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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

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Narcissists and their rages

308 replies

garlicbaubles · 07/12/2013 16:04

For a number of reasons, I thought it might be a good idea to share our stories. I'll post one after this.

About 1 in 10 people have mental disorders, of a type that renders them incapable of seeing the world as others do. For them, all the world really is a stage: the men, women and children merely props for the drama going on in their heads. They can't see that things go on without their influence, or accept that other human beings feel & think independently. It's like the way young children think - and may well be caused by arrested emotional development.

For them, your every word and deed is scripted, by them. It's impossible to know exactly what your 'script' says. If you know them well, you can make a good guess but they will always surprise you by introducing another plot twist. (And anyway, who wants to live as a figment of somebody else's imagination?) When you step out of your appointed character - by having a thought or feeling of your own, for instance, or not being exactly where they wanted - they get terribly cross. It absolutely shakes their world; it's very distressing for them so they blame you for wrecking the world, like a temperamental director ranting at an opinionated actor.

The rage, the blame, the insults are never about you. Never. If you can manage to listen quietly, what you'll hear is this: "I wrote, cast and directed this scene. You're spoiling it for me!" You will also hear them tell you their insecurities - what they most dislike and fear about themselves, projected as if they were your faults, not theirs.

They usually forget what they said, or that they raged at all.
Please, do, share your stories of 'stepping out of character' and the Narcy rage that followed. You never know how many lightbulbs you might switch on Wink

OP posts:
Thosecrazyinlaws · 14/12/2013 00:05

I have lots of examples about my MIL, but have been thinking lots about my grandma, and am going to share one episode in particular.

My poor mum was most definitely the scapegoat of the family, she was kept off school by my grandma to do the cleaning and look after her siblings and she had to stay at home while her sister got took to dance classes and for trips out. She has always as long as I've been aware of it been scared of her mum, has pandered to her mood swings and just generally let her mother rule her life even when she had a family of her own.

I remember this particular rage so vividly, I was at college and had a Saturday job in a place around 3/4 of an hour from home. My mum would often pick me up after work to save me getting the bus and we would sometimes go shopping or for a bite to eat. This particular day my mum was worried because she was giving her mum a lift to the pub, she was rushing me and it was winding me up so I pushed her on it and instead of rushing round I insisted we take our time.

When we got to my grandma's about 15 minutes after she was due to be picked up she flew out to the car, got in and immediately set on my mum. How she had ruined her night, 'her' table at the pub would be gone now, there was no point in going. I kept interjecting, calmly, on my mum's behalf (winding her up no end I realise now) about how we weren't very late, mum was entitled to enjoy herself every now and then and was good enough to be giving her a lift. She was raging 'it's nothing to do with you, I'm not talking to you, tell her to shut up'. Then I mentioned again my grandma should be grateful, that my mum did more for her than all her feckless sons did put together and she swung around in the car seat, and it was the same furious eyes others have described.

Before that day I had her card marked as an extremely selfish woman, but it made me see her in a whole new light. I was shocked she could get that overwrought about something so seemingly trivial. She had not got her way, I was daring to talk back, she could not control the situation and she just lost all sense of perspective. I didn't have any contact with her for months after.

middleclassdystopia · 14/12/2013 00:09

My adoptive father would glaze over, get this dead look in his eyes and just rant.

One time he shouted "you're just a fake and a phoney and the only reason you've got friends is because they don't know the real you!"

Shock
Thosecrazyinlaws · 14/12/2013 00:21

middleclass My MIL does that to my partner Sad. If people knew what he was really like they would have nothing to do with him, that I won't put up with him and will leave him because he is so hard to live with.

garlicbaubles · 14/12/2013 01:02

he shouted "you're just a fake and a phoney and the only reason you've got friends is because they don't know the real you!" - Pound to a penny that was projection, middleclass. He's talking about himself.

So sorry your partner hears it from his mother, too, crazy. I hope he has enough detachment, now, to see it for what it is - it can be very hard to achieve, but a life-saver when you do. Your story about your mother & grandmother was incredibly vivid. Your poor mum!

OP posts:
garlicbaubles · 14/12/2013 01:11

Happytalk, what a dreadful experience for you.

I recognise this very clearly: her anguish of being accused of thinking more about herself than what I was going through ... I was denying her supporting me - in fact, are you my sister?! My mother cares so intensely about how much she cares about me that psychiatrists have TWICE acted to get me out of her tender loving care clutches! I know it genuinely does make her happy to help, but have to be ever so careful about how far I let her in. It's not a thing you can discuss that often, is it? "My mum cares so much, it makes me mentally ill ..." Hmm

OP posts:
halfwayupthehill · 14/12/2013 02:16

Glad to have come across this thread and some interesting insights. A therapist told me a few years ago that my dm was a narc. I wasn't sure but wd be interested to hear your views as yesterday she embarked on an amazing rant which i will share after some background. Dm unhappy childhood, rejected by father. Married young, unhappy marriage, though was devoted to me and dsis. Eventually after 40 yrs df got fed up of being ignored, moved abroad. I moved abroad for work and my previously good relationship with dm began to founder...she began to cut me out. Df filed for divorce and she became very vindictive, lied to the court, got a settlement which left df in poverty and broke his health while she and new boyfriend lived life of riley. I don't blame her for wanting to be free of df but the way she divorced him was horrific. I stayed neutral but as i didn't take her side, she turned against me more. When i had dc1 she took offence because i held the christening where we lived abroad. I tried to repair relationship due to dc1 but it was v strained. I moved back to uk. I then had dc2. It was a home birth and dm was looking after dc1 upstairs. It went wrong, i had a postpartum hemmorage and was rushed to hospital. Where i spent a day while dm looked after dc1 at home and did a great job of clearing up the blood with her boyfriend. I was suffering ptsd which i did not know at the time. Dm collected me and dc2 from hospital and took us home. She then went to get dc1 from neighbour. I went upstairs with dc2, they all came back, dc1 came upstairs to my bedroom. I shut the door so i could enjoy being reunited with dc1 and enjoy her seeing dc2 for first time. One minute later, dm and boyfriend crashed through the door. I didn't want dc1 to be distracted from this special moment so put my hand up to indicate they shd wait. Five mins later, i went down and they left because i had caused such great offence. They then did not speak to me for 18 months even when i handdelivered a letter trying to explain the situation and apologise.
Relations warmed up to cool but cordial. I invited dm and partner over for xmas, xmas or boxing day whichever suited. Vague nonresponse. She then invited me for boxing day and I then found out that the rest of the family were spending xmas ten mins away at dsis. This follows me and dc not being invited to dnephew's first bday despite her always having been invited to my kids.
I followed up my boxing day invite to dm and she said i should go to hers because then dsis wd be there and the cousins cd be together. I did not say that the cousins cd be together if we had been invited by dsis on xmas day. Dsis usually spends xmas with ils hence i had not invited her to mine. But i said to dm I was happy to invite dsis to me for boxing day with dm.
She then accused me of being difficult. I said, how? I wasn't the one excluding people. I said i had found the divorce had made things strained between us at first but i was hoping things wd continue to improve. I said it was hard because df was dying and then the rant started:

  • SHE was dying (not true)
  • i had been terrible in motioning her away after she came into my bedroom after i came out of hospital. I tried to explain that i had wanted a few mins alone with the children, that i had nearly died, had ptsd etc not to mention had just given birth and her response was that she and her boyfriend had had a hard weekend when i had given birth. So i said she was making it all about her and the rant went on and on...how i never accepted her invites..which ones? One for a family lunch when i had already accepted an invite to a friend-s 70th ("so that's where yout priorities lie!") and one on boxing day..she ignored the fact that I had invited her to me that day six weeks previously.
Anyway, some themes upthread were interesting. I am being made a scapegoat, also the whole family system is dysfunctional, my mother clearly has issues around rejection and will become incensed when she perceives she is rejected eg when df filed for divorce (even though she had been unhappy for years); or when i move abroad for work or want 5 mins alone postpartum. It is hard to go nc because of the kids but at the same time i honestly think she is mentally ill as she is so unable to see another's point of view. She flings wild generalisations around, gaslights and has never ever admitted she might be wrong in some way.
halfwayupthehill · 14/12/2013 02:29

She has often called me selfish and during her rant accused me of calling her selfish which i hadn't. Such a lot of projection.

garlicbaubles · 14/12/2013 12:40

I think you are absolutely right: your mother clearly has issues around rejection and will become incensed when she perceives she is rejected. The fact that she becomes terminally ill when you mention your father's illness shows how essential it is for her to be the adored star of any show - please excuse my referring to this tragic event as a 'show'; I'm thinking of your mother's psychological pov.

She's probably not mentally ill, so much as mentally disrupted. As you say, she's unable to see any other point of view - and enhances her personal viewpoint with fabrications. It's awfully sad that a lifetime of rejection has done this to her, but there's no hope of undoing it while she is locked in her fantasy. I imagine you can find ways of pandering safely to her needs, but I'd advise caution regarding your children's relationships with her. Teenagers can usually grasp the nature of such dysfunctions, at least enough to make their own choices about the relationship, but younger kids are easily manipulated and haven't got the tools to handle complex adult emotions. She was devoted to you & your sister, but now you're her scapegoat - who had this role while you were growing up? Will she be as lovely to your DC while you are the scapegoat, and is this a scenario you can support?

OP posts:
frumpypigskin · 14/12/2013 13:03

As far as I know I've only come across one person who may have been narcissistic. I had never heard of the term before meeting her but she seemed to label everyone she came up against as narcissistic i.e. her mother, our boss, other people in the workplace who challenged her.

Is this a narcissistic trait or does this sound like a different mental health issue? she was incredibly hard work and couldn't seem to see the world in the same way as the people around her and would feel very personally attacked when challenged. She would get very angry and feel she had to fight to be vindicated. She took our boss to a tribunal (which she lost) and when she became ill she said 'maybe (our boss) will see she should have been nicer to me' which I thought was very odd.

I am sure there was a mental health issue but have never come across anyone like her before. Does this sound like narcissism?

Meerka · 14/12/2013 13:09

not as such, from what I know (have a look here www.lightshouse.org/index.html#axzz2lOp91lSf or at the MIND website). There is not really enough information to tell.

It does sound like she had some pretty serious problems. Assuming everyone you meet is narcissistic / has MH problems if they disagree with you is a fairly suspicious trait in the first place. So is taking everything personally. I see that more as an insecurity thing actually. Also trying to gain the moral high ground by saying her boss should have been nicer. Not seeing things the same way tends to indicate more of a perception problem, which could be a PD thing or aspergers traits perhaps ... there are some people who do simply see things differently though.

Clearly something was wrong, but hard to say exactly what.

Meerka · 14/12/2013 13:12

halfwayupthehill's mother sounds more narcissitic .. specially if a good therapist suspected that.

Not saying your work colleague was -not- narcissistic but from what you say it doesn't jump out as that particular disorder

happytalk13 · 14/12/2013 13:28

Garlic - I would have loved a sibling! Smile

CCTVmum · 14/12/2013 14:19

Nassicism in pure form is rarer than as a trait of other disorders.

My ex is a psychopath with narcisstic traits esp the rage.

He was raised by his nan from 6 months old whilst his mum went back to work. The nan a paranoid schizophrenic would convince ex the water was poisoned and radio waves were Being used by aliens, this must have effected him? Then he was made to call his mum Mrs ..... at 4 yrs old when she was his class teacher...she still spoke to him like a 5 yr old when in his 30s no wonder ex was so fragile...makes me kinda feel very sorry for him and not blame him as his childhood was not his fault! Nor the genes as definitly Aspergers too like ds.

CCTVmum · 14/12/2013 14:38

halfway your mum sounds so demanding and draining. Do you know anything about her childhood that could have contributed to her behaviours?

Have you read this blog ? This man has NPD. A rareity as usually the person does no recognise any problems they have. I found it very helpful.

Garlic I learn so much when you restart these threads as we get interesting discussions going!

MNHQ was it the people with NPD who protested on MN? Because same thing happened when they removed NPD from DSM-V huge protests from Narcs as they were losing their status! That was not a joke btw! Very passionate and devoted to their disorder!

UA lovely to see one of your posts...how you doing?

passedgo · 14/12/2013 15:27

So what do you do about a narc in a position of power, eg in a voluntary organisation, pushing themselves forward and chewing up everyone in their path? And what if they put on a very good disguise and get everyone on side (their tenacity is far stronger and they seem to be quite smart)?

I seem to come across this all the time.

Meerka · 14/12/2013 15:50

Very sadly, Im not sure there is much you can do. The only thing that -maybe- you can do is go to the top boss or the board of directors, if they have one, and bring it up.

But you are very unlikely to get anywhere.

sadly, and I hate to say it, the best option is to either squeeze them out in the very early days if you detect them, or put your energies elsewhere.

:(

garlicbaubles · 14/12/2013 18:25

I managed to get my textbook-narc boss fired. But I lost more than he did. I don't consider it was worth the battle; I should have left while I still had confidence and a good reputation.

You're right about the protests from people diagnosed with NPD, when it was removed from the DSM, CCTV! I'd forgotten that! How very narcissistic of them ... Wink Now they're just sociopaths with narcissistic traits. Poor them.

OP posts:
Meerka · 14/12/2013 18:44

Therés one thing about it garlic, at least the people in your company won't be suffering any more.

pumpkinsweetie · 14/12/2013 19:01

Very insightfull post op x

lollerskates · 14/12/2013 19:10

I had no idea how much loathing there is for people with bipolar disorder. Eye opening thread.

lollerskates · 14/12/2013 19:13

I am blown away that a thread for posters to slag off people with a disability has been allowed to stand this long. Amazing.

BertieBowtiesAreCool · 14/12/2013 19:17

Bipolar isn't the same thing as narcissism.

Golddigger · 14/12/2013 19:22

Are people with narc classed as having a disability?

FolkGirl · 14/12/2013 19:24

loller You've clearly never been on the receiving end then...

lollerskates · 14/12/2013 19:31

Bipolar isn't the same thing as narcissism.

I know that. Some PP apparently do not.