Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Narcissists and their rages

308 replies

garlicbaubles · 07/12/2013 16:04

For a number of reasons, I thought it might be a good idea to share our stories. I'll post one after this.

About 1 in 10 people have mental disorders, of a type that renders them incapable of seeing the world as others do. For them, all the world really is a stage: the men, women and children merely props for the drama going on in their heads. They can't see that things go on without their influence, or accept that other human beings feel & think independently. It's like the way young children think - and may well be caused by arrested emotional development.

For them, your every word and deed is scripted, by them. It's impossible to know exactly what your 'script' says. If you know them well, you can make a good guess but they will always surprise you by introducing another plot twist. (And anyway, who wants to live as a figment of somebody else's imagination?) When you step out of your appointed character - by having a thought or feeling of your own, for instance, or not being exactly where they wanted - they get terribly cross. It absolutely shakes their world; it's very distressing for them so they blame you for wrecking the world, like a temperamental director ranting at an opinionated actor.

The rage, the blame, the insults are never about you. Never. If you can manage to listen quietly, what you'll hear is this: "I wrote, cast and directed this scene. You're spoiling it for me!" You will also hear them tell you their insecurities - what they most dislike and fear about themselves, projected as if they were your faults, not theirs.

They usually forget what they said, or that they raged at all.
Please, do, share your stories of 'stepping out of character' and the Narcy rage that followed. You never know how many lightbulbs you might switch on Wink

OP posts:
castlesintheair · 10/12/2013 16:52

sparky2/garlic, same here Grin

Meerka · 10/12/2013 17:41

garlic just for the record, I do (unfortunately) know what people with PD are like, I've had a lot more experience than I want with people who've been clinically diagnosed and in some cases given specialist in patient treatment. Some have been able to change, some not.

Also had someone in the family with ... well god, I don't know what it was at the end, started out with severe BPD (again, clinically assessed) and by the time of her death 40 years later I truly believe it was narcissist, histrionic and BPD ... along with, im afraid, a good dose of sheer wickedness.

Her rages were terrifying.

It's the over-generalizations and a lot of amateur diagnoses that I find rather annoying.

having said that I really, really understand directly how people feel who've gone thru hell with someone with a PD or else who are sheerly behaving in an evil way. Sometimes people call thigns PD when they actually mean plain wicked behaviour, I think

No way am I minimizing people's experience .. or just how manipulative some folk are.

Blurry29 · 10/12/2013 18:11

Oh my god...you just described my dad Hmm

garlicbaubles · 10/12/2013 18:20

YY, thanks for that, Meerka. As it happens, I don't believe in 'evil' or 'wicked'. There are degrees of self-centredness, is all, and misguided thoughts. Some people can't help their world view being markedly different from the norm, and are unable feel their emotions 'normally'. Some PDs are disabling, others lead to power & adulation.

The diagnosis is irrelevant in everyday life - when I win a client who displays narcy tendencies, I'm not asking myself how to get him to a psychiatrist for evaluation! I want to get a picture of the drama in his head asap, so as to decide whether I can work with him. For occasions like this, it helps to know the patterns of thought & behaviour associated with various types of personality dysfunction. Were I to relate to him as an emotionally rounded adult I'd be wrong, he would rage and I'd lose money (has happened, I'm not that smart!)

Similarly, if a bloke chats me up and seems a little off-kilter in ways that I now associate with a PD, I quit. It's not my duty to determine whether he's clinically disordered; my duty is to myself.

Castles & sparky - Grin and Blush

OP posts:
Meerka · 10/12/2013 18:26

nods I guess having some clue as to how people tick is really useful if you have to work closely with them as clients!

and yes to the bloke, heh. Funny how out bullshit detectors only seem to really develop to high level of sensitivity once we've had to put up with way too much. Wish we were born with them, it would save SO much trouble

garlicbaubles · 10/12/2013 18:35

Oh, wouldn't it!

OP posts:
KingRollo · 10/12/2013 18:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Meerka · 10/12/2013 19:11

I woudl say it's certainly jerk behaviour. Its nearly impossible to say if theres a PD involved or not, and honestly, please leave it for the professionals to decide!

The key to a personality disorder is a number of inflexible and maladaptive behaviours, long lasting. Which particular behaviours decide which particular diagnosis the person's given. The depth of the behaviours is, as far as I can see, what makes the difference between a normal-range personality trait and a mild, moderate or severe PD.

I really think a lot of people just choose to behave like arses though. They -could- change but won't. Maybe your ex is one of these.

Even some people with PDs can change, though the popular perceptoin is that they can't. The key is two fold: firstly the will to change and after that, the support and ability.

Narcissists seem to generally lack the first. Some people with other PDs lack the second. Various coping strategies can help but only if they're willing to try them :/

Your bloke sounds, on the face of it, simply to be chronically immature and spoiled.

bunchoffives · 11/12/2013 00:15

It's in the charity sector I find the worst kind of narcs. Bloody terrifying some of them. Volunteers with zero accountability, responsibility that has been taken rather than earned, delusions of grandeur all fitting into the perfect package of 'helping' the disadvantaged and thereby wielding a lot of power over people when they really shouldn't be anywhere near them.

Wondering That's the first time I've come across someone saying that, but blimey I couldn't agree more. I had the misfortune to go on one of these charity wish trips and I have never seen so many little hitlers jostling for power and dominance, insisting you followed their plans, schedules and rhetorical scripts to the letter - even to the extent of telling parents how they felt about their offspring having the benefit of their wonderful charitable efforts and congratulating themselves to the parents Quite funny once you've escaped.

AndTheBandPlayedOn · 11/12/2013 00:24

Narcissists in church...

annielewis · 11/12/2013 00:33

Marking place as have narc MIL and need to read this to remind myself of the reality...

wonderingagain · 11/12/2013 00:56

bunchoffives I refuse to work with a charity / voluntary group now unless it has a clear structure that doesn't enable egos to get too big. It is very frustrating when you are fighting for something important and someone waltzes in and does a bad job. Most people just want to sell a few crafts and do a sponsored walk, or actually help the beneficiaries of the charity but these people seem to find a community group an ideal opportunity to boss people about, use divisive tactics with people and can really ruin working relationships and everyone just gives up and moves on. Sometimes they can achieve great things, but quite often they are slightly off-kilter and can be quite damaging to the group. People like a leader that's the trouble, most people don't have the time or energy to contradict.

I used to interject but found the conflict far too stressful. Now I just walk away and join another group that's more democratic.

happytalk13 · 13/12/2013 15:53

Question: I realise this is just one statement and only provides a snapshot but what do people think of my mother saying to me: "It's been clear from a very young age that you have not loved and respected me. There's the door." This was in response to me answering her question about how I truly felt about my childhood (upshot of my response was that I often felt like I was nothing but an annoying burden to her and I often couldn't predict what would set off one of her annoyed episodes with me and it left me feeling unloved because it could be literally anything that would set her off - I could breathe the wrong way and she's be annoyed)

What do I make of that? We're NC now - she rang me up a couple of days later to tell me she was going NC with me. Or maybe I'm the Narc/disordered individual here....

spanky2 · 13/12/2013 16:04

My childhood too happytalk . I got into huge trouble for drinking my water too loudly Hmm . A level of constant fear of upsetting my mum. She has an awful temper.

happytalk13 · 13/12/2013 16:10

Were you a "difficult child" too, spanky? Hmm

Meerka · 13/12/2013 16:38

happytalk, I'm going to take your last comment seriously.

In truth its a good thing to question yourself in a good (not self-beating-up) sort of way. When you don't know if you can trust your own perceptions about yoruself, it really, really helps to have a couple of sensible, good- hearted but honest friends whom you can actually ask. It's a difficult question and certainly not one to ask just anyone. But if you do have some pragmatic, honest and perceptive friends, then ask two. If they both say the same-ish, then you can probably be fairly sure of what they say.

Then, of course, you probably have to do something about what they say - either try to accept that you're more ok than you thought :D or try to work on some of the aspects of yourself that could, in the long term, become destructive.

Because if there's one thing the kids of destructive parents don't want, it's to walk the same road. And it can be a danger. Not necessarily -is- a danger, but can be. It is a question worth considering, maybe only to dismiss it.

As to what I think of your mother's comment - I think that no very small children 'do not love or respect their mother'. But I also think that it sounds like there is a gigantic past history between you (well duh, I suppose, naturally there is). I think you yourself will know the truth better than anyone outside, and that you are posting here shows that you've lived with a huge amount of pain from the relationship with her.

happytalk13 · 13/12/2013 16:53

Thanks Meerka - I have asked a couple of friends before (both who have witnessed altercations between me and my mother) and they both say she's messed up...but still, I'm never quite certain. Some would say that my uncertainty is about my conditioning.

Not loving and respecting her from an early age - I don't actually have any nice memories early on, not really. My memories mainly consist of fights between her and my dad, me being blamed for upsetting her/causing her embarrassment/ruining my parents' relationship/asking her what I'd done wrong and her expecting me to know/daring to say something to someone about some aspect of my family life. If you ask her she can reel off hundreds of times where she showed me love and did things for me - I remember very little. The nice occasions that stick in my mind either happened when other people were around to witness it or when I was sick with stomach bugs - she was an excellent mum then - and she was always ok with friends coming to the house to play with me. But that's really it - I don't remember the feeling of closeness or safety - I just remember feeling that I was a bad child who was thoughtless and selfish. I remember thinking I must be a bad child because people were so often cross with me and giving me very angry looks or stomping around me or ignoring me or telling me how ungrateful I was. It makes me sad.

Meerka · 13/12/2013 17:04

Its very very possible that your uncertainty is from her conditioning of you. That's one of the worst of toxic folk, they get you doubting yourself to the core. How can you tell what's really the situation then?! Hence why a reality check from outside from sensible perceptive people really helps.

It sounds such a sad situation and childhood happytalk. I'm so sorry and hope you can find love within yourself and outside yourself too. Flowers

DisgraceToTheYChromosome · 13/12/2013 19:11

I was unfortunate enough to get between two narcissists who carried on a public argument over a period of years. One of them ran the voluntary group I was involved in, the other did his best to destroy it because it differed from his opinion and also Narc1 got more public exposure.

It ended in court, where Narc1 displayed PA cowardice and Narc2 utterly failed to comprehend the workings of justice, in particular admitting to serious offences in front of a live mike.

Once the case was over, I resigned and Narc1 took immediate steps to turn me into a non-person. Fine by me.

What isn't fine is that the .org (which does important charitable work) has been offered serious funding but Narc1 won't take it because the donor wants a proper management structure.

And it's only by reading Stately Homes and this thread that I've realised I threw 10 years and a fair bit of money away to no purpose. Bugger.

passedgo · 13/12/2013 19:30

@chromosomes - What's PA cowardice?

Happytalk - what you have done through your childhood is tread on eggshells. It's what abusive men do to their families and results in the victim living in a state of perpetual stress. Did this come from both your parents or just your mother?

happytalk13 · 13/12/2013 20:04

My mum...with my dad being the one to try to smooth it all over.

I suppose the biggest tantrum I've ever experienced is a toss up between two but I'll just go with one.

I was 20 and pregnant to a person I knew I would not continue a relationship with because he was an abusive dick. I lived away form home. I'd organised a termination. things came to a head with abusive dick and I had to go home, thus had to tell my parents. My mother was more concerned about what the neighbours would think and the fact that I'd told my best friend and it would get all over town. I tried to tell her how much that hurt me and that she'd in her usual way made me feel defective and dirty and she threw a massive tantrum over that and made herself into the victim, enlisting Dad's help at her anguish of being accused of thinking more about herself than what I was going through. Day of the termination came and I told her I didn't want her going with me. Another tantrum ensued with her getting almost hysterical that I wouldn't let her go with me and I was denying her supporting me - she again enlisted my dad who told me I was being a monster to her. I've never forgiven her for that. She denies it all though.

DisgraceToTheYChromosome · 13/12/2013 22:13

PA cowardice: once the case was under way Narc1 started backpedalling because it would mean an end to drama. The rest of the .org made it plain that it was a collective problem. Narc1 was told NOT to speak to Narc2, and actually grovelled to him when we lost the case. Narc2 of course started gloating. He soon shut up when I told him he had admitted fraud and impersonation.

The thing I now realise is that both of them were running on internal scripts that didn't mesh with reality. Narc1 was the perpetual victim of conspiracies, Narc2 was a lunatic whose 5 minute meeting with a junior minister had made him an industry spokesperson.

I really feel for those with narc families; at least I could dump my "friend".

DisgraceToTheYChromosome · 13/12/2013 22:14

Sorry, PA = passive aggressive.

Upcycled · 13/12/2013 23:11

I think my exH is one

Marking my place for when I feel the need to talk about it ( hopefully never).

Awesome thread.

That's the MN I like.

garlicbaubles · 13/12/2013 23:31

Don't take this too seriously, folks ... there's a couple of fun quizzes here: www.channel4.com/programmes/psychopath-night

My friend's husband scored 76%. On that basis, I'd say it could even be quite accurate for a pop quiz Shock

OP posts: