How can I get him to say sorry?

[birdsnotbees]

My DH never says sorry. Whenever we have a row or I pull him up on something, he immediately launches into a list of my "crimes", the upshot of which means I'm not allowed to criticise him. So this morning for example, he unfairly shouted at me as he was running late & stressed. I told him he was being unfair. He told me he I was grumpy in the morning so should "get over myself".

It happens over and over. I will happily confess to not being perfect. I don't actually nag him. And when I am wrong I say sorry & try and change my behaviour as a result. But he never does. He won't take responsibility for his own behaviour and just deflects all the time by trotting out a long long list of all the things I've ever done wrong.

I have tried tackling him when we're not arguing but he does the same. He can't see it. And it doesn't help that I've got to the point now that I quickly lose my temper when he does it- which he then twists into me being hysterical. I'm not but I am so fed up. It's getting to the point where I'm starting to question our relationship - over something that should be so small. I feel so bloody lonely.

If you've read this far, do you have any advice?

:( for you *birds. It sounds like you could do with some support.

My XP used to do things like this as well. He was an emotionally abusive bully. He used to take pride in never apologising for anything, and also used to launch unfounded character assassinations..they were usually phrased in the following way "you always...", "you never...". Does this way of talking sound familiar?

I echo others that his difficult childhood is not a reason for him to treat you badly.

What whatdoesittake said.

Ask him if he likes living like this. How would he like life to be? Does he think it sounds reasonable from someone else's point of view? (and if it sounds reasonable to you) How can you get there?

FFS Hissy, DV?? Harming my kids in the womb?? Er, well we weren't arguing like this when either of my kids were in the womb, thanks and honestly, talk about taking things to extreme.

I am not suffering from domestic violence. My husband is not some sort of nasty, domineering bully who has us all cowering in his wake. He has emotional issues, as I suspect most people do. I have had pyschotherapy in the past and am very aware of both my own issues and other people's.

My point is: we don't argue lots but WHEN WE DO, which is not a lot and which is not bloody DV when we do, he immediately goes on the attack.

My point is that after TEN YEARS of this I am no longer willing to let it go. That a relatively small thing that rears its head every month or less has now got to the point where I want to do something about it.

I HAVE NOT damaged my kids in the womb (!) because we didn't actually argue much before we had both kids. It was all pretty lovely. But the relentless grind of two young kids, me starting a business, my parents getting ill and my husband being low-level depressed has led to a situation where we snipe.

I snipe at him, he snipes at me. I apologise but he doesn't. I am now fed up with it.

I agree there is some gaslighting going on but it's not because he's some unsufferable bully but because he is fucked up. It is not my fault, no, but I need help and support in trying to get him to see that his behaviour is not normal and will eventually lead to the breakdown of my marriage.

What I don't need are people patronising me, telling me I've harmed my kids in the womb, telling me I am a victim of DV and gleefully jumping up and down proclaiming all men are shit and that my ONLY option is to LTB. Frankly, that's as bullying as the behaviour so accuse my husband of.

Chill out love!

I'm not the enemy here! Read my post properly. I never said you were harming your kids and I never said you were suffering dv.

What I said was to illustrate that them being asleep while you are arguing means fuck all.

I also said this to show you that the environment you are all living In is far from ideal.

Your H is not treating you with any respect, and he is showing them that this is what a dad/husband does.

You are pissing in the wind in your attempts to show them 'normal' as you capitulate for an easy life everytime his hackles go up.

Wake up and sort out your relationship. Make it a non-negotiable thing and don't compromise on the future of your kids because it's a bit hard for you to stand up to an ignorant bully.

Oh and all the insight in the world won't stop him being a bully to you.

Only HE can stop that.

He can stop it right now, today, this very second.

A normal person would have stopped it the first time they were told it upset another person.

History has a habit of repeating. Only your H can help himself. YOU however must act now to make this a priority for him, or your children will go on to repeat this in their own lives.

THAT is the only thing YOU can influence, what they are taught by who you allow to influence them.

"gleefully jumping up and down proclaiming all men are shit"

Nobody said ALL men were shit.

They just said that THIS man was an abusive bully.

Which he is.

But you want to fix him, so go ahead and try.

Depression doesn't cause you to bully your partner btw.

Being a bully causes that.

He does this cos he has learned to, and because he wants to.

And now your children are learning it too.

You say he won't back down if you leave him to his own devices whilst he's sulking - how do you know? Have you tried?

I would do it anyway, even if you suspect you will ultimately blink first, because it sends a message that you are not willing just to bite your tongue and put up with this shit any more.

The key thing, as previous posters have said, is not to get angry when he does, but calmly state and restate the fact his attitude is unacceptable.

Actually, one poster did say all men behave like this, and all women take it. Which is horseshit.

If you think that your "advice" is anything other than bullying, you are mistaken. If you actually wanted to help, you'd listen. But you're not listening to me, are you?. Come to think of it, you're not so far removed from my DH. Whom you clearly think is some sort of monster... hmmmm. Funny that.

I'm done on this thread now. Thanks to everyone who did bother to give some supportive and useful advice, it is appreciated and what I needed.

I think you need to hae a chat with him, with examples of when he's doing this.

When he reacts with, ' you never say sorry...'

Pull him up on it immediately, so 'there it is. This is what I mean.'

You don't have to defend yourself about when you have apologised. You said earlier, " I am grumpy in the morning, but have out steps in place not to be (by getting up earlier). So is that ok then? Do I have no right to be pissed off at being shouted at?"

This would be great to directly say to him. Are you not allowed to feel upset at being mistreated ever?

How did he react when you cried? I really think you need to tell him he's damaging your relationship seriously. He is the only one who can change but he needs an inspiration to do so. Your relationship being at risk might be that impetus.

OP: My husband is horrible to me and makes me cry.
MN: Oh dear, that's nasty. How can we help?
OP: I want to change him.
MN: That's the moon on a stick. You can't change other people.
OP: What? I thought you said you'd help me!
MN: We can help you understand that he's a mean old bully.
OP: No, he's not. He's fabulous! I just want to change him.
MN:

Op, my husband had a terrible childhood and was sweet and sensitive for years. Then we had a kid and he started to get more and more unpleasant. He would never say sorry, couldn't be wrong about the most mundane thing, sulked, blamed things on me etc. He was depressed, doubting his ability to be a good parent. Also having your own child can trigger memories and feelings from when you were young, which you are not equiped to deal with. Unfortunately it got worse and worse, we are now divorced.

I'm not projecting. Sometimes these things do fit a pattern. Only you know what it is really like in your relatioship. Do some reading, you might recognise things in Lundy Bancroft's books, you might not. It is hard to accept the idea that you might have invested in an unhealthy relationship, picked a bad one or whatever.

OP: I need some support and advice
MN: OK yes let's start off being helpful and supportive
OP: Great, thanks, I'll take what you say on board
MN: Really, oh well in that case let's just stick the boot in
OP: Oi, stop sticking the boot in
MN: Oooh, get you, you can dish it out but you can't take it, oooh what a silly cow

Honestly, garlic,do you really think being so childish is at all helpful? Do you think bullying someone who is already being bullied is a Good Thing?

I never said DH was fabulous. I never said he was he devil incarnate either. I would like to think my marriage is salvageable but yes, he has to change and he has to want to change. I can't do that for him. I am going to suggest counselling, as some of the LOVELY posters on here have suggested. So sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not sweeping this under the carpet or denying it's happening. I am doing something constructive about it.

But just as I won't take shit from my DH, I won't take it from you or everyone else frothing at the mouth, blabbing on about abuse and DV and harming my kids in the womb, and who then get all antsy when the poster doesn't lie down and worship at their fucked up, let's dish out shit and wrap it up in a shiny wrapper we call "advice", altar.

Thank you and good night.

SomePeople that last post wasn't directed at you - I'll look at those books

I think it might be more constructive to direct your anger where it belongs, instead of crying when he does ^^ that to you. Good luck.

Discuss it when absolutely nothing has happened and you are both happy and relaxed. Say it makes you feel sad when you point something out and get your head bitten off and it seems everything is your fault. Plenty of people are like this and I'm sure would be amenable to changing if it's pointed out in a non-confrontational way.

Garlic, are you my husband? You behave an awful lot like him: say something unpleasant and unnecessary. When I call you on it, deflect away instead of saying um yeah, sorry.

For the record, my anger was directed at my DH this morning. I told him off. Then I shouted at him. Then I texted him to tell him his behaviour was completely unacceptable. I only cried after he had left for work - although I do wonder when crying became a sign of weakness. You obviously think it is. How weird.

Bigpaws, thank you. I am going to raise it again at the weekend, and research conselling options in the meantime.

Birds I do have to agree with Cog. The fact he makes you fill with dread about how he is going to behave means that he is bullying (or at the very least unintentionally manipulating your emotions). When I spoke out my ex would say "Oh, so it's my fault again?" - his version of "you're getting hysterical!".
I tried to explain how it made me feel to him - he didn't change - that's why I'm now in the process of splitting up with him.
He is 'depressed and insular' - it was another thing that made me feel isolated and lonely.

Most importantly though, sorry only means something if he learns from it anyway. If he suddenly starts saying sorry, but continues to act like an arse, how will you feel?
My ex did say sorry (eventually), but it didn't change his behaviour. If you deliberately smash a plate saying sorry won't mend it - I don't think our emotions are that different. It just might take a bit longer for the cracks to be visible...

Birds, I have a dh just like yours. When he is challenged on anything he says or does he starts to shout and throw it all back in my face calling me names etc. He never says sorry and at one point the silence went on for 48 days before I gave in. I asked him could we talk, and he decided he wasn't going to jump to my tune.

We went to counseling. I poured my heart out. But nothing changed. Peace did reign for quite some time but the next argument was exactly like all the others.

He will not change, so I have. And I'm done.

I hope your dh will change, will want to change. But I would advise you to have a Plan B in place, just in case.

It's very difficult to know how to offer you support. I feel that you are ascribing meaning and intention to comments that weren't there. For example nobody said you abused your baby in the womb. They were pointing out that it is believed that babies are aware of the things that you feel the children can't hear from the next room.

Do you honestly think this person would even go to counselling anyway?.

You've had a decade of such from him and I am not at all surprised that his behaviours changed when the children came along. His own childhood has played a damaging role here in forming his character now; no amount of counselling will change that. He gets what he wants out of this and he thinks he is not doing anything wrong in the first place, he enjoys the power and control and does it also because he can.

What if he (likely) refuses to go and derides the whole idea of counselling?. Would you go to counselling on your own, this would be far more beneficial to you anyway because you could then talk freely.

I haven't read the whole thread, but mostly the OP's posts.

You are still trying to control it and you still think you can change your OH. You state he's not a bully but then proceed to list all the things that make him a bully.

Of course you don't argue that much. Because you do your best not to, because he hates arguments. He doesn't hate them. If you look carefully I think you'll find he creates arguments where there was a disagreement or criticism.
There is a lot of gaslighting, not just a little.

I understand you are not ready to leave yet. However, unless you are prepared to leave he will have no dried to change. Because he's a bully.

And your children are witnessing arguments if they happen in the morning.

I often say here that it's not the good times that define a relationship. It's the bad times. Can you live with the bad times? Even if they are only once a fortnight?

Also, he reminds me of exH. He ended up being physically violent.

"I do wonder when crying became a sign of weakness."

It's not a sign of weakness. In your case however, it sounds like it's a sign of frustration and unhappiness. You express yourself, you stand up to him. You're doing everything right... you're no shrinking violet. But the frustration comes from the fact that you can't change his response in these situationsand the unhappiness, I would suggest, is that you know you're going to have to capitulate or face the sulking silent stuff.

I'm glad this doesn't happen very often but you are rather stuck with it if you don't change your strategy. Like the man said... one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. Counselling may help you more than it helps him.