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Narcissists and their rages

308 replies

garlicbaubles · 07/12/2013 16:04

For a number of reasons, I thought it might be a good idea to share our stories. I'll post one after this.

About 1 in 10 people have mental disorders, of a type that renders them incapable of seeing the world as others do. For them, all the world really is a stage: the men, women and children merely props for the drama going on in their heads. They can't see that things go on without their influence, or accept that other human beings feel & think independently. It's like the way young children think - and may well be caused by arrested emotional development.

For them, your every word and deed is scripted, by them. It's impossible to know exactly what your 'script' says. If you know them well, you can make a good guess but they will always surprise you by introducing another plot twist. (And anyway, who wants to live as a figment of somebody else's imagination?) When you step out of your appointed character - by having a thought or feeling of your own, for instance, or not being exactly where they wanted - they get terribly cross. It absolutely shakes their world; it's very distressing for them so they blame you for wrecking the world, like a temperamental director ranting at an opinionated actor.

The rage, the blame, the insults are never about you. Never. If you can manage to listen quietly, what you'll hear is this: "I wrote, cast and directed this scene. You're spoiling it for me!" You will also hear them tell you their insecurities - what they most dislike and fear about themselves, projected as if they were your faults, not theirs.

They usually forget what they said, or that they raged at all.
Please, do, share your stories of 'stepping out of character' and the Narcy rage that followed. You never know how many lightbulbs you might switch on Wink

OP posts:
CranberrySaucyJack · 15/12/2013 22:02

I would imagine true NPD would count as a disability in the same way that other Axis II mental disorders are. I know for a fact that Borderline PD is anyway.

The irony being though, that a true narcissist would never accept there was a problem and seek help in the first place tho.

Narcs. are either overt types who genuinely believe they are entitled to treat other people the way they do because they are "special", or they are covert types who manipulate and control instinctively without really being aware they're doing it. Neither would ever admit they were the porblem.

CCTVmum · 15/12/2013 23:24

Might interest some on this thread, just turned to Channel 5 and a documentary called Psychopath Night is on, information says delves into the minds and lives of these people!

FolkGirl · 15/12/2013 23:47

I agree cranberry. I would say that, if my mother is a true narc, then she would fall into the latter group.

BerlinerBelle · 15/12/2013 23:53

Really interesting thread Garlic.

H didn't have 'rages' as such, but he did a great line of 'you're so secretive' and 'you don't tell me anything'. Funnily enough, it's not something any of my other boyfriends had ever complained about - or my friends. In fact, I'd say I'm pretty open and easy-going, and if anything my 'wearing my heart on sleeve' attitude is a bit of a weakness. However, after a few years with H, he'd convinced me that I was closed and secretive.

Now, of course, I've found out that he is a pathological liar/cheat with a double life - it all makes sense. At the time, when I was a 'DW' trying to make the best out of her marriage, I bent and twisted myself double trying to be more 'open' and wondering why I was alienating my husband. Any little thing he 'found out' during conversation with others that I hadn't already revealed was evidence that I was so. i.e. you didn't tell me you were interested in e.g. stargazing - therefore, you have been deliberately concealing the fact and are a difficult/secretive wife.

I'd never truly understood 'self-esteem' before. I'd always (and still do) considered myself confident. My H made me doubt my own rationale, judgement, self-belief. He told me black was white and because I loved him and could not imagine that he did not hold me in the regard that I held him, I had to believe him. It was a horrible, destructive time in my life.

I really wish I could protect others from what I went through.

middleclassdystopia · 16/12/2013 05:02

So if someone is a psychopath, are we not allowed to hate and scorn?

The point is abuse is abuse. An abuser knows what they do is wrong. I would be mightily upset to be chastised for labelling or lacking in sympathy for my father's 'traits'.

The manipulation, sense of entitlement and bullying that made my life hell at times.

My birth mum had schizophrenia. A horrible illness she couldn't help. Beyond the illness she was a sweet and kind person.

I don't know if the abusers in my life had PDs or not. If that was the reason they were dysfunctional but if they did well no I didn't like it at all.

I try to take everyone as individual regardless of their mental health status. But if someone was diagnosed psychopath or NPD I would be wary yes.

Bob Hare is the leadibg expert on psychopathy and warns they can be very dangerous because they lack empathy. It's not disablist, I think people with such traits can cause a lot of damage.

passedgo · 16/12/2013 09:03

My dsil has problems to the extent that she lost residence of her dcs. I don't know what her diagnosis is, but the symptoms have been very severe and she has upset a lot of very vulnerable people. However the consensus of everyone involved in her ds care arrangements is that it's ok for him to spend a week at a time with her in the holidays. I am the only person who disagrees and thinks it is too much pressure for him. She is extremely manic and demanding, narcissistic but highly intelligent. There is often an argument with someone when they go out. I have very little say in any of this it's a SS matter but I do wonder what damage is being caused through those long stays. Fortunately db and his partner are very good with him, but I do wonder why he is expected to cope when most adults can only handle a few minutes with her.

springythatlldofornow · 16/12/2013 09:11

Wo, what's going on with this thread? I'm feeling very uncomfortable with the categorising. yy I appreciate that being on the end of a narc tilts ones world, and we need to get some clarity about what happened, what goes on, how we were done over. But there comes a point when we have to let it go into the ether, or they'll make us as mad as them.

How old was that kid in the car, g? S/he may not have had the same equanimity about that 11 minute incident, could well have been traumatised by it.

Like NotSuchASmugMarriedNow, I also, by the looks of things, have a dd who is very probably a narc. I have to battle the ignorance of others assuming erroneous stuff about that, viewing me with suspicion; while I'm trying to come to terms with the truly agonising reality that my dear, dear daughter is probably a monster (like her father). The grief of that truly fills the universe if I let it.

Unlike with my XH, I can't categorise her and file her away, smugly looking down on her, treating her to removed, pseudo 'loving'. I have to go the route of tremendous loss and grief. Love costs, I find.

passedgo · 16/12/2013 09:20

Springy have you read the FLEAS article previously posted?

FolkGirl · 16/12/2013 09:48

But there comes a point when we have to let it go into the ether

Let what go into the ether though?

It distorts your world view so much that you don't know what's 'normal' and right and what's not.

If you've grown up with someone like that, it's not like you developed 'normally' but there are a couple of blips that you recognise as such and that just live alongside you, but that you feel slightly aggrieved about. The damage permeates every aspect of yourself. You can't just cut it out, put it in a box and forget about it. It underpins the very essence of who you are.

I think it's reasonable to assume that being the parent, partner, or child of someone like this are three very distinct and different experiences.

That's not to say you couldn't improve, and I also agree that you can make a choice about whether you change things or not and choose to indulge it, but it's not as simple as just letting it go. For one thing, you've got to recognise the dysfunction for what it is and realise that there is a problem. In my case, I'm 39 and it's only since cutting my mother out a couple of years ago that I've even begun to question how I felt about/saw myself. Until then the way she regarded me was just who I was. I had no reason to question it.

For example, I can remember being about 16 and sitting on the wall outside the shop around the corner from my house with my friend on the way home from school and saying to her, "if my own parents don't love me how on earth is anyone else going to?" I just believed that I was unloveable so I've never thought of myself or behaved as though I was loveable, and so have never been loved. I've known I wasn't loved since I was a very young child. It's only occurred to me in the last 2 years that this might not have been an intrinsic part of me, but the fault of someone else. It means I have to unlearn 37 years of 'knowing' myself. That's not something I can just 'let go'.

To continue that example, I don't think I ever will be loved now. I think I can recognise the absence of unkindness, violence and obvious abuse. But would I recognise love? No.

stooshe · 16/12/2013 10:06

@Lookatmybutt. You had a covert narc just like I did. He hid his fuckery behind my "brashness", too. What I was confident of was that I couldn't possibly be the only person to think that he was/is "off". I knew that he was gaslighting me (I've read a LOT of American feminism and the therm "gaslighting" is common over there) and I was sure that he was projecting. I established a pattern of behaviour (he likes to leave a woman to go with somebody that he "knew" before her. He feels no way in upping sticks and "starting all over again" with a new woman. He likes women with children as "they are not jitterbugs", meaning that these women, once he has charmed their children may be reluctant to cut off a relationship with him as "the children like him".
My ex is dark skinned black man and "accepts" it, but doesn't like it. he once asked an ex to have an abortion as she was dark like him too. He didn't want a dark child! He always went on about "past glories" and how he is a family man. Well, he has no relationship with his three children. he lied about his brother for his mother dying. Of course said non dead brother had to die in his arms! Meanwhile, he never told me about the death of one of his brothers for his father...and he was with me at the time, showing me photos of a woman on face book who was supposedly his brother's fiancee...when she wasn't!
I describe his condition as "Reckless Rigidity". Just by "thinking like him", I have managed to predict his moves, to the point that when one of my friends saw him sitting in a park near to where I live, I knew that I would "bump" into him very soon. I did. By then I had been studying NPD every day for a year. I knew not to interject, finish sentences, only ask questions that I knew the answers to.

Anybody who says that we are stupid for falling for this, beware; the condition is more common than noted. Psychologists find it hard to treat. We are living in times where people with NPD can "fit in"more as we accept moral relativity more and more. Furthermore, it is hard to tackle people who feel no way in lying ...lying by omission, white lies, big lies, being a fantasist. They always start off insidiously. They don't come looking like the bogeyman.

passedgo · 16/12/2013 10:07

I don't think there is a right or wrong response, but I do think it helps everyone to confront the behaviour or it becomes normalised. Ignoring it probably makes it more likely to continue, it just won't be in your 'ether'.

cherryblossom3 · 16/12/2013 10:08

Thank you garlic for such an interesting and enlightening thread.
I for so long have felt like I'm drowning in a sea of narcissism, my only goal in life seems to be self preservation.
I grew up feeling like something wasn't right within my family, my Df being a narcissist and my Db being the golden child, me being the scapegoat, no what I did it was always wrong, if I stood up for myself I was the trouble maker.
I then inadvertently married a man who's mother is also a covert narcissist. The whole world revolves around her. my Df passed away some years ago and my Db came out of his shell, revealing a malignant narcissist who now has complete control of my family, very vindictive, manipulating everyone, extremely egotistic. my role in his life has been cast as the trouble maker. when two narcissistic familys meet it isn't pretty. my only goal is to try to sheild my children from these people. both me and dh carry many fleas!!
only yesterday mil had a very dramatic breakdown in front of grandchildren about how stressful her lifes been this week cause fil had an accident. Her only concern is how it's affected her.
It's extremely lonely and soul destroying being part of someone with NPD's life and unless you are living it, it can't be possible to truly understand qhat these people are capable of. Sad

stooshe · 16/12/2013 10:23

Sorry, I can't get with the "narcissists have no control over their behaviour", malarkey. That's the thing, they are very controlled....control is their middle name. They get a kick from manipulation. That is why there is debate as to whether it is a mental illness. Just because it is a "disordered" way of thinking , doesn't mean that they are "ill". I've yet to hear of the narc who is nice, sweet and gentle. Their cylinders are ALWAYS clicking. Maybe I'm just an Class A bitch, but if I was to wake up and find out that ALL adult narcs had disappeared tomorrow, I would heave a sigh of relief. The chaos that even one can cause on an infinite amount of people is appalling. They KNOW what they do is shady. hence the lengths and the lies that they go to...only to get dumped or cut and run when "things get to sticky". Funny how they always have somewhere to run to. Funny as they are so "mentally ill" they can sort out new partners and new digs seemingly on the flip of a coin.
Having ONE of these people in a "nuclear family" can set off a generational curse. There mist be millions of adult children out there living and being people that they are really not because of roles put upon them by narc parents.
Imagine a world without narc parents, at the very least. I wonder out of the tossers that run too many countries, how many of them or their parents are narcs? NPD is like the elephant in the room. Now I have to sympathise as well as empathise with them? Kiss my teeth.

Golddigger · 16/12/2013 10:39

Would be interesting to know if anyone knows anyone who has managed to change behaviour?

Mystuff · 16/12/2013 11:03

My mum is a narcissist, but she is an introvert and was trained through her childhood not to express negative emotion, so she does not have rages as such, she cries if people step out of line. Ultimately, she does not want other people to express any needs, so her own needs are always the priority.
It is breathtaking how the world revolves around her and every situation is seen from her perspective.

When I was pregnant with dc2 my parents said they would look after ds1 when I went to the hospital to give birth. Dc2 had the audacity to be a week late - I had dm on the phone every night asking if I was having him that night so they knew if they could drink or not....

She also kept telling me how stressed out it was making her, not knowing when he would be born, because they didn't know when they could go on holiday.....

I've had a difficult relationship with my dm my whole life, she has never been able to provide any emotional support about anything and I was trained not to express anything of my own wants or needs. But, the hardest thing to come to terms with has been the disinterest in my own children. Ultimately, whatever age you are, it is very hard to accept that your own parents do not love you...

Meerka · 16/12/2013 11:07

Golddigger, talking of people with Borderline Personality Disorder. Yes. Some. Some with quite severe BPD too (clinically assessed). It depends on firstly the will to change and secondly the ability.

I have heard of (a few) people with psychopathy PD who try hard to keep within societal norms. There is something missing in them but not to the point that they are destructive. However, that's 2nd hand and not personal experience.

cherryblossom3 · 16/12/2013 11:22

I would love to go NC with the narcissists in my life and wouldn't miss them one bit, but unfortunately my Dm is elderly and not mentally with it anymore and feel that if I went NC with my Db then it would be lile throwing a lamb to the wolves. I knpw what he's capable of and I couldn't live knowing that if his negative attention wasn't on me he could turn on her. Because I feel like I can't cut Db put of our lives yet, Dh refuses to do anything about mil.
I too find it hard to understand how they are not suppose to know what their doing is wrong and hurtful, I think they do know they just lack any empathy to careSad

springythatlldofornow · 16/12/2013 11:29

Once we've done the (extensive) work, found out what is going on, how they work, what they're doing, what they did; grieved our (considerable) losses, counted the cost.... then let it go and get on with our life . Not ignore it, but accept: that's how it went for us. Grief doesn't really end, we just aquire more skills to handle it. We may be, to some extent, 'disabled' by being subjected to primary narc abuse - but press on, face life as we are. Yes, it's often (very) painful but that was the hand we were dealt. It's not fair, it's often vile, but there we are: we're alive, get on with it.

I do wonder if there is an inherent myth here that we can tidy up life, tie up loose ends, peace reigns. Not so - imo it is unusual to tidy things up and neatly tie up ends. Often we just have to face that we don't really understand - but that's ok, keep going, enjoy our life; or enjoy what you are left with, anyway: your lot.

I read the other day of a young man who lost his sight as a soldier. He raged and raged for at least a good 2 years, unable to accept it (many top themselves because they can't face life with their injuries, and that's understandable). But then he finally did accept it and, as much as he longs for his sight back, he accepts he isn't going to get it. He said he could never be glad he had lost his sight, but that he recognised it had given him a depth he never would have had without it, which he highly prized.

I appreciate that eg losing your sight is immediately recognisable, unlike being chewed up by a narc, which takes extensive work to reach even a vaguely stable footing, mind and heart. Us injured sorts may be a bit unusual (ie unusual characteristics) but so what, get on and enjoy.

FolkGirl · 16/12/2013 11:32

Oh I agree with that springy I've no intention of being a 'victim'. I suppose I'm just at the start of the long journey. It sounds like you're approaching the end :)

springythatlldofornow · 16/12/2013 11:46

My post was in reply to FolkGirl's 'Let what go into the ether though?'

I am not being dismissive. I just want to live, choose life; I don't want my (so far) narc-infested life to be the final word.

springythatlldofornow · 16/12/2013 11:49

x-post FolkGirl.

I think 'being a victim' is part of this very painful journey, nothing to be ashamed of. I just don't want to end there.

I was coming to the end, FolkGirl, but have come full circle as the vile thing appears to be propelling through the generations re my girl. I can't be as black and white about it because I love her and always will, so that heart-tie will never be broken.

Meerka · 16/12/2013 11:55

springythat'lldo, really good post. Made a lot of sense to me.

springythatlldofornow · 16/12/2013 12:14

Nope, not getting any joy finding the FLEAS article upthread - could someone re-post the link please? Thanks Xmas Smile

FolkGirl · 16/12/2013 12:42

I so agree springy I tend to follow that line from Shawshank Redemption about how you can choose to get busy living or get busy dying.

I remembered that about 12 months ago when my world bottomed out and it's made such a difference.

But it's not easy. Getting over my marriage breakdown/stbxh's affair is small fry compared to the other stuff!

Abitannoyedatthis · 16/12/2013 12:52

Does anyone know of a narc who has accepted treatment and managed to overcome it? My mum is a narc- I haven't seen her for 3 years - I feel sorry for her as she drives people away but I could no longer cope with abuse being screamed at me.

Does it run in families? I think my grandmother was also one, one of my aunts (though she is also bi-polar) and possibly my niece. I think my own children are not, thankfully.

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