if he cut contact he wouldn't see his dad as unfortunately his dad placates her even when she is completely out of order and my partner has said that sadly he doesn't think his dad would go out if his way to maintain any kind of relationship. I think one of the things he finds most hurtful is that he sticks up for his dad yet his dad has never done the same for him and stays quiet even when he must know his son does not deserve the treatment he is getting.

We have tried mantras in a way - I have always told him to remain calm, not rise to the bait to keep the peace as otherwise he is playing in to her hands. It is so hard to describe but she doesn't do the worst of it in front of me, though I have heard her on the phone to him and seen the text messages. She is very careful not to run him down in front of me, it's the opposite actually, she'll say 'why do you have no confidence, don't let people run you down' which I find infuriating because I know what she has said in the past.

Sometimes she can't control herself and rants at him in front of me but about inconsequential things rather than personal attacks. Yet she will say the most awful things to her husband and he just takes it. She is fantastic at playing nice in company even when I can see she is fizzing with rage.

Do not allow her to suck you in. Refuse to discuss your H with her. She is attempting to divide and conquer.

When she rants hang up. Every. Single. Time.

If she threatens to ban you from christmas. Say ok, your choice, we'll make other arrangements.

Don't try to 'appeal to her better side' or 'try to get her to see your dh's side'

She doesn't have a better side, that's all about her too.

She won't ever see anyone else's side but her own. That's how narcs roll.

You can not have any knid of normal relationship with a narc. So best to not even try.

Damage limit, disengage and protect yourselves above everything else.

garlicbaubles has started an interesting thread about this here that might help you, or your partner.

I don't believe that her friends/neighbours really think she is nice. People keep up appearances all the time but in my view other people know they have an unpleasant side, but if they aren't at the brunt end of the nastiness just ignore it, either because theyfeel that they and the nasty person go back a long way or because they dislike the nasty person and don't want to get embroiled in their nastiness so just act as if they don't know, and put on a face of being friendly.

V sad that the DF just lets DM do this, is it really so important to DP that he keeps relationship with DF? With her manipulating things could he just accept that he can't have a normal relationship with DF and let it go?

Do you all live together? Why is ther so much of this going on?

OP, as the token sane person in this dynamic, you're in the unique position of being able to really help your DP, and it really sounds like he needs it, poor dear. Please do be his rock as much as you can.

Agree (mainly with Hissy) that you need to stand up to MIL, then disengage. If DP wishes, he should limit contact to simply visiting the father.

And, anyway, maybe if the father is threatened with not seeing his son, he may wake up a bit.

Re: mantras. What also helps is - you know how if youre supposed to do public speaking, people say "just picture them in their underwear"? Or doing the Ridiculoso spell at the Boggart. DP and I have a codeword for MIL that sums up what we're sure must be her fear of being discovered as the faker that she is. Get DP to have a think about the silliest qualities his mum has (you can help, too - fresh perspective) and make up your own codeword.

Best of luck.

If your MIL is indeed a narcissist (and many of their victims come to their own conclusions about such disordered behaviour as these people are hardly ever clinically assessed) it is not possible as Hissy states to have any sort of relationship with her.

Such women always but always need a willing enabler to help them and this is indeed his Dad's role here. His Dad also would always back his wife over her because he being both weak and a bystander to all this acts out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. In time your DH may decide that he is not worth having any sort of relationship with either. I would not let him off the hook at all, he has also allowed this to continue.

Your DH is still very much enmeshed within this whole dysfunctional dynamic. I would suggest he starts reading "Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina W Brown.

Given distance, or only transient and intermittent contact, you can get along with narcissists by treating them as infants: you give them whatever they want or need whenever they ask and do not expect any reciprocation at all, do not expect them to show the slightest interest in you or your life (or even in why you're bothering with them at all), do not expect them to be able to do anything that you need or want, do not expect them to apologize or make amends or show any consideration for your feelings, do not expect them to take ordinary responsibility in any way. But note: they are not infants; infants develop and mature and require this kind of care for only a brief period, after which they are on the road to autonomy and looking after themselves, whereas narcissists never outgrow their demands for dedicated attention to their infantile needs 168 hours a week. Adult narcissists can be as demanding of your time and energy as little babies but without the gratification of their growing or learning anything from what they suck from you. Babies love you back, but adult narcissists are like vampires: they will take all you can give while giving nothing back, then curse you for running dry and discard you as a waste of their precious time.

It is also essential that you keep emotional distance from narcissists. They're pretty good at maintaining a conventional persona in superficial associations with people who mean absolutely nothing to them, and they'll flatter the hell out of you if you have something they can use or if, for some reason, they perceive you as an authority figure. That is, as long as they think you don't count or they're afraid of you, they'll treat you well enough that you may mistake it for love. But, as soon as you try to get close to them, they'll say that you are too demanding and, if you ever say "I love you," they'll presume that you belong to them as a possession or an appendage, and treat you very very badly right away. The abrupt change from decent treatment to outright abuse is very shocking and bewildering, and it's so contrary to normal experience that I was plenty old before I realized that it was actually my expression of affection that triggered the narcissists' nasty reactions. Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door. The narcissist will treat you just like a broken toy or tool or an unruly body part: "If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off" [Matt. 18:8]. This means you.

Narcs are also masters of "come closer so I can hurt you again". The best way forward for you both is to disengage entirely both emotionally and physically.

My MIL has been horrible to my DH and the way things have improved has been because he changed. He didn't stand and argue back or cry in front of her or stay on the phone. When she started bringing up the past or slagging him and bringing up all his failures he just ended the interaction. This took a few years but things are better now.

I agree with Hissy - disengage, disengage and you and your DH be a strong team and support each other. And I would make different plans for Christmas or just do a short visit and leave.

I used to rage inside with all the things I wanted to say to the woman but it wasn't my battle to fight. She used to be nice to me and keeping up appearances. Apart from a few morsels like - "If I forget your name it's because(DH) has had so many girlfriends". He said if only it were true!! I am always on guard for her but she has changed a bit since her mother died (lots of f**ked up things with that too). You have to support him so he changes or you just feed into her drama seeking attention seeking ways.

Your reasonableness is like oxygen to her. She thrives on upset and divide and rule. Is your DP's brother the 'golden child' who can do no wrong? After a brief good spell are you both put on the spot, criticised or patronised? The daft thing is she probably praises you to the skies to these friends she mentioned, to badmouth you would be to admit she is less than Mother (or MIL) Of The Year.

OP I am sorry DP's dad is too weak to defy her. Banned from Christmas? Make other plans, build new traditions. When the royal pardon comes, stick to the alternative arrangements.

PS do you have DCs yet? They will get sucked into the next generation of tears and drama. It will not get easier the older she gets.

My current strategy at the moment is just placating her e.g. 'I know that was a nasty thing to say, but we all say things we don't mean when we are angry don't we?

Your poor husband! He's standing up to her, which is a very tough thing to do (I know this, as I'm a child of 2 narcs) and you're fuelling her fire by saying things like this! How does that help him? You need to stop trying to placate her - do you think it will turn her into a nice, reasonable person? It won't, I can assure you. All that's doing is reinforcing (in her mind) that she is right.

Take her at her word and organise something else for Christmas, then when she realises you're not falling into line and not coming, just brush her off with a bright, breezy - "sorry other plans, maybe next year"

You need to support your husband - good for him for standing up to her

Good luck OP

Not sure I can add much to the good advice here from several people. katla's and jackthebodiless's summaries seems perfect.

Just to say it again - you and your husband need to let each other know about every communicatoin from her, including texts. People like this are reallly good at playing one off against the other.

Get your husband the book attilla recommended, "children of the self-absorbed" and / or "Toxic Parents" and persuade your husband to read them.

Encourage your husband to see her rages as those of a toddler, because that's what they are. People can have the intelligence of a full grown adult but after a certain point their emotional reactions become those of a very small child (after dealing with a close family relative and her rages, dealing with my 2 year old's tantrums was dead easy). Keeping calm and 'detached with love' helps enormously. They feed off any reaction they get.

Take her at her word. She univinted you for xmas? go ahead and make your own arrangements. When she gets upset, keep calm and simply say that this was what she had said, so you had to make other arrangements. Not nastily, just straightforward.

Your husband has a very long way to go I'm afraid but at least he's started on that road to independence and being his own man. At least he listens to you. A few threads on here, the woman's partner is so bound up in their mother that the woman is .. nothing :/ ).

Working together, you should be able to handle it, though there will be some magnificent storms from her on the way. Speically when things start to change a bit.

I can really understand you being tired to death and beyond of it. Perhaps it will help to step back in your mind and reassess this fight. it's not just the status quo that you're trying to make bearable, it -is- a fight to 1) keep your husband in contact with his father for as long as he wants it, 2) make both your lives bearable and 3) become closer with your husband in the face of a very nasty outside circumstance, your MIL.

I'd also say that if you can, make sure to go away with your husband for a wekeend now and then to get well away from it all and simply enjoy each other's company and have fun. A relative like your MIL can so quickly dominate life and drain all the enjoyment away.

My current strategy at the moment is just placating her e.g. 'I know that was a nasty thing to say, but we all say things we don't mean when we are angry don't we?' It is patronising but I am trying to get her to see things from his side or admit fault, which I know she will never do.

Like RobotLover this is the part of your post which really stood out to me. Personally I don't think that your reply to her manipulation helps at all. It might deflect her nastiness from you, but it isn't doing your husband any favours. You are telling her that it's not her fault and that whatever her son says isn't actually true, when it is.

I think that you need to be a united front in this situation. When she says things like this, either refuse to get involved or positively back your husband up.

Also please do make other plans for Christmas. If someone banned me from a family Christmas I certainly wouldn't be anywhere near them on Christmas Day. Or any other day actually.

I'd also say that if you can, make sure to go away with your husband for a wekeend now and then to get well away from it all and simply enjoy each other's company and have fun. A relative like your MIL can so quickly dominate life and drain all the enjoyment away a good point here from Meerka

I used to say to my counsellor "they're involved in 5% of my life, yet I allow them to cast a shadow over 95% of the rest of my life" Once I realised I was doing this, it enabled me to shut stuff away in a box and get on with the rest of my life and just deal with them as and when necessary. Most of the time now, I don't give them a moment's thought, life is so much more peaceful

I feel for you Op. my mother is like this and my dad is the bystander. It's difficult to understand if you have a normal family, but you can't change her and nothing you or DH do will ever be enough.

I second reading toxic parents as that helped me a lot. I still see my mother but I stood up to her and now emotionally detach. Bullies only pick on those weaker than them so I agree he has to stand up to her and then disengage if he is not prepared to go NC.

My mother had tantrums on the floor like a toddler. Very few people believed me as it sounds not possible for a grown up to do that. The last time she did this I treated her like a toddler, waited til she finished and calmly told her the next time it happened I would film it and put it on you tube with her actual name in the title. I also said I would show her sister ( she is very concerned with what her sister thinks of her).

After years of my dad telling me that she couldn't control herself, what do you know, she has never done it again. That's because she knew I meant it. I was not prepared to let DS see her behaviour and that was the impetus for me doing it.

Wish you well for the future.

A very difficult one.

You've had great advice so far - I would agree with - DETACH, DETACH, DETACH.

Easier said than done, but use this and the other recommended threads to start strategising. Shoe the threads to your poor DH too - he'll begin to see that he's really really not alone.

For Christmas? My suggestion - make other plans. Maybe even go away, if possible. Don't contact them. Then, when the subject comes up - 'Oh we've made other plans after the upset the other week. No, we'll stick with them. We don't want to cause you stress over Christmas.'

Her: 'How could you, you're ruining my Christmas etc. etc.'

You: 'I'm sure we'll be able to get together next year.'

Drama begets more drama. You both need to start ignoring her and go as nc as possible and ignore any drama she tries to create. If your hubby ceased letting her push his buttons, her dramatics would fizzle out as no one would be feeding them. You both have my sincere sympathies. She sounds an obnoxious biatch.