DCs being labelled 'wonderful', vs. 'trouble'

[PassTheSherry]

It's been ongoing since they were babies, she doesn't mean any harm, but dd1 and dd2 are 6 and 4yrs now - I'm concerned that it might affect their relationship over time? They get on really well with each other at the moment, and I would like them to stay friends.

Dcs stay over at their grandparents' (my ILs) without us, for a weekend, once in 4-5 weeks - this has been an arrangement that we've been extremely grateful for, as we have no family nearby. They have lots of fun, get to see other members of the family, and ILs enjoy having them (we leave it up to them how often they wish to see them - there is no obligation although it's nice for us to have a break).

However, every time we go to fetch them and spend a bit of time there, at some point MIL will tell me she thinks dd1 "is a wonderful, wonderful child" - which is lovely of course, but this is offset by a tale of how dd2 is disruptive, inconsiderate, trouble and how she "could have throttled her!" It's become so predicable I could count the minutes before I hear those exact words, as they invariably get uttered every single time.

An example of why this happens, is MIL enjoys Art, so she will get her paints out and sits them down at the table, to do drawing and painting etc. DD1 loves this, excels in this at school - she could happily sit and draw for and hr or so. DD2 likes to draw, but not to the extent that DD1 would - and for her, it's just one activiity - not something she loves especially or shows particular interest in. So dd2 (from what MIL tells me) - will lose concentration and get off her seat after a short while, and want to do something else. MIL says she then disrupts dd1, as she wants her to play too. MIL gets exasperated and thinks dd2 is being inconsiderate etc. (perhaps, but she is still only a 4yo and can't be expected to sit as long as a 6yo would, doing something she loves anyway). This happens every time.

I've tried telling MIL that they just have different personalities and interests, and that's OK, but she doesn't listen. Even the artwork they come up with is judged in some way - dd1's being lauded as "wonderful", compared with how dd2 used to mix all the paints together until it was a grey/black sludge, and paint everything in that colour (this was when she was 2/3yrs). Cue "I could've throttled her!" again...

It's not just the art, generally dd1 is a bit of a favoured grandchild, pfb of their pfb. I was an only, so don't really know much about sibling dynamics, but have read Siblings Without Rivalry! I'm a bit concerned as DP and his brother aren't particularly close as adults, and I wonder if it's partly been damaged by childhood family dynamics like that. MIL also refers to him as having been a "wonderful child", and his brother as "trouble". They are friendly and civil, but not close.

(Sorry for length)

Glimmerberry Thanks for your post, it really hits home when you lay out the thought processes like that. I definitely don't want that to happen for dd2 and had thought of the situation as something that needed monitoring for the future, but hadn't thought it had gone as far as needing addressing right now. I understand why it's important to stop it asap now.

I will speak to MIL about it, the next time I see her (in a couple of weeks) and I like your suggestion about the way of doing it. (Think she will be upset enough by that anyway.) My trouble is I will spend the next couple of weeks rehearsing it in my head, and still worried that I will go too far - as this has gone on so long, that if she even tries to deny it I can see myself getting angry.

You said she married FIL because he had a nice father but what usually happens is that people inadvertently repeat the relationships they know and marry someone who on the surface is different but underneath are like their own parent.
So FIL's treatment of his older DGD sounds a bit like MIL's father.

Perhaps if you comment to DD2 as some point to let her understand that you think the DMIL's behavior isn't nice or is strange DD2 will feel able to speak up if she feels picked on. If at the moment everyone is implying that DGPs are lovely people she will think it is her that is wrong. There's no harm imo in letting DCs see that adults have failings, perhaps criticize or explain DFIL's behavior towards older DGD so they can see why DGD behaves in such an apparently rude way. But at a level they might understand and without blatant criticism.

I feel things should be aired with DCs as they were never during my childhood and you can misunderstand the adult behavior and wrongly blame yourself. Excuse the amateur psychology, am quite happy if someone more knowledgeable comes along and says I am talking bollocks!!

Even though your own childhood was not great you realise that what is happening now with your two girls is wrong so your radar is not completely off kilter here. His radar though is. Unfortunately for you, your man cannot or equally does not want to see that what his mother is doing is wrong. Denial is a powerful force and I see he's already dismissed much of the thinking on this thread; a decision that could well come back to haunt him. Its too painful for him to realise that his, to him a "good", mother is actually anything but and has caused a lot of damage.

Its certainly not the childrens fault that their granny chooses to behave like this.

I would also state your man's family is inherently dysfunctional and has been that way for many years. This type of stuff does go down the generations.

I have stated before that MIL now is just repeating the past and re-enacting the same patterns seen in childhood. One generation i.e your man and his brother have been profoundly affected by their parents actions and now there is a second generation being treated the same.

My guess too is that whatever you say to her re your DDs is not going to go down at all well regardless of how nicely you put it. I would still talk to her about it though even though you may not actually get very far, I think she will be completely unreasonable and accuse you of all sorts. Your own behaviour must remain above reproach. Also you cannot count on much if any support from your man, I think he is far more afraid of her than he is of you. She could possibly then have a previously unknown of health problem or illness.

I would consider actually seeing her sooner than in two weeks time or at least when you think you feel strong enough to talk to her. Any weakness on your part will be exploited by her so be very careful when you do speak to her.

Something that has occurred to me - do you think I should actually speak to the girls about it? Or just keep them out of it? Because if the visits change in any way - I wouldn't want them to not know why, and think it was somehow their fault.

If I'm serious about tackling it I should probably plan for the contingency of MIL not taking it well. Dreading.

I've noticed that since coming back from dgps they've been really tale-telling on each other - they do a bit of that anyway, but it seems more than usual. Yesterday they were bickering in the car and DP caught dd1 givng dd2 a sneaky kick (not hard, but still). We told dd1 off and made her apologise to dd2. Dd2 seemed to shrug the incident off as soon as she got the apology, but dd1 was in floods of tears for about 10mins. It could be coincidence (busy week) but they do seem more insecure and competitive this week.

X- posts lol

Any child being spoken about negatively at 4yo is going to suffer. Whether this is by parents, GP's, teachers, extended family or friends of the parents etc. It's also a time where a child will start to find their own identity and may begin to play up to the label they have been given.

I feel for your DD2. That's not a nice way to treat a 4yo and whilst MIL should celebrate your DD1's obvious talent for Art she should be celebrating your DD2's strengths aswell.

I agree totally with glimmer. Your DD's are who they are. They are separate people who should not be compared.

pass your post about your DD1 being uber upset reminds me of something someone posted here on MN not so long ago. That children who are often treated as the 'good ones' or are not use to being told off can react badly when caught out. It's because they don't know how to react to a telling off. So perhaps it is a reaction to the weekend with MIL.

"I've noticed that since coming back from dgps they've been really tale-telling on each other - they do a bit of that anyway, but it seems more than usual. Yesterday they were bickering in the car and DP caught dd1 givng dd2 a sneaky kick (not hard, but still). We told dd1 off and made her apologise to dd2. Dd2 seemed to shrug the incident off as soon as she got the apology, but dd1 was in floods of tears for about 10mins. It could be coincidence (busy week) but they do seem more insecure and competitive this week".

What youarewinning has written.

I doubt very much it is coincidence; its a result of them being subjected to their granny and her enabler of a H again. They are separate individuals and any comparison is highly damaging; they both have strengths and weaknesses.

The role that your MIL has assigned to your DD1 is a role also not without price. Being on that pedestal is very hard for her, small wonder therefore she reacted as she did because she got knocked off it. She cannot handle it at all and is being damaged here as well.

I don't think your MIL will take any of this on board at all.
It's worth saying something, but carefully or she'll turn it on you, but I can imagine a scenario like this happening:-
Mil - ooh dd1, you are wonderful. Of course dd2, you are wonderful too .
Which could actually be more damaging to both dd.

I think that for the time being the sleepovers need to stop and you need to be there with your dd's so you can stand up for them and be quite vocal on their behalf.
If your dh isn't on board with this, then there's even more reason to be there with them - someone needs to put their welfare first.

Your mil sounds very manipulative.

DMIL seems to be in denial of any flaws in her father's behavior in her childhood so it will be unlikely she will truly accept that she is wrong in her treatment of DCs, not that she is deliberately being difficult, more that she won't see what she is doing wrong due to her past.

PasstheSherry - that's exactly how DB and I would act after prolonged time with my GM. In our case it was the favoured child trying to extend that to times when GM wasn't there (I think). It became a habit after a while, and our adult relationship still has a fair amount of childish oneupmanship going on.

How horrible of her. I don't think I would allow that arrangement to continue and would have fairly strong words.

It may upset your MIL, but she's an adult and that's her issue, she'll have to suck it up. The alternative is a situation that could erode your daughter's confidence.

I would say to your DH it definitely needs sorting out. I was labeled as a child compared and to my sister. Not as a troublemaker. But I was the brains and she was the looks out of the two of us. I still think I am ugly. I do not speak to my sister at all, there is jealousy on both sides tbh.

Each of your daughters has the potential to excel and both are wonderful in different ways. People who do not see this are simply toxic.

dozeydoris

I understand what you say about how dd2 might not feel able to say anything as there IS a perception of everything being 'lovely'. In fact MIL has a habit of asking "did you have a lovely time?" over the most innocuous of things (there is no alternative option).

One family Christmas she literally asked me "Are you having a lovely time?" 3 separate times in the space of about 15mins, before breakfast. I was grinding my teeth by the end. Thing is I put it down to a generational gap as well - they are a bit olde worlde. She sort of behaves like a clucky Mother Hen, getting everyone else in order. There is a family in-joke about her 'bossiness' as she organises everyone. FIL can get quite ill-tempered with her, over it - but she says it's because she lives with FIL and BIL, and if she didn't 'organise the men' then nothing would ever get done. Some of it is actually true though - as they (FIL and BIL) do seem to just take themselves off and she potters around keeping house, making tea, 'looking after' everyone, making sure everyone is 'having a lovely time'. In some ways we were never going to see eye to eye as I have very different views on gender roles.

There was another thing which occurred on the recent visit - when we arrived to collect them, dd2 came rushing up and jumped up for a hug. Both dds usually do that - it's a lovely welcome we always get. dd1 went to get a picture to show us and MIL said "She's not pleased to see you at all - she's run in the other direction!" Obviously she was pleased and came running to us with her picture, full of chat etc. This sort of 'joke' from MIL isn't uncommon. I don't find it particularly funny, so just ignore, ignore, ignore. Then she will also say "They do miss you very much, but they had a lovely time." The dcs tell us that they miss us, but they do like going and enjoy themselves there too. So I just think she and I don't share the same sense of humour. It's all a bit confusing.

On this occasion MIL and FIL seemed a bit less understanding with the missing us bit - on one of the evenings dd2 had apparently suddenly had a bout of tears. Dd2 was lying on the floor in the lounge, watching TV with dd1 - when she suddenly got a bit weepy and kept saying "Mummy! Daddy!" Crying. The way MIL was telling us it was almost like a complaint in tone. DP and I were saying "Oh no! Poor dd2.." but MIL said "Well the trouble is when she does that it sets dd1 off." Which made me think my poor dd2 needed a cuddle and have her feelings validated, and maybe didn't get one and was told off instead. Hope not, but I don't know, and hearing this also started making me question...Btw when we showed up dd2 was all bouncey and happy, full of tales about being taken to a Fireworks display, things she'd done etc and seemed fine.

I just wonder if anything that rocks the Happy/Lovely Boat, is seen as mildly treacherous behaviour as MIL is basically in charge, therefore it's taken personally.

I'm not sure FIL is as bad as MIL's father - he teases dgc but from what I see he cares about her. They both do. They used to fret about her when she was a toddler, and was quite a fussy eater, I remember lots of worried discussions over how to encourage her to eat - genuine concern. MIL's father sounds as though he was pretty awful to his ds and downright nasty, to make him wear shoes that were too small.

Spoke to dd1 this morning and asked her if she ever feels pressured to be 'good'. She didn't really know what I meant, so I said
"You know...I wouldn't want you to think that Mummy and Daddy wouldn't love you as much if you weren't good all the time...because...[searching for words]" ...
"You love me the way I am?"
"Yes."
"I like being good, and anyway, being good is good!"

"[laugh] OK..."

I made up a fairytale tonight, as I didn't know how to broach it with dd2 about being labelled and how it might make her feel. Not sure if it was any good, as it was on the spur of the moment, but it went something like this:

Once upon a time, there were two princesses, 'Milly' and 'Tilly', who were twins. Each had different magical powers - they could both fly, but one could make things invisible, and the other could make people happy. Princess Milly liked Maths, and Princess Tilly liked sweeping (? Names, magical powers, and interests were dd1 and dd2's input, respectively!!)

One day they met a Wizard (Dc's requested a presence of an evil wizard) who wanted to play a trick on them, so he could rule instead. The wizard decided the best way to weaken their powers, was to trick them, and the people in the land, into thinking they weren't friends anymore - so they wouldn't be able to use their powers together. That way, they would be easier to fight. So the Wizard started spreading rumours that Milly who liked Maths, was super-talented and wonderful, and Tilly was naughty, because she was different from Milly. At first Milly and Tilly didn't believe these stories, but after a long time, they grew sad. Milly didn't like having to be wonderful all the time, and she really missed the fun she used to have with Tilly. Tilly was sad because she wanted to make people happy, but everyone thought she was naughty, instead. But she wasn't naughty! She liked sweeping(!), and that wasn't a naughty thing to do at all, and it was just as good as liking...erm, Maths. So one day, they realised that it was all a trick and it was OK to be different from each other, and everyone is 'wonderful' some of the time, and 'naughty' some of the time. They were both fine as they were...so they joined hands and were able to make people happy, AND use the invisibility power to escape the Wizards castle where he'd locked them up, and promised to stay friends. The End. (Finished abruptly as it was getting late!)

Four things that happened immediately after:

1. They want to know what happens in chapter two!
2. Dd1 said she knows the moral of the story - the Wizard wanted them to break friends so that the princesses would like him more, instead of each other.
3. Dd1 said "I love you so much Mummy"
4. Dd2 said "I miss "[BIL's dd]" " (Interesting..do you think she was randomly relating the story to dgps household?)

Perhaps the Wizard can up his game in the second chapter and they can win over him again Hurrah!!!!!!!

DD1's comment seems very perceptive an DD2's is food for thought.

Oh my goodness. MIL's ears must have been burning as this morning an envelope arrived for dd2 (just dd2).

In it was some drawings and a note saying she'd found some of her and dd1's artwork while tidying, and please could she show Mummy and Daddy, and dd1...love dgm xxx

That's rather sweet isn't it? She's never written a personal note just to dd2 before. Now I feel like this thread is being really horrible to her, and it's back to this favouritism thing maybe being unjustified...she is well-intentioned and doesn't realise.

I agree that talking to her about it, is very likely not going to go down well at all, but I feel I 'should' try, rather than just limit visits with no conversation beforehand. I think she would be heartbroken and it would cause such a massive rift.

Atilla
Won't get a chance to see them before the two weeks as we have stuff going on at the weekends, and I have school runs during the week. Have thought about ringing up and casually mentioning, but I rarely ring MIL for chats (I did do in the past, but stopped when DP and I had a big bust up once. He rang his parents (!), and they immediately got in their car and drove 2hrs to sort it out with me, on his behalf. I had gone to work and MIL showed up in my workplace wanting to advocate for her ds. Hugely inappropriate. I was completely embarrassed and humiliated and have never confided in her since, and usually just keep things polite and on a superficial level. I very nearly broke up with DP over that as I lost so much respect for him - however he said he never asked them to drive over. Even so it remains a painful incident in our past that I still feel they never should have got involved in (and he should never had got them involved). So really, just by bringing up the subject of what has been bothering me, is a 'big deal' because normally we wouldn't discuss much beyond the weather or make small talk now.

No, this thread is not unfair to MIL, because she has been doing the things you observed. The fact that she has done something nice is encouraging, and will give you a positive thing to start the conversation with ("oh thank you so much for sending DD2's pictures, that was a lovely thought, you know I sometimes worry a bit that you don't get on with her so well because..."). However it has not always been like that. It is most unlikely that she has suddenly changed. She doesn't sound like a bad person but she does have some very entrenched attitudes that will continue to give trouble for your DDs if you do not watch her like a hawk.

"Yesterday they were bickering in the car and DP caught dd1 givng dd2 a sneaky kick (not hard, but still). We told dd1 off and made her apologise to dd2. Dd2 seemed to shrug the incident off as soon as she got the apology, but dd1 was in floods of tears for about 10mins. It could be coincidence (busy week) but they do seem more insecure and competitive this week."
I just wanted to highlight this passage, because in reading the thread I have become concerned about the effect on DD1 as much as DD2. There is a lot of research now showing that praising children for being 'clever' as opposed to 'working hard' can have very negative consequences.

I would think as your DDs get older going to visit Grandma every 4/5 weeks will become less convenient as they have more activities at weekends.

Actually I also find it a bit odd, that they mainly interact with the extended family without you or your DP. That isn't really a "normal" family dynamic.

mummytime

When I started this thread it was mainly because I was concerned about dd2, as being labelled as 'trouble' has more negative connotations than 'wonderful'. However, over the course of it, have been reminded that it all puts extra pressure on dd1 as well.

As others have pointed out (and thank you btw), if dd1 is a sensitive soul, it's even more important to not get into fixed roles where she ends up feeling she has be be 'good' and 'wonderful' all the time to maintain approval. I'd hate that, myself.

I'm sure we make loads of mistakes every day, but we try to provide a balanced view of themselves, and each other (sounding like Jerry Springer now!). We don't want to dictate that they are "this" or "that" and no room for flexibility.

It's difficult not to compare sometimes though, as they ARE different. I catch myself saying "dd1 can be quite sensitive sometimes", or "dd2 can be quite fiesty" BUT it's never said with the implication that sensitivity is 'better' than fiestiness. To me/us - they each have their own personalities that are interesting and lovable, and it's good that they're not clones of each other!

I think "wonderful" vs. "trouble" - is a slightly different issue, to "clever" vs. "working hard". However, I see what you might be saying, because "wonderful" is nice, but a bit wishy-washy, and it doesn't tell dd1 anything about why she is wonderful. So ultimately adds to the stress.

Were you thinking about the study by Carol Dweck? If so, I did read an article on it once, and it was very interesting. I showed it to DP who also took it on board, and we do try to praise for effort or specific action. But... we do forget sometimes...

IamGluezilla

Well I wish she were! In which case: MIL, I'm really sorry if any of this is upsetting but I am concerned.

mummytime
Sorry forgot to add - yes it may be a bit odd that they go and see extended family mainly without us. It's just something that developed over the years, probably initially from when I was heavily pregnant and expecting dd2.

We had no other back-up and dd1 was still under 2yrs, and didn't feel comfortable dropping her off at friends etc. I was worried about what to do with dd1 if I suddenly went into labour with her around in the house (prev emergency c-section). So ILs had her to stay for the first time without us. All went well and dd1 had great time etc. So it probably set a precedent from there. We then used to stay overnight with both dcs until dd2 got a bit older too - then they said if we liked we could just take some time off (as not had any time on our own for years by then - not even a couple of hrs on the odd evening). All seemed happy, dds fine. I don't drive, so if we waited for DP to be available, they would only be able to go up Saturday and come home Sunday. At the moment ILs drive up Friday afternoon and pick them up, and take them back with them. They want to, as they get longer with dgcs, and drive quite a bit in their work anyway. Also BIL's dd stays over there every other weekend so they get to see more of their cousin as well, if she's on a visit. If BIL's dd is there, there is also less bedspace.

So we've just fallen into this pattern were DP and I stay home, then go up on Sunday to have a family lunch with everyone and bring children home. Worked OK up till now, and as I don't particularly find it relaxing being there, but the dd's have loved going - they've just gone by themselves.

It's probably reached the point where we need to go with them again though.

I'm really bad at the clever thing BTW! And it was from work based on Carol Dwerk's initial work.