Narcissists and their rages

[garlicbaubles]

For a number of reasons, I thought it might be a good idea to share our stories. I'll post one after this.

About 1 in 10 people have mental disorders, of a type that renders them incapable of seeing the world as others do. For them, all the world really is a stage: the men, women and children merely props for the drama going on in their heads. They can't see that things go on without their influence, or accept that other human beings feel & think independently. It's like the way young children think - and may well be caused by arrested emotional development.

For them, your every word and deed is scripted, by them. It's impossible to know exactly what your 'script' says. If you know them well, you can make a good guess but they will always surprise you by introducing another plot twist. (And anyway, who wants to live as a figment of somebody else's imagination?) When you step out of your appointed character - by having a thought or feeling of your own, for instance, or not being exactly where they wanted - they get terribly cross. It absolutely shakes their world; it's very distressing for them so they blame you for wrecking the world, like a temperamental director ranting at an opinionated actor.

The rage, the blame, the insults are never about you. Never. If you can manage to listen quietly, what you'll hear is this: "I wrote, cast and directed this scene. You're spoiling it for me!" You will also hear them tell you their insecurities - what they most dislike and fear about themselves, projected as if they were your faults, not theirs.

They usually forget what they said, or that they raged at all.
Please, do, share your stories of 'stepping out of character' and the Narcy rage that followed. You never know how many lightbulbs you might switch on

Loller, one poster was confused about bipolar, read some stuff and resolved her confusion. The conditions we're discussing - Personality Disorders - can be disabling but can also lead to riches, power and adulation. If you know someone who's been classed as disabled due to extreme narcissism, I'd be fascinated to hear about it. I'm always learning.

Hmm. It's a shame if that has been the case, because I know a few people with bipolar and while it is a horrible disorder that they really struggle with, it in no way makes them a bad person.

Narcissm, on the other hand... I am loathe to say that people with narcisissm are "bad people" just because I feel that's unfair, but the disorder does seem to cause sufferers to act in ways which are hugely damaging to those around them, and for that reason I can totally see why a support thread is relevant.

I have not read every post but I believe that BPD on its own hasn't been spoken about negatively, only that BPD in conjunction with NPD is a pretty disastrous mix, much as, for example, NPD and alcoholism is a disastrous mix.

You've clearly never been on the receiving end then...

You're right, Folk, I haven't. But being treated badly by someone with a psychiatric condition does not, in my opinion, give anyone the right to be openly hostile about every individual with that diagnosis. I might feel differently if I had been raised by/married to a narc though, I do understand that.

If you know someone who's been classed as disabled due to extreme narcissism, I'd be fascinated to hear about it. I'm always learning.

You come across as very passive aggressive - are you aware of that?

And by my understanding, disability status of NPD is dependent on severity and on comorbidity.

the disorder does seem to cause sufferers to act in ways which are hugely damaging to those around them, and for that reason I can totally see why a support thread is relevant

Not only relevant but vital. Of course people should be able to compare experiences and feel the sense of relief that comes with realising that "I'm not the only one - it's not just me." But to me, snide comments are a step too far.

I think if you knew garlic it would be clearer that the post wasn't meant to be PA - she genuinely is interested in narcisissm and is interested in new information on the topic. I've been "around" on these boards for about five years and she was one of the first people to introduce it to me. I don't think it was meant as a jibe.

Thank you, Bertie. Lollerskates, I'm sorry that you can't read an honest comment without seeing malice. And that wasn't passive-aggressive either. Sometimes words mean what they say.

actually there is (understandably) a tone of loathing for people with PDs. Similar to the tone that's been used against gay people / mentally ill people in the past (there's some argument as to whether PDs are mental illness or not but for most intents they're treated the same way).

It is understandable, but that undercurrent has been there.

Have I come across that way, Meerka?

Was about to post, then pressed refresh to see that others have commented in the same vein...

It was this post upthread that prompted me [though others too];

It is difficult if not impossible to change these people or treat then - despite what some would have you believe - indeed the current way is to elicit sympathy for the sufferer of the PD - when actually the people needing all the sympathy are the real sufferers - the people who have to deal with the PDed person

Some of us have been driven to suicidal attempts and had our lives ruined by PDed people - so don't come and tell us we are disablist

While I do understand the impact on those around a person with a PD, I can't think of anything else where the sufferer has so much blame and scorn heaped upon them.

They have no control over it any more than someone with type1 diabetes would have, is it because the 'symptoms' aren't nice for others that they get this attitude towards them with no/little understanding or sympathy?

Whether they are born or 'made' Im not sure, but if 'made' then I presume it is at an early age when they have no personal influence?

Are people assuming that someone with a PD is so self absorbed that they won't care anyway?

I just thinks it's odd and not congruent with modern attitudes of understanding towards MH issues.

Meerka I have been nodding at lots of your posts.

You've come across as being on a voyage of discovery over the sometimes very polluted sea of PDs (yes Im probably being unfair there to people with PDs as well! ) I would actually say the dislike has been around less since you happened to start posting. The dislike did leap out at me more the first couple of pages on this thrread. I think you've spoken your mind and you've been willing to actually discuss matters.

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Again, it is very understandable why people develop such intense dislike. You suffer badly at the hands of someone, next person you meet with the same traits, you are going to have negative reactions.

I want to make it clear that I too am tired to the back teeth of dealing with family / others with PDs. But some people are willing to try to change and for those, I have more time .... though from a distance. I just don't want to be on the receiving end of rages, someone telling me I've got the traits that somehow seem waaaaay more appropriate to them themselves, and general meannesses. Even people who are really trying hard can be bloody hard work.

The trouble with general loathing of a whole class of people is that then the individual is lost.

amber I like your post a lot.

I would just say myself though that I do think a lot of people with PDs have some choice. Sometimes over the smallest of things within themselves. Mostly (if I've read it right) actually these PDs tend to develop in adolescence and early adulthood when people have reached the age of some reason.

In the early stages there is, I believe, the choice to manipulate or not manipulate. If the manipulation is rewarded with success, hello, they do it again. As time goes on and the pattern continues, it becomes harder to change until the point does come that they simply can't.

But someone posted that their mother, who literally threw herself on the floor in a temper tantrum and her husband believed she couldn't control herself, suddenly managed to avoid doing it again when someone said they'd film it and post it on You-tube. Now my female relative could not have controlled herself for long. But she did manage some self-control for a short time when I was around becuase she knew that I'd leave. Over the years though, as no one else stood up to her, she got worse and worse and worse. Given enough reason, some, perhaps most, people with PDs can manage something, but they desperately need the boundaries that perhaps they fight so hard against.

Yes - nodding like mad at your post, Meerka. Amber, I think there were a few posters early on who had some misconceptions.

It has taken fucking forever, and a fortune I daren't total in therapist fees, to figure out what went on in my life and what do about it. I'm not done yet, either - and can't afford any more professional guidance! Mumsnet provided a powerful force for change, and source of knowledge. I'd hate to think this resource might censor itself out of existence.

I have more or less just been an observer to this thread.
I think, and I could well be wrong, that narcs never know they have it? And therefore cannot be bothered by this thread?
But the people affected by it are massively affected by it.
Again, I could be wrong, but I thought that this thread was merely swapping stories.
Much like a thread on the Mental Health board which asks for help in living with a spouse or partner with depression?

Golddigger - yes you're right.

I was thinking about this thread while I was cooking, and I need to apologise. I have no idea what it's like to live with a narc - I've never even encountered one (not knowingly anyway). I was looking at it from the POV that NPD is a recognised psychiatric disorder and nobody would choose to have a personality disorder, so... I don't know. I wasn't advocating sympathy, exactly; and obviously nobody in their right mind would condemn anyone in a relationship with someone with NPD for leaving and getting as far away as they could.

FGS. I'm making a pig's ear of this, so I'll just say I'm sorry.

How do you know if someone is a narc?

I think my sister must be one, although apparently she is borderline schizophrenic I am pretty sure this isn't the case, it just doesn't fit with her personality at all.

Do you mean Garlic do they qualify for DLA as in disabled Garlic? I would not think so?
NPD is a very celeb type disorder as you usually are very good looking and get lots of attention....I can see why in USA they did not want to lose this and be relabelled sociopath with NPD traits....as it makes them sound dangerous....trouble is a sociopath without NPD traits isnt really always dangerous! It is the impulsive behaviours and rage that makes the sociopath dangerous that is Narc traits. I think they should have kept NPD seperate too! It is a big enough problem on its own! Unless you are automatically a sociopath/psychopath to have Narc traits? This to me says Narc is far far worse than all the others!?

I cant remember which top writer it was but they talked about all the different types of ASPDs ie paranoid, schizoid etc but they said the Narcissitic psychopath was far the most dangerous. Wish I could remember where I read it as would thread it! Garlic did you have it and sent it to me ages ago? Does that ring a bell?

Meerka if their is a tone and in my case yes it is directed at my ex from years of being the revenge victim where I was constantly blamed and attacked (home, cyber). Though after 10 years the CCTV has now halted his behaviour! I dread to think what would have happened without getting CCTV mind you!

Does anyone else think though that to gaslight the person has to have very good cognitive skills to think up such fruitful experiences...I mean they dont just read a book on it and learn it...it is something they just do! I could not dream up such situations I have experienced or heard on here and other places!

Graceful post, loller, thanks :)

CCTV, I don't know what it was you read ... I've read so much stuff on it! You have really, really suffered with your ex; he isn't anybody's idea of normal. I agree, there's a lot of creative power going to waste in disordered minds. I used to tell XH2 he was very creative - I meant it properly, but he got really annoyed! I guess 'creative' wasn't in his fantasy version of himself

Thanks Meerka.

Good point and one that I agree with re elements of choice/control. I wonder how much of that is influenced by environment [family etc]? like if certain behaviors are challenged or indulged.

garlic, yeah I know most comments were early on, Ive only just read the whole thread though, so sorry for raking it up again! I do think that there is a tendency for those attitudes generally though.

I don't think that discussion should be censored, I know it is helpful, but I do think people should be aware of how it can come across.

I'm glad you said that you don't 'believe' in evil and wickedness, I don't either. But they are terms that are used often in such discussions, they imply intent and choice. Is that correct? Not necessarily IMO.

I do think that narcissism is over 'diagnosed' [by people in no way qualified] typically when exiting a damaging relationship, or when examining a dysfunctional childhood/parental relationship. IMO most people given that 'diagnosis' probably aren't narcissistic, but just following a pattern of dysfunction passed down from their family. This sort of analysis is positive though I think, as it can break the pattern.

When I read these threads I see lots of things that I recognise in my EX, I don't think he is a narc though, although his superiority complex has made me wonder. Mainly though I think he is the way he is due to his relationship with his mother and her neglect of him in some ways [he would protest that fiercely though] particularly emotionally.

He was/is emotionally cold/incapable and untrusting [especially of women] and I think that is due to the above and a deep sense of insecurity.

He would project and gaslight, but it was always so obvious to me! [hope that doesn't sound like I think I'm really clever/superior-it just was really obvious] it drove me to distraction sometimes, but I knew it wasn't ever really about me

I could easily convince myself he is a narc though, but I would be ignoring the obvious if I did.

Hope that makes sense, had to keep stopping to think as Ive got a cold and I feel dizzy!

My dad veils his narcissistic tendencies with a show for outsiders. He is generous to a fault and by the way he talks you'd think he was the father of the year.

When he talks to me on the phone, I can hear him thinking about what to say next. He doesn't hear or see me. He never did.

The clever facade makes me feel like I am mad. Is the true nature of a narcissist one of pride in their self centredness or can they be highly passive aggressive and manipulative?

The talking on the phone observation was just a metaphor btw.

GimmedeB how dou know if someone is a narc?

this thread here page 9 explains the criteria the person needs to have to meet the diagnosis of Narc.

@garlic
my df was the scapegoat all my childhood for ruining her life. Their marriage was v unhappy but when he filed for divorce she could not tolerate it and was v vindictive. I am now the scapegoat...if there are tensions in the family she always blames me. Good point re my kids. I don't care if i am excluded but when my kids are by extension, it is v upsetting. Otoh, i don't want them caught up in this. On the showy aspect, dm cares most about creating set piece family dinners rather than just spending time with me or the kids. She was complaining that there were particular named shows she wanted to take dd to but i also wanted to take dd to. I was getting all the special moments. I said we could go together. That silenced her.
Someone else asked about dm's childhood. Her df left the family when she was born and went on to have a 2nd family in much more comfortable circumstances so she literally was the poor relation. She ran away from her dm's home to her df's home when she was 15 and he called the police rather than take her in, even for a night. So she has reasons for her behaviour.
As to the discussion re disablist or whatever. I found it really helpful to understand i was on the receiving end of someone with pd because her modus was to make it seem like iwbu etc.

Logged in to say thank you for this fascinating and insightful discussion - for me the bit about the eyes was very useful, as I had this 'treatment' - could only be described as evil - from a member of my local community earlier this year and it left me feeling more than a little violated. Seeing her with fresh eyes as someone with a personality disorder has helped me to detach from this.