How to deal with this type of behaviour from MIL?

[Thosecrazyinlaws]

I have changed my regular posting name because I want some advice based on what has been happening and what has been said without changing information and this is very identifiable.

I realised very early on that my MILs behaviour wasn't normal, she is very highly strung and irrational and a master at twisting things or just plain making things up. I believe she is a classic narcissist for many reasons: things must revolve around her or she gets upset, she plays her sons off against each other, her husband is completely enabling of her behaviour (or she makes his life a misery). She is very caught up in how people think of her - that her friends think she is wonderful, so generous etc. and what they think of her husband and sons (how badly they treat her - though I am never sure if the constant 'my friends think you treat me terribly' line is made up).

Today there has been another in a long line of outbursts where she has accused my partner of being jealous of his brother's Christmas present. It's not true - he went to help her pick it, encouraged her to get the more expensive version and basically thinks she is free to spend her money how she wants. She said how her other son deserves expensive things because he has been so good to her. He asked her not to be hurtful by saying that and it turns into him being madly jealous in her eyes and she becomes so irrational.

She has been shouting and screaming at him tonight as she tends to do on these occasions as well as phoning and texting me to tell me how hurt she is, what an awful person he is, how he twists things. Having been there on numerous occasions where she has been spoiling for a fight I know it is her twisting things and I want to know how I can point this out to her without escalating the problem. I have a sinking feeling she will never accept it and I am fighting a losing battle but for my partner's sake I want to try.

My current strategy at the moment is just placating her e.g. 'I know that was a nasty thing to say, but we all say things we don't mean when we are angry don't we?' It is patronising but I am trying to get her to see things from his side or admit fault, which I know she will never do.

Usually he gets angry and joins in the argument, over the years I have talked him down a little and asked him to think about what he says knowing she is storing up ammo against him. She winds him up to such a degree I understand why he finds it hard to hold his tongue though. Sometimes he gets mad, but he apologises like he did today but this seems to make her worse. She is spoiling for a fight and goes into a rage when she realises he is not fighting back.

I feel desperately sorry for him, he has had years of her telling him he is good for nothing and will never amount to anything, threatening to throw him out when he was a teen and cut him off now. When his dad was in ITU after a life-threatening accident she threatened to make sure he would never see him again after one row, he came home and wept because he knew she was nasty enough to stop him visiting. I hold her completely responsible for his anxiety problems and low self esteem. He does not want to cut her out of his life because it would mean not seeing his dad (his dad would never go against his mum).

I'm sorry for the epic post but I am at the end of my tether with her. My mum was visiting tonight and saw my MIL accuse my partner of saying and doing horrible things. My family dynamic is nothing like this. I am at a loss to understand or explain it to them. My parents just don't understand that a mother would say or do such things so I am constantly having to try to explain it is her and not my partner at fault. As of tonight we are barred from the family Christmas, she will expect this to be forgotten when she wants, I feel like making other plans and telling her why.

*My mother had tantrums on the floor like a toddler. Very few people believed me as it sounds not possible for a grown up to do that. The last time she did this I treated her like a toddler, waited til she finished and calmly told her the next time it happened I would film it and put it on you tube with her actual name in the title. I also said I would show her sister ( she is very concerned with what her sister thinks of her).

After years of my dad telling me that she couldn't control herself, what do you know, she has never done it again. *

WOW. God, I wish I'd thought of this. It wouldnt have made any difference to the close family relative's behaviour in my case but it would have let other people see that what we were saying was true and not exaggerated. Its a bloody double whammy when you have this sort of behaviour -and- no one believes you.

RobotLover68,

re your comment:-
"My current strategy at the moment is just placating her e.g. 'I know that was a nasty thing to say, but we all say things we don't mean when we are angry don't we?"

You need to rethink this strategy as of now. Again, you being fortunately from a normal and healthy family, think this is the way to go. Its not. You need to realise that the "normal" rules of familial interaction with such disordered people do not and never work.

The above approach is flawed and is actually the last thing you want to be doing, that strategy never works with narcissists because it is giving them a response, they live for a response. You and H need to present a united front and detach from this narcissist before she wreaks your lives completely.

Apologies robotlover, I should have written the initial poster's name.

Your strategy is of course correct. Detaching is the way to go with such disordered people.

I'm afraid I agree with Robot. I'm sure your intentions are good but i read your post and felt so sorry for your husband. You should not be agreeing with your MIL that your husband has been hurtful, she will take it as siding with her no matter how you word it. Your poor husband has been made to feel worthless, unkind and bad his whole life and hearing you say these things to his mum will only add to his already low self-esteem. You need to present a united front, refuse to discuss these things with her. If you allow yourself to get caught up in these things chances are that she will try to create problems between you and DH.

I am in a similar situation to your husband and went NC earlier this year. Unfortunately my dad always enabled mum and made no effort to continue contact with me as it would be too 'awkward'. I was very hurt by this as loved dad very much but i am still glad i went NC. It made me see that my relationship with dad was just a childhood fantasy. Dad was never capable of loving me, otherwise he would not have stood by, watching my pain and her vicious attacks over the years. As hard as it is for your husband, his dad is not capable of loving him. The relationship he is so scared of losing doesn't really exist anyway.

Horrible!
Book yourselves somewhere away for Xmas, don't subsequently change your plans, and present a united front. Tell her you will not listen to her talking about the man you love in that way and terminate the conversation. And tell her if she sends nasty, bullying texts again you'll forward them to the whole family.
If DP doesnt want to go no contact, your only choice really is to set limits on what you'll tolerate, and stick to it. Calmly. Like you would with a toddler.
Your poor DP must be very happy to have someone as nice as you to be on his side.

Roshbegosh we don't usually live there but had been. We moved out of our rented flat after the birth of our first child. Children weren't allowed and though we had a grace period from our landlord it became increasingly stressful. Both sets of parents offered help but mine really didn't have the room. It did allow us to easily pay solicitors fees for the purchase of our new house but has been nothing short of a nightmare as I knew it would be. In the end it was so bad I went to my parents and stayed there, my partner has between the two. But happily we are now in the process of moving.

dozeydoris I don't think she could hide it for long either. I try to tell my partner that people know what she is but he finds it hard when she is saying her friends/family are appalled by him. Her family definitely know, I would suspect her friends are aware she is selfish and hard to please! She tries to be nice but the mask slips.

Oh crap, am I making things worse?? I hoped by being reasonable and trying to get my partner to do this no matter what it would mean she didn't have anything to hang us with so to speak. I thought if I could get him not to react she wouldn't be able to have the 'my son called me an awful name and said nasty things to me' conversation with her friends which is what he hates so much.

She tries divide and conquer but thankfully he tells me what she says and texts about me and I do the same. She has said horrible things about me but only once in six years has she said them to me, sending texts saying she didn't care about me and wouldn't care if she never saw me again. She hasn't done that since, it is all insidious and behind my back.

It has came to a head recently because she has brought my Parents in to our rows and I called her on it. She said in a row to my partner that she is helping their daughter while they stand by, that they should be doing more and even though I know I should take my own advice and ignore I can't bear her calling them - they are loving, decent people who would do anything for anybody. I made it clear to her how I felt and she wasn't happy.

I think you are all right and placating her has been the wrong thing to do, I thought I was making sure she didn't have any way to argue with us so she would have to back down. Truthfully, I know what I should be doing
but I find it very hard to just come out and say to her 'actually, even though I wasn't there I don't believe your version of events, it is you who twists things not my partner'.

She stood yesterday in front of me and my mum and put him down saying he was jealous and treat her badly and I didn't know what to do. She is so sly, it was on her way out the door, almost an aside, 'oh you should have heard how he spoke to me earlier...' this came after an hour of pleasant chat and her not mentioning being unhappy. I dwelled on it a lot later, what I could have said. I want to let her know I know the games she is playing but am too timid to actually do it.

I sadly don't think his dad would care enough about not seeing his son to stand up to his wife. He hears the way she carries on then blames his sons. He told my partner today 'that's it, nobody wants anything to do with you now'. She will expect him just to forget the row when she is ready to move on.

We normally have loose plans for Christmas, I put my foot down early on on this issue as I'm not prepared to have my life set out for me. Sometimes we spend it alone, sometimes with relatives but I didn't want to have to go anywhere.

I am interested how people have found this kind of parent/in-law as a grandparent. I would flip if she ever tried anything like this with my child, but watching her with her older grandchildren she is very loving. Is it possible she can have a normal relationship with them when she has a completely abnormal one with her sons?

Another one agreeing with robotlover. It sounds like you are enabling your MIL.
You say your DH doesn't want to go NC with his DM. Are you sure about that?
I wonder if he is afraid that you would not support him if he decided to go NC? Do you think that he should put up with this appalling abusive behaviour "because she is family?"
The best thing you can do for yourself, for him, for everyone is to cut her off. Absolutely no contact. I did it with my DM and it is absolutely life transforming in a positive way.

We have discussed it gleekster early on in our relationship I thought it was the way to go. I really don't think he wants to, weirdly they are a close family I don't think he would want to walk away. She is capable of poisoning his relationship with his dad and his brother and family.

His brother, although definitely the favoured child hates his mother. Is this normal? He knows exactly what she's like and says he cannot stand her. He is much better at dealing with her, more assertive, refuses to be drawn.

Hi Thosecrazyinlaws,

re your comment:-
"I am interested how people have found this kind of parent/in-law as a grandparent. I would flip if she ever tried anything like this with my child, but watching her with her older grandchildren she is very loving. Is it possible she can have a normal relationship with them when she has a completely abnormal one with her sons?

I smiled wryly to myself when I read the above, particularly with reference to the last sentence.

Do you actually think she is having any sort of "normal" relationship with those children?. I feel deeply sorry for those children because MIL is using them as narcissistic supply. Narcissist grandparents make for being awful grandparents, honestly these types should not be given any access to their grandchildren.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Often, when they over-value, it is the objective of the Ngrandparent to steal the child from you. I mean that in both senses, physically and emotionally. Ngrandparents are known for so much trash-talking against you behind your back to your own child or children that they want to go live with grandma or grandpa, or the Ngrandparents simply inspire rebellion of the child against you. They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times the Ngrandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them. I have read heart-breaking stories of these kinds of situations often enough that I recognize the clear danger any narcissist grandparent represents. They can even steal your children's hearts from you when the children near adulthood with promises of money, houses, cars, etc. as bait.

You have already described her as a narcissist and it is NOT possible to have any sort of relationship with such a person. These people make out for being toxic grandparents as well as toxic parents; please stop pandering to her good nature because she truly does not have one.

If you consider yourself a responsible parent you will never, ever leave your child alone with this woman.

"His brother, although definitely the favoured child hates his mother. Is this normal? He knows exactly what she's like and says he cannot stand her. He is much better at dealing with her, more assertive, refuses to be drawn".

Yes because the assigned "golden child" role is a role not without price. Am not at all surprised either to see that he cannot stand her. Detaching as he has done is the way to go here.

Yes Atilla his brother has detached emotionally from the situation, but as a family they see a lot of each other. I would much prefer a bit of distance from his mum, she is suffocating. I

The things you have said about grandchildren rings true. She is fond of saying how much they love her, how they used to cry to see her etc. I had I assumed it was all wrapped up in her high opinion of herself, and a way to slag off her DIL (she dislikes us both). They do get spoilt, but she is very adept in general at using money to control people.

Her own MIL says of her she is a great actress. In my opinion she is especially great at playing the wounded innocent. My partner has tried to play her at her own game by employing her tactic of saying 'such and such can't believe how you treat me...'. I can't tell you ow many phone calls and texts from her this has led to. I've asked him not to anymore as it puts me in an awkward position, but I understand his frustration when she is telling him what her friends think of him.

listen to attilla re grandchildren. What you see with the older grandchildren is not necessary what you get. People who are sane and from good families do not see the subtle tricks and very subtle manipulation that is going.

It's interesting and good that your brother in law hates her. Golden children sometimes grow up pretty unpleasant, I think. Kudos to him if he's resisted the lure of being the favoured one. Do your husband and him have a good relationship?

Regarding actually handling her, your partner's best bet really is not to play the same games. Really. No matter how infuriated or frustrated he is. He does not want to adopt her weopons that have made her so poisonous, and all they do is make the situation worse.

Nothing will make someone with these entrenched patterns of behaviour change. The only way to deal with it is to be united together, to detach (even if you still have contact, emotionally detach); to lay down your rules and keep to them and to keep adult and calm.

Just be careful that she doesn't draw you into this OP. One slip of the tongue from you & she will use it as a weapon against you.

Do not let her bad mouth your DH to you, just tell her every time that you won't tolerate her criticising him. She will soon get the message.

I definitely think emotional detachment is a good idea, and not getting drawn in. I will struggle with actually standing up to her, she says things in such a way it is hard to go against her. I know my SIL does though, she stands up for her partner and takes his side which is what I should do. But my BIL allows his mum to criticise his wife whereas my partner does not. We need to combine the two things to have the perfect response to her.

Meerka it is funny with his brother, he can be nice, kind, affable but he knows how to use his position as favourite to his advantage. My partner thinks he is similar in ways to my MIL. Him and his brother get on well though and are great friends despite constant attempts to derail this by their mother (she will phone up and bitch to one when she has fell out with the other, or subtly mention what one has said about the other). As I say, they both see her for what she is so that is good in a way.

Holdthepage I have had my fingers burned with that before! Letting things slip out and regretting it instantly. I am just handing her ammunition.

I have just been musing on this, I said my partner tells me what she has said about me and he does, but occasionally doesn't tell me about extremely hurtful things until later. She said some disgusting things about my parents who have done nothing but welcome her and it makes my blood boil. Would you confront her when things like this come up or judge leg it go?

I feel very much like I need her to know I am aware of what she has said, is this just childish? When we have confronted her she just twists and twists things so you end up doubting yourself.

I would say that if she says something hurtful about anyone then the person she says it to needs to challenge it then and there. It can be as simple as "please don't say things like that about XXXX". Even if it means challenging her as she's walking out of the door once she's made a snide comment. If she makes the comment to your partner, then your partner needs to challenge it. If to you, you need to challenge it. Calmly. "that's not so" or similar. Think up some possible replies ahead of time.

She will hate it that you two are so united and unprepared to take these nasty comments, she will twist and turn and rage, but in the end she will have to accept it.

Do read 'toxic parents' and the book Attilla recommends. And look at the Stately Homes thread; the first post there has some good ideas.

Challenging her is taking a step forward out of the currrent nasty situatoin into a new situation and people hate change. Specially if they stand to loose by it, and your MIL does. Be prepared for this. But keep in mind the end goal; a new place for you and your partner to stand, a much more advantageous one.

I am just wondering if we can undo the mistakes we have made in dealing with her all these years? Like me trying to placate her instead of challenging her, my partner just desperately trying to play her at her own game to try to make her see how hurtful it is, and worst of all anytime we have let her in to our rows so she was able to pick sides and allocate blame.

I am determined now to present a united front, and I think my partner and his brother should do the same, though I have no influence on his brother. My partner is so sensitive to what she says and it hurts him so much when she says, particularly in company, how good his brother has been with them over the years as if he has done nothing.

He told me he was tempted to record her the other night so she couldn't deny it. I dread to think how she would react to that, but it wouldn't be pretty...

I would put a lot of money on the fact she doesn't tell her friends anything about how bad your husband treats her.

My narc mum used to tell how my brothers used to tell her how discussed they were of me when they took me out.

One day I had enough and had a go at my brother. He had no idea what I was talking about.

It was all lies designed to control me. I bet your mil is the same.

Don't let what she supposedly tell others (ESP others who mean nothing) control your behaviour.

Mean this in the nicest way BUT by trying to placate her and continuing to see her you are basically enabling her behaviour - just like the Dad.

Why should you put up with and have contact with someone so nasty and who makes your life miserable - just because she is family?? Family love and care for each other and enjoy each others company. They enhance and boost one another's confidence etc. Would you put up with a friend who treated you like this??? No - you would stop seeing them. I do not see this as any different. I have family members who I barely see due to how they make me feel. Alternately I have friends who I see loads as they are such positive people.

She wont change so you have to make a decision to either cut contact or "put up and shut up". I really hope you have more respect for yourself and don't just put up with it.

Grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change,
The courage to change the one I can,
And the wisdom to know that's me.

You cannot change other people. They are as immutable as the tides. Just accept that she's ill, and sad, and boiling inside with fury...and detach yourself, so you don't get infected. Just concentrate on being as nice and calm as you can, and a loving partner for DH.

I am just wondering if we can undo the mistakes we have made in dealing with her all these years? Like me trying to placate her instead of challenging her, my partner just desperately trying to play her at her own game to try to make her see how hurtful it is, and worst of all anytime we have let her in to our rows so she was able to pick sides and allocate blame.

oh no .. especially at the last sentance :s

Ok, so ... we go on from now, from today.

No, you can't undo them straight out. But what you can do, is start to do things differently. Keep the united front, stop the placating. No need to go aggressive, just keep calm and murmur neutral things and do not, ever, respond in anger / hurt. Keep those emotions hidden until you can talk to each other.

It is absolutely the worst idea to play her at her own game. It's dangerous for several reasons; it's playing into her hands and there is, I'm afraid, the chance that in the long term he might find that behaviour spilling over into other difficult situations. It woudl be her greatest victory. Again, please read those books.

It's just sad that these people like causing trouble with peace-loving, kind and normal folk :/

It is excellent that you might be able to take this approach along -with- your brother in law. Regarding her very hurtful comments about the golden boy - is it a possibility for your DP to talk to his brother about what's she's trying to do with these comments? Clearing the air with his brother might take a lot of the sting away, if the brother agrees that she's being nasty and that your partner -has- been helping. Getting acknowledgement from him might help a lot and then the poison will be at least half-drawn. it'll depend on how your brother in law is, as to how feasible that is.

If your mother in law has been picking sides in rows and allocating blame, plus your DP is clearly still able to be badlly hurt by her, I am rather impressed that you and your DP have done as well as you have so far. A lot of people's relationship would have foundered, just read some of the threads here. But yes, you need to begin to take another approach. Just be prepared for her fury. Handle it together.

Meerka I think it definitely helps our relationship that he can see what she's doing now, there was a link I showed him a long time ago when I first stumbled upon the relationship boards that had definitions of types of behaviour such as scapegoating, triangulation etc. He could give examples from his childhood onward for all of them. It helped him see that he could, I suppose, if not control then at least predict her outbursts and understand what she is up to. I don't think he will ever get over her treatment though, he still doesn't believe in himself and is crushed with anxiety and panic attacks which she fuels.

She still has such an iron grip over him though. A perfect example of this is my last birthday, we had planned a romantic day out and she was angling for an invite. I don't know why she would even want to tag along, it was nothing spectacular. Anyway, we had told her it was just us two but she phoned in the morning wanting a stamp, my partner was halfway out the door promising he wouldn't be long. I knew if he went he wouldn't make it out of there alone and we had a row - him saying he had to drop it off me saying we would drop it off after we got back. He was like a child begging me not to get him in trouble, it is scary how much control she wields... So we go on our day out and eventually get to hers (there were endless calls and texts on our way home). I babbled on about my day, she asked where we had been etc. she was unfailingly polite then she turned on my partner with all the usual tirades. The stamp was for a friend's birthday card and the birthday was tomorrow and it would now be late. My partner said he would drop it off which would be better than posting it to get there next day anyway but of course she wasn't bothered about her friends birthday or any solution.

When my partner talks to my BIL he will say just ignore her don't give her a rise, he refers to her as poison. I think more people can see her for what she is than she thinks. My partner thinks she has everybody fooled but the thing is she can only be kind, thoughtful, good company for so long then it starts to get to her.

For anybody who has a narcissistic parent or parent-in-law is no contact the only way to ever go? It is confusing because she can be a normal, supportive mum then she just changes. I think we already have strong boundaries with her in terms of not spending all our free time with them, it is really important to me especially since we have had our baby, but we need to work on dealing with outbursts better. If we are successful with this can we still maintain a good relationship or am I asking for too much?

I forgot to say, although this may be a separate issue, but she is on antidepressants and sometimes decides to just stop taking them. She has complete toddler style meltdowns over the tiniest things such as a teaspoon hasn't been washed or an innocuous comment. Days later she'll blame it on not taking her 'loopy pills' (don't want to cause any offence, that is what she calls them).

She will also accuse me and my partner of smirking at each other when she is talking, though never to my face, always behind my back. When I think back it was just an innocent smile, sometimes laughing along with a story she is telling.

I have been reading Garlicbaubles's thread and the projection thing is very true - in her case she accuses others of being selfish, jealous and paranoid.