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Narcissists and their rages

308 replies

garlicbaubles · 07/12/2013 16:04

For a number of reasons, I thought it might be a good idea to share our stories. I'll post one after this.

About 1 in 10 people have mental disorders, of a type that renders them incapable of seeing the world as others do. For them, all the world really is a stage: the men, women and children merely props for the drama going on in their heads. They can't see that things go on without their influence, or accept that other human beings feel & think independently. It's like the way young children think - and may well be caused by arrested emotional development.

For them, your every word and deed is scripted, by them. It's impossible to know exactly what your 'script' says. If you know them well, you can make a good guess but they will always surprise you by introducing another plot twist. (And anyway, who wants to live as a figment of somebody else's imagination?) When you step out of your appointed character - by having a thought or feeling of your own, for instance, or not being exactly where they wanted - they get terribly cross. It absolutely shakes their world; it's very distressing for them so they blame you for wrecking the world, like a temperamental director ranting at an opinionated actor.

The rage, the blame, the insults are never about you. Never. If you can manage to listen quietly, what you'll hear is this: "I wrote, cast and directed this scene. You're spoiling it for me!" You will also hear them tell you their insecurities - what they most dislike and fear about themselves, projected as if they were your faults, not theirs.

They usually forget what they said, or that they raged at all.
Please, do, share your stories of 'stepping out of character' and the Narcy rage that followed. You never know how many lightbulbs you might switch on Wink

OP posts:
Meerka · 15/12/2013 10:09

Just my opinion but I actually think there is such a thing as 'evil' and 'wicked'. I don't think everyone who behaves appallingly is ill; some are, defintiely, but some of them know what they are doing is wrong and can choose differently and don't.

I think it's actually more comforting to us on the receiving end to think they are 'ill' rather than wicked. It's remarkably uncomfortable to realise that some people simply don't give a shit how much they hurt us.

FolkGirl · 15/12/2013 11:01

loller My mother doesn't have a diagnosis because, of course, it's everyone else around her that's the problem - she told me I'm ugly because I am, she told me I'm fat because I am, she told me I'm unloveable because I am, she told me no one would ever love me because they won't, she told me I can't cook because I can't, she told me I'm a crap mother because I am...

Maybe she doesn't have NPD (although she ticks the majority of the boxes) but she has made my life so unbearably miserable. I have no confidence; no self esteem; it's affected my ability to form and maintain relationships - not just romantic but friendships too; I've underachieved at work; I've been on ADs to treat anxiety since I was 17... etc... all because I'd grown up believing that I wasn't fit to inhabit the same planet as everyone else. She told me when I was in my early 20s that she wished my brother and I had been born disabled because then we would have been deserving of her love (and she thought people would feel sorry for her and she'd get lots of lovely attention).

She is the centre of the universe. She completely lacks any empathy. When my son's father had an affair when I was pregnant with him (just one of the LTR I had with an EA man who didn't love me because it was all I'd ever known) and I found myself homeless, jobless and completely abandoned and I really needed her to be a mother for the first time ever she arranged for me to go into a hostel whilst I was in hospital having him because it was inconvenient to her to have me at her home for any length of time (she wouldn't be able to bring random men home) and because she was worried about what people would think about her. She also got signed off work for 6 weeks to help her cope with the stress and the shame of it all even though she had nothing to do with me/us.

I've spent years trying to uncover what was "wrong" with me, because she's been telling me since I was 9 that there was "something wrong" with me. I've had assessments after assessments and when they all come back with "you're fine - there's nothing wrong with you", I've withdrawn further and cut off lines of support because I thought I was so fucked up that I couldn't give anyone (including a Clinical Psychologist in one case) honest enough answers for them to work it out.

I fantasise about self harming (never done it though) to remove the most hideously offensive parts of myself (my face which isn't pretty enough/as pretty as my mother's; my hips/bum which is too big/bigger than my mother's; my breasts which are too small/less attractive/smaller than my mothers when in fact she was always a 34b and I'm a 34dd)

I've treated other people badly in the past because I felt so insignificant it genuinely didn't occur to me that might have the capacity to hurt others by my words/actions or because I haven't believed anyone could like me, or because I married someone who didn't love me because I thought so little of myself (hence inability to maintain relationships).

So whilst I haven't made snide comments about her on here, I say plenty about her in real life. And she deserves every single one of them. I didn't ask for any of it, I didn't deserve any of it.

FolkGirl · 15/12/2013 11:26

On my graduation day, when I had achieved a first class degree as a single parent and commuting daily to another city with a toddler, she insisted that we also celebrated her NVQ level 2 that she had achieved a few months earlier and that we had already been out to celebrate.

When I pointed this out to her she accused me of being selfish and said, "anyone would think this day is about you"

When she was diagnosed with breast cancer, she was upset because I wouldn't tell my 6 year old son. I said it would only worry him and he didn't need to know until he needed to know. I'd made the same decision with my dad's cancer 4 years earlier and he was happy with it and agreed with it. Whereas my mother said I was being cruel by not telling him and accused me of denying him the opportunity to offer her sympathy and hugs to make her feel better.

When it turned out that her latest partner was someone who had convictions against children she said that she didn't consider that to be a good enough reason to not go out with him or introduce him to her family because it "didn't affect" her. Her only deal breaker is cheating on her.

She only ever understands anyone else's situation in terms of how it affects her. So if it does affect her, she feels motivated to change it or support them (or put them in a hostel). If it doesn't affect her, she will just say "I'm not interested."

mousmous · 15/12/2013 11:36

just unlurking, because I stumbled onto 'psychopath night' on channel 5 yesterday. was very interesting with examples given in films.

garlicbaubles · 15/12/2013 11:58

I haven't seen it yet, Mous - it's definitely on my playlist!

FolkGirl, you've described very well the pain & damage caused by a PD parent. I also empathise with what you said about causing damage yourself, because you didn't grasp that you had any power to hurt others. I certainly suffered from various "FLEAS" throughout most of my life. If anybody paid me a compliment, I reacted as if they'd insulted me ... because, naturally, they were being sarcastic & picking on my insecurities Blush I raged, because rage was part of my normal. I've bitched, gossiped and used people because nothing I said or did mattered - or so I believed.

These, and more, are outcomes of having been the child of adults who cannot understand that others have existences of their own. This incapacity is what gives rise to 'evil' and 'wicked'. In the disordered mind, only that mind is real. The rest of us are props, cutouts, tools or reflective surfaces. I don't see them as evil, in the same way I don't see a lion as evil. It may chase me, torture me for amusement, kill me and eat me, but not out of what humans call malice. It neither knows nor cares that I am a sentient being like itself; it just does what lions do.

OP posts:
passedgo · 15/12/2013 12:31

The psychopath programme ties right in with our discussions (although lightened up for tv). It does describe the wild look when they have their rages, too.

What you say about not understanding the effect of your actions is interesting, probably a large component of narcs' behaviour is actually a result, not of being attacked, but of being ignored.

It may also explain in part why the parents of some psychopaths are nice normal people- children don't need nice, they need unconditional love, and feedback.

GoldfishCrackers · 15/12/2013 12:33

I am so god damn weary of dealing with people with PDs. Like Garlic I can't count how much I've spent on therapy talking about the effect one in particular (my abusive ex) has had on my life. But I have so much compassion for him because I know his grotesque parents, and I could weep for the little boy he was, who experienced sustained abuse at their hands. I've heard PDs described as PTSD for sufferers of child abuse. It makes a lot of sense to me. But it doesn't change the fact that my only wish is for him to disappear out of my life, and more importantly, out of the lives of our DCs. I don't waste my time hoping he'll change - he refuses to believe there's anything wrong with him, reads a document from his psychologist (describing his deficits) as being a criticism of me Confused.

Meerka · 15/12/2013 12:48

sums it up so well goldfish .. could weep for the little boys and girls they were, who could have been so different if things had gone better. But the end result of is someone that is at best difficult and at worst, to be avoided like Sarin gas.

Meerka · 15/12/2013 12:50

Sorry that was too strong of me. Not everyone with a PD is like that. And a lot of them go through and live with a huge amount of pain inside.

passedgo · 15/12/2013 12:59

FLEAS is interesting, mine is about reading my level of connection with people. Disbelieving when anyone is interested in me and clingy if I know they like me. It is an unbalanced experience of personal relationships. I have had to learn to cope with neutral friendships but found social networks invaluable for this, seeing that everyone has a life outside my relationship with them, and aspects that I might not like at all, but that doesn't mean we can't be friends. Connection is a much deeper thing and very rarely found, but sadly lacking in my childhood.

garlicbaubles · 15/12/2013 13:53

What an insightful post, passedgo. I understand this is one of the reasons BPD is gradually falling out of use - people from distressed childhoods often have difficulty regulating their emotions, and understanding the gradations of friendship/connection. Basically, it's hard to tell whether an emotionally dysregulated adult has 'FLEAS' or a fundamental disorder. Practitioners need to see whether the person is able to adapt to cultural norms with treatment.

OP posts:
FolkGirl · 15/12/2013 14:22

Yes, the eyes thing. My brother and I used to say she had "wild flashing eyes" when we were younger.

FolkGirl · 15/12/2013 14:52

Yes, that FLEAS link is really interesting. I definitely have FLEAS!!

I also take compliments as insults and 'feedback' is always negative. I'm terrified of being "told off". I've had an email this morning from a man I've started seeing. I sent him a couple of photos of myself because he asked and I don't want to look like I have ishooos. He's replied saying, "Thank you, FolkGirl, you look beautiful. xxx" I don't look beautiful. I didn't want him to say that. Now I feel like he's being sarcastic/taking the piss/saying it because he's a lovely polite man and he thinks it's the right thing to do. Because there's not a cat in hell's chance he actually means it! I must be getting better, because I just feel sad and a bit stupid, whereas in the past I would have felt rage and disgust at someone saying that. Now I just quietly dismiss it. I smile and keep the disgust well hidden.

What saddens me the most is that I spent so long living with this, it shaped the person I am and who I became so much, I would have to completely relearn myself and start from scratch to change it. And I don't know if I could. or what person I'd be at the end of it. Would I even recognise myself?

The sky is blue. I know the sky is blue. We could start calling that colour green tomorrow. Eventually, I would learn and I would remember to call it green, but in my heart it would always be blue. And that's how I feel about this. I've been using the same analogy since I was about 12 years old.

Actually, what saddens me the most is this, I think that 39 years ago, a baby girl was born and she was just like any other baby girl. She had the same capacity for experiencing life and love just as any other little girl born that day, before or since. But because of the way her mother was, she is unloveable now. Not because she was born that way, but because she was shaped and raised that way. It's not what she was destined to be but it's what she's become.

I feel pretty broken. I can sometimes recognise unhelpful and unhealthy patterns of behaviour in myself, but I believe that they are 'right' for me. I don't know how to do it differently, or how to think differently, or how to interpret or receive other people differently. I have great difficulty in recognising what is 'normal'. I'm trying to learn, to teach myself, to observe and listen to others...

But I don't know when I'm right or not. Which could make me very vulnerable.

garlicbaubles · 15/12/2013 15:07

I'd be crying for you, FolkGirl, if I could cry. I'll have passed another milestone when that comes back.

Like some other Mumsnetters I know of, I'm on a search for 'good' input that started way back in my teens, but is now something of an obsession since finding out what was wrong with me. I am incredibly grateful to all those who model it, share it and feed it back honestly with me ... you know who you are, I think :)

Affirmations are a good start, Folk, and a very useful ongoing tool.

OP posts:
MatildaWhispers · 15/12/2013 15:46

This is a very interesting thread, with lots on here that I recognise. When I posted about my ex on MN I was told he sounded like a narc, and I was a bit anti armchair psychology at the time and didn't really read up on it (perhaps partly because I think I would have scared myself at the time anyway, had I read more about it).

I have seen the eyes thing too, in my ex's case it was lovely charming sparkly eyes that could switch so that they looked very cold and somehow blank. Everything could be switched in a disagreement so that it was about my faults, to the point where I would not raise any issues that might lead to disagreements. I was often confused by his arguments/rationales for doing certain things, it was like I could not keep track of where his mind was going, couldn't say the right thing for fear of being criticised, so in the end I just shut up.

The bit in the OP about the dangers of stepping out of your appointed character really rings a bell. A big issue for me was the number of children we would have (he saw himself with a large family, I wanted children but not as many children as he did) and he could not accept that I didn't want as many as he did. In the end, he did at one point say to me that maybe we would not have another child, but it wasn't because he had in any way come around to seeing things from my perspective, or indeed that he seemed to appreciate that I had a perspective really. Instead his reasoning was that the economic outlook meant that perhaps another child would not be a good idea!

passedgo · 15/12/2013 15:46

Garlic I can't do affirmations - at least the 'love yourself' kind of self-talk if that's what you mean. It feels phoney and stupid. I probably find most positive feelings when I have a positive impact that's tangible or measurable, so helping someone or changing something important, looking at a piece of work (that I think is rubbish while i'm working on it) when it's finished and surprising myself. Hell will freeze over when I actually believe someone that compliments me.

Folkgirl I think the medical model of healthcare over the past few decades (especially mental health) has resulted in these inadequate treatments, with diagnosis, treatment with drugs or prescribed programmes, even talking therapy involving time limits, or targets and very little learning, either amongst the professionals or between professional and patient. But this is what we are doing on this thread - learning - and I think it's a sign that we are capable of change.

I would agree that to change your response when someone says you're beautiful would be superficial but the way I see it is that one day something will fall into place to enable you/me to believe the person that says it.

Meerka · 15/12/2013 16:21

I find the same, I can't do affirmations. It just doesn't ring true and I simply can't believe them. If one happens to come by from outside, unlooked for, from someone who reallyl knows me, the good and the bad, then it means much more.

Also as time has gone on, I find it harder and harder to make friends. There's a sense that somehow I've walked a different path in life from many people and there's somehow a gulf between us of experience and sadness that makes it harder to talk. That plus difficulty trusting and difficulty really believing that people like me do make it difficult.

Oddly, having a really solid partner and mother in law have helped in so many ways but not the ability to make friends thing.

garlicbaubles · 15/12/2013 16:26

Yes, therapists are keen on "acting as if" because it helps us create new synapses. Bear with me, I'm going to do some more simplified psychology:-

Synapses are the 'folds' in your brain, which form shortcuts for repeated behaviour. It's very clever - instead of having to travel all the way round different parts of your brain, impulse sequences that we often use create quick routes. The ones for stuff like walking & talking are so deep they are visible; also the ones for things like your route to work, which is why you don't have to look at a map every morning Grin

We create synapses for all our repeated patterns of thought & behaviour. When we change a pattern, the redundant synapse gets smoothed away over time and a new one is made. It's obviously difficult to make the initial change - it's like driving off an A-road into a field. When we keep doing it, though, we beat a path through the field and, with regular use, it becomes a road. Affirmations are a good way of carving new thoughts; "acting as if" reinforces the new thoughts with behaviour.

Many of my affirmations, especially in the early years, weren't so much positive as anti-negative. For instance, I had "Emotional is not an insult, emotions are worthwhile," and "Good enough really is good enough".

I still don't tell myself I'm beautiful, because objectively I am not. I'm fairly pretty ... more importantly, I find myself attractive just as I am :)

OP posts:
Golddigger · 15/12/2013 16:26

Some bookds that might help are written by Dr David Burns?

www.amazon.com/David-D.-Burns/e/B00455GNDO

Not specifically for people living with narcissistic people, but helpful books to some people generally.

MatildaWhispers · 15/12/2013 16:40

garlic hope you don't mind me asking how long it took you to be able to believe affirmations/feel that they were helping you in some way? Or did you just happen to find that they worked for you from the start?

garlicbaubles · 15/12/2013 17:01

Thanks for asking, Matilda. The answer's variable! Some work quickly, some still haven't properly worked, there are lots I need to revisit regularly. Sometimes I have them all over the walls ... funnily enough, everybody gets it! I used to feel embarrassed about other people seeing them, but it turns out my ishoos are fairly universal.

I write my own to feel right for me, at the time. Usually to challenge a persistently unhelpful thought, so very little of the "I am wonderful" variety. I'm currently working on "It's OK to be wrong." I know this intellectually, but still panic at the thought of being 'wrong'. I will prevail! Grin

OP posts:
garlicbaubles · 15/12/2013 17:02

YY to David Burns, Golddigger.

OP posts:
Meerka · 15/12/2013 17:24

Many of my affirmations, especially in the early years, weren't so much positive as anti-negative. For instance, I had "Emotional is not an insult, emotions are worthwhile," and "Good enough really is good enough".

now that's a nice idea. a half-way thing that seems more possible, for me at least

garlicbaubles · 15/12/2013 17:43

:) We want plausible! Had enough of the other stuff Wink

OP posts:
passedgo · 15/12/2013 17:47

My dd has LDs and I was told by an educational psychologist when she was about 10 that because she didn't have the educational intervention at the right stage she has created new routes which make it hard for her to learn other things - a gap in learning has an impact on other aspects so it can be a big problem over time. What she didn't say was that new roads can be built to get her back on the motorway. I was on the verge of suing the school for institutional neglect.

Since she has gone to secondary school though she has come on in leaps and bounds probably because they are just more persistent and have high expectations of her. She no longer learns by trial and error as before, she learns by working things out. Probably because of the expectations and no-nonsense attitude of the school. That and the detentions, merits, awards etc that applies to all children regardless of their disability.

Admittedly, other aspects of her development have caught up alongside - co-ordination, sensory, attention, memory. It has been fascinating and a joy to see her change from being really very behind in most aspects of development, to capable and willing to try, knowing that she is more likely to succeed at a new task than to fail it.

Sorry if i've gone off at a tangent here.