Narcissists and their rages

[garlicbaubles]

For a number of reasons, I thought it might be a good idea to share our stories. I'll post one after this.

About 1 in 10 people have mental disorders, of a type that renders them incapable of seeing the world as others do. For them, all the world really is a stage: the men, women and children merely props for the drama going on in their heads. They can't see that things go on without their influence, or accept that other human beings feel & think independently. It's like the way young children think - and may well be caused by arrested emotional development.

For them, your every word and deed is scripted, by them. It's impossible to know exactly what your 'script' says. If you know them well, you can make a good guess but they will always surprise you by introducing another plot twist. (And anyway, who wants to live as a figment of somebody else's imagination?) When you step out of your appointed character - by having a thought or feeling of your own, for instance, or not being exactly where they wanted - they get terribly cross. It absolutely shakes their world; it's very distressing for them so they blame you for wrecking the world, like a temperamental director ranting at an opinionated actor.

The rage, the blame, the insults are never about you. Never. If you can manage to listen quietly, what you'll hear is this: "I wrote, cast and directed this scene. You're spoiling it for me!" You will also hear them tell you their insecurities - what they most dislike and fear about themselves, projected as if they were your faults, not theirs.

They usually forget what they said, or that they raged at all.
Please, do, share your stories of 'stepping out of character' and the Narcy rage that followed. You never know how many lightbulbs you might switch on

I have to take a break from thinking about sociopaths today, and deal with a few 'fleas'

Just quickly, then: Stooshe, it's not about lacking control in the way a schizophrenic might lack it, for example. I meant the sufferer can't significantly alter their world construct, therefore it's pointless to try & influence that. Neither can they help the emotional dysregulation, which is part & parcel of their limited range ... the emotions are all in there but, lacking a full set of tools for expression, tend to come out in uncontrolled ways.

I've said before that it helps me to think of PD people as I think of various wild animals. I may love & admire certain of their qualities, fear others, and dislike some. I form relationships with them. But I expect their interactions with me to be limited by their incapacity to 'get' my unique existence as a sentient human being, with all that entails. On a personal level, I feel that this is how I got the 'fleas' ... I needed my family relationships, so I adapted myself to their limited range of understanding.

I have known diagnosed psychopaths, through therapy, who are acutely self-aware and well adapted to normal life. Their incapacity for empathy is not a sadness to them, because they lack the ability to understand why it means so much to the rest of us! Like the psychopathic lawyer in 'Psychopath Night', they avoid intimate relationships because they know they will hurt the other person ... actually, the ones I've known said they'd like to find a compatible psychopathic partner. No idea whether that could work in practice.

Springy - in my opinion, I defused the ranting mother with the perfect hair. I don't know what else you would have had me do?

"We are living in times where people with NPD can 'fit in' more as we accept moral relativity more and more. ... They always start off insidiously. They don't come looking like the bogeyman." - Absolutely true, Stooshe, and I think the critics of this thread misunderstand the issue.

I really appreciate the posts here. Thanks to all! I hope we're learning from one another, and perhaps helping some readers currently stuck in situations they don't understand.

Springy - FLEAS

Sorry, g, I don't know how the situation went - eg could you have driven away? - but I am concerned that a child was subjected to that, and it is likely that that child would not have had the skills to bear it. To witness abuse is (often) to be a victim of abuse. Could you have got away somehow? From how you've written it, it looks like you were 'enjoying' an almost anthropolgical experience - and with your extensive knowledge and experience, you have the skills to see beyond what she did. But the kid in your car possibly doesn't have all that knowledge and experience (and also may not live in a disordered home) and an experience like that can be alarming, traumatising, frightening. I would have been looking at ways to cut the rant short. But I wasnt there and don't know how it went.

Great FLEAS article. Not sure how it relates to my child possibly being a narc though?

abitannoyed, the way it's been described to me by a specialist psychiatrist in the field is that that it varies wildly where it comes from, but that likely there's both a genetic and an environmental element.

He did clearly say also that the current thought is that if the growing psyche is put under intolerable pressure, then people tend to get very ill and that illness can express itself one of three ways; psychotic illness, neurotic illness and personality disorder. Each category can be mild, moderate or severe; he called it high functioning and low functioning.

Mind you seeing as we usually grow up learning how to interact with the world based along the guidelines our parents exhibit, it would be surprising if the children of narcissists did not have a greater chance of becoming narcissist. it would be interesting to see what percentage of children brought up by non-biological parents go on to develop PDs and in what circumstances.

From what he said though, and as I say he is an experienced professional, the growing psyche had to be put under a great deal of pressure to become seriously ill with a PD or other mental illness.

From how you've written it, it looks like you were 'enjoying' an almost anthropological experience - I'm surprised you got that from it
Since the whole thing arose due to a traffic jam in which the driver of a car several behind mine was able to leave her vehicle & spend 11 minutes ranting, I thought it was obvious I couldn't have driven away.
A situation arose, I dealt with it as undramatically as I could.
I don't even know why you're implying I may have caused trauma to my friend's DD?

I'm not sure you're hearing me right, garlic. You didn't cause trauma to your friend's dd, but your friend's dd was there ie witnessed the whole awful episode. If this woman had been hitting you, would you/friend's dd have been so sanguine? What the woman was doing was equivalent to hitting you.

It wasn't clear from your account what the situation was, only that you had managed to 'tune out' to some extent eg was able to notice her coiffed hair. I doubt friend's dd was able to tune out, however. It was probably a very difficult experience for her - or for anyone was was a witness. You included.

It was shocking, yes. Luckily she wasn't violent or screaming. I asked DD to time her so she'd feel in control of something, and talked her through it afterwards. All I could do, really.

Popping in to mark my place on this thread - hugely interesting, thank you garlic. I may say more about my journey at another time.

(Springy it sounds as if the car incident garlic described, is triggering something for you, which is clearly very painful.

Garlic, it sounds as if you handled it brilliantly being trapped in that situation. I agree that giving your friends dd the task of timing was very quick thinking - it would give her a detatchment from what was being said - and hopefully your friend was able to talk to her further to ensure that she could sort out her feelings about this. Unfortunate incident, but one which you managed for her.

Springy the FLEAS essay is relevant to your Dd because that might be her problem. Perhaps she isn't a narc, and has just adopted those behaviours. If that is the case there is hope that she can change.

My random post earlier about my LD daughter was relevant to this thread, sorry I didn't explain. Dd's experience showed that the pathways that a developing child maps out because it made their life easier, are able to be re-routed back to the motorway. That change is possible in a neurological sense, even when it seems there is long term adaptive behaviour.

One of the reasons we should steer clear of labels.

From whom? Who has she adapted those behaviours from? Her father was a narc but we split when she was little.

My point is that the dd was also trapped in that situation - a child (even if a teen). Perhaps you could have shut the windows and not looked at her? It doesn't trigger anything for me - the kid was subjected to something alarming and frightening for 11 minutes . That is a very long time.

Meerka - thank you. My mum had quite a stressful and abusive childhood and I think got used to being the centre of attention due to striking good looks. She seems the type to seek out abusive relationships and I think those exercebated it.

My sister is the type who will pretend to choke or start crying for a trivial reason if she is not the centre of attention but she doesn't of the scripting thin and I wouldn't say she was a narc though definite traits..

Her daughter, my niece still a child has been brought up to to be the centre of attention and will sit at the table screaming (age 11)if we have a conversation about old acquaintances she doesn't know etc. her parents ensure she "wins" any game she plays with my own children who are a bit older. My sister is also insanely jealous of any successes my own children have, especially in show biz type things which her daughter is bring prepared for a career in - with my children it is just a hobby. She does try her best to hide it though.

yeeeesh what a nightmare ... lucky you have been able to escape some of it, abitannoyed ... at least you're not walking down the same path. Hard to handle though with your sister and her daughter :s

A note about FLEAS: just my view, but there's the old phrase 'fake it til you make it'. If someone acts in the characteristic patterns of narcissism, I wonder if or perhaps how long it is before that can harden into their personality and they actually become narcissistic? Over years / decades?

my daughter was married to a total amazing wonderful smiling man, he was so "wonderful" and "loved " her so much, he joked when he brought her a compass so he "would never lose her".20 years later, her life was destroyed, financially- she worked so hard, wanting to appease his "needs" and keep him happy (he could never "find the job most suited to his high level abilities?)he managed to isolate her and my grandchildren ,brought to her knees mentally and physically , he certainly was too good to be true. be aware. a true narcissist will NEVER accept that they are wrong, only the rest of the world. live by their rules or vengeance will be theirs.run a mile, there is no treatment for them.

Springy, just out of interest, are you saying your daughter was born a narcissist and there has been nothing that pushed her in that direction?

lifestory I am sorry, it must have been awful to watch this happen to your daughter. I hope you can both find some peace now.

Meerka I think the 'if you don't feel it fake it' is part of therapy and does work. The affirmations will stick but my belief is that the behaviours and responses can change if you want them to, regardess of age or experience. However if you don't see your faults or want to change you can't. Trouble with narcs is that they don't want to see their own behaviour. This can happen where people have other disordered thought processes such as autism or learning difficulties. I'm definitely of the opinion that anyone can change if they want to. Ever the optimist, me...

I must say I find it almost impossible to tolerate children who are pushy and spoilt - I always end up being quite snippy with them and am surprised at adults that just let it happen and put it down to 'personality'. Surely you have to teach your children the effect of their behaviour on others?

A special mention on this thread to the passing of Joan Fontaine, who starred in the Hitchcock thriller Gaslight, from which the term 'gaslighting' got its name.

Surely you have to teach your children the effect of their behaviour on others? totally agree here !! Suspect most of the problem with people who are entitled is that they are not taught this

Hmm. I reckon it's nowhere near as simple as teaching children. When we were little, my brother and I tried pulling the legs off some frogs to see what happens. An adult told us why we shouldn't do that. I stopped it. He carried on. Throughout childhood he was the charming little boy who always made money, who had to be pulled off one of the younger kids while strangling them, and who committed burglaries from about 15yo. He got away with everything. He's now well-off and influential. He's my brother; I'm aware of his many loveable qualities, but I wouldn't want to be involved with him either romantically or financially.

... but, yes, of course we do have to help children develop empathy. Starting with teaching them to share & not hit other kids, we keep on doing that until theory of mind is fully developed, which isn't complete until the early twenties. Some kids will only partially learn it; some will learn it intellectually, never feeling it; some parents don't even try to teach their kids.

I am not sure that a child who wasn't taught empathy would go on to be a sociopath. They might be selfish and overbearing, etc, but they'd still have the mental capacity for empathy and would, I presume, be able to catch up when they realised why they were unpopular. Or they might choose not to!

Professor Dent - that film came out in 1944. How chilling that this has gone on almost unnoticed for 70 years.

agreed garlic that every child is different and sometimes teaching does not stick. But without teaching, it's less likely that kids develop empathy, surely. Some will, but fewer.

mind you, talking kids within normal range here.

Empathy is a luxury which comes after survival. I don't think it matters if you are taught it or not, but if you're actively taught not to have it, that survival depends on rejecting empathy, then of course you are more likely to squash it down. But I know of more than one person who grew up in a neglectful and/or abusive household and yet have empathy as adults - I think it's something that is either there or not, and thankfully I think that the majority of people do have it.

The more I look into development the less impact I am convinced that parents actually have on their offspring. That's quite a worrying thought, as a parent!

Outside of abuse, I mean, because of course this impacts hugely on children.

Agreed, Bertie. According to my reading, what we call empathy is a late development, in terms of evolution, which is why it completes quite slowly. Empathy is necessary for the survival of a community. In a world of psychopaths, everybody would be too busy getting one over on everybody else to actually create much. Since humans are pretty poor animals physically, we achieve strength by working in large groups. Mutual care is necessary for the success of the group.

Compassion goes along with that, but is probably a slightly different thing since other creatures - most mammals, anyway - display compassion. My brother can feel compassion for people's hurt, but it doesn't give him any sleepless nights. People who hurt are weak & despicable. My dad - who was more open about his thought processes - certainly felt compassion AND enjoyed causing pain. You simply can't evaluate a sociopath according to 'normal' values.

In some ways, it's like insisting a person with a faulty heart could get fit if they trained - that's only true if the heart works properly; the damaged one will get overloaded. You can't train a person with faulty brain wiring to think or feel what they aren't equipped for.