DCs being labelled 'wonderful', vs. 'trouble'

[PassTheSherry]

It's been ongoing since they were babies, she doesn't mean any harm, but dd1 and dd2 are 6 and 4yrs now - I'm concerned that it might affect their relationship over time? They get on really well with each other at the moment, and I would like them to stay friends.

Dcs stay over at their grandparents' (my ILs) without us, for a weekend, once in 4-5 weeks - this has been an arrangement that we've been extremely grateful for, as we have no family nearby. They have lots of fun, get to see other members of the family, and ILs enjoy having them (we leave it up to them how often they wish to see them - there is no obligation although it's nice for us to have a break).

However, every time we go to fetch them and spend a bit of time there, at some point MIL will tell me she thinks dd1 "is a wonderful, wonderful child" - which is lovely of course, but this is offset by a tale of how dd2 is disruptive, inconsiderate, trouble and how she "could have throttled her!" It's become so predicable I could count the minutes before I hear those exact words, as they invariably get uttered every single time.

An example of why this happens, is MIL enjoys Art, so she will get her paints out and sits them down at the table, to do drawing and painting etc. DD1 loves this, excels in this at school - she could happily sit and draw for and hr or so. DD2 likes to draw, but not to the extent that DD1 would - and for her, it's just one activiity - not something she loves especially or shows particular interest in. So dd2 (from what MIL tells me) - will lose concentration and get off her seat after a short while, and want to do something else. MIL says she then disrupts dd1, as she wants her to play too. MIL gets exasperated and thinks dd2 is being inconsiderate etc. (perhaps, but she is still only a 4yo and can't be expected to sit as long as a 6yo would, doing something she loves anyway). This happens every time.

I've tried telling MIL that they just have different personalities and interests, and that's OK, but she doesn't listen. Even the artwork they come up with is judged in some way - dd1's being lauded as "wonderful", compared with how dd2 used to mix all the paints together until it was a grey/black sludge, and paint everything in that colour (this was when she was 2/3yrs). Cue "I could've throttled her!" again...

It's not just the art, generally dd1 is a bit of a favoured grandchild, pfb of their pfb. I was an only, so don't really know much about sibling dynamics, but have read Siblings Without Rivalry! I'm a bit concerned as DP and his brother aren't particularly close as adults, and I wonder if it's partly been damaged by childhood family dynamics like that. MIL also refers to him as having been a "wonderful child", and his brother as "trouble". They are friendly and civil, but not close.

(Sorry for length)

PassTheSherry wrote the following previously in another one of her postings:-

"Re: alternating visits. One time, we had a weekend arranged for dcs to visit them, but something came up for dd1 which clashed (birthday party of best friend or something). Dd1 decided to stay home that weekend and go to the party. Dd2 was still available to go but the invitation was sort of immediately withdrawn. It wasn't done nastily, but almost as thought it just never even occurred to them, that dd2 could still visit without dd1. They just immediatly suggested arranging another date that was "more convenient". At the time I was a bit hurt on dd2's behalf but DP again thought it was just a practical thing, not done in malice".

Why too should the daughters be separated and have to go on their own to their grandmother's because of granny's bad behaviour?. It is all too clear from the above that granny would rather just have DD1 anyway over for a visit. Bad behaviour on granny's part should not be rewarded at all.

BTW PasstheSherry, being the golden child as your eldest is being moulded into by her grandmother is also a role not without price either. She is being put on a pedestal by her grandmother and that is very difficult to live up to. It will cause her problems long term. Look at your man now, he was favoured and you state his self esteem is not great nor is his own relationship with his sibling.

How about suggesting to MIL that they go separately? Then if (when?) she objects, you could explain that you are worried she seems to be developing a stronger bond with DD1 than DD2 and you think this might help her relationship with DD2. Then see if it has any affect. Just plant the seed rather than go in all guns blazing.

I do think that you need to say something more strongly when she uses the phrase 'I could've throttled her' - that is an awful thing to say about a child, you need to make it clear that is not acceptable.

Id probably sit down with MIL and explain that you don't do favouritism and you expect her not to as it could destroy the relationship between the siblings in the future. I'd mention that you don't feel MIL has bonded that well with DS2 and that you are going to send DS2 on her own for a few weeks so that they have a chance to bond. Then suggest activities DS2 would enjoy.

I would arrange DS2 to visit in her own for a few weeks. I wouldn't send DS1 again till they had made more of an effort.

As someone who was on the 'wrong' side of favouritism I wouldn't recommend sending DD2 by herself. I frequently saw my grandparents alone and while she wasn't malicious about it (I think her favouritism was too deeply ingrained, she didn't even think about it), she still made it clear how much 'better' my DB was. I could mostly handle it as it went on more as I got older. At 4?? I think that sort of thing can just be internalised and could do serious damage to her self esteem.

Your poor DD2, how can anyone call a 4 year old trouble? That is shocking, 4 year olds are not trouble.

I think your MIL is just not providing a stimulating interesting environment for her, she is causing the behaviour that she so doesn't like in your DD.

You really need to sit down and talk to her, in no uncertain terms, and also maybe equip her with lots of suggestions and ideas for what to do and what to provide for a4 year old to keep them entertained, happy, and engaged.

If MIL won't accept she does favouritism it may be best to avoid the word, but to tackle the negativity itself, not "you're much nicer to DD1" but "I would like you to say x and avoid saying y to DD2", sort of approach. MIL may even have the impression that you and DH favour DD2 because you're always bigging her up, so that she's redressing the balance rather than the other way round! Sadly, she sounds like the sort of person who only has enough love, or at least appreciation, to give to one at a time.

I think you need to address the core of the problems for MIL too, ask her exactly what it is that she struggles with with DD2, what it is that DD2 does that is so naughty or trouble, and go through each of these things telling MIL it is normal behaviour at that age, and telling her how to deal with it and change how she interacts with DD and her expectations of DD to minimize the negative labeling.

Perhaps that would be a better way to start the conversation with mil, so in her eyes you are trying to help her rather than just accusing her.

In relaition to the painting in particular, emphasise to your MIL that at 4, theprocess is more important than the end result, and things like mixing all the colours together are important learning stages. Suggest some 'art' activites that might engage a 4 yr oldmore than just sitting formally at a tablewithpaint and rushes and white paper. Suggest finger painting, using other things instead of paintbrushes (cars, rollers, sponges, marbles etc etc)

I also think you should tell your MIl that a child's attention span for one activity is their age plus one or two minutes, so she should never expect your DD2 to stay focussed on one activity for more than 6 minutes, and that doesn't make her trouble, it just makes her developmentally normal.

If this whole issue could be solved simply by talking it would have been solved a long time ago. OP is dealing with someone who is at heart completely unreasonable and will not listen to anyone except her own self. MIL does not think she is doing anything wrong and is repeating patterns she herself did to her own now adult children.

Confronting is also not for now as both of you as well are simply not strong enough to stand up to this woman. Your DP certainly is not and I doubt very much if he would completely back your opinions anyway.

It is also not a solution at all to send these two young ladies over there separately. The MIL prefers the older child and has put barriers up in the past re having solely the younger child over (for instance when DD1 went to a party rather than her grandmother's the decision was made by the ILs to not have the youngest child over; it never occurred to them to have just the youngest child over).

Anyway why should both these children be at all subjected to such awful treatment in first place. Both of them are being damaged here, not just the youngest one. This would not be tolerated at all if anyone else was doing this, its really no different when relatives are doing the favouring.

I'm not sure you could get to the bottom of this without some willing soul-searching by MIL.
My DM was closest to my DD2 (and was a nice lady and didn't show it) but DD2 had interests that my family liked. My MIL's fav GC was DD1 but DD1 was more like that side of the family MIL wasn't so fair and made favouritism clear.

Funnily DM was a DD2 and DMIL a DD1 so that could have influenced it. I think GPs are influenced by the happiness or not of their own childhood.

It' ridiculous to compare a 6yr old and a 4yr old. But have a look at DMIL's siblings and childhood. Did DMIL have a younger sibling who got all the attention for example and this has left it's unconscious mark?

Wingdingdong

I'd ask MIL "so, did you do anything at all DD2 enjoys? Or just things you enjoy?". Then I'd start going on about how much the DDs like FIL, how much they both look forward to seeing him, how he's really on their wavelength, how great he is with young children... Give MIL a bit of food for thought.

Oh that is tempting.

Aussiebean Nice story - I totally agree that if dd2 is told she's 'trouble' often enough she will think of herself as that, which is so not true. I do want to tackle MIL about it but don't want to create so many ructions it causes a rift in the family. Not sure it's possible.

SunnySummer

To go back to what an earlier poster said - do you think that an element of this could be your MIL finding it tricky to cope with 2 small children at once, and so picking the older, easier and more mature one as 'good' because she doesn't have enough energy to come up with alternatives for DD2? There may be an element, but I think it goes deeper than that tbh. PILs are in their 70s but are quite active - they run a part-time business that entails travelling most weekends - both locally and overseas every few months (hence we have to fit around their schedule). MIL has a busy social life (golf twice a week, art club etc), so whilst some of it may be her slowing down etc, it's certainly not the whole story.

Dd1 has always been doted on because she is the pfb of a pfb (in MIL's eyes). There were a couple of instances that irked me when dd1 was a newborn. MIL for a while referred to dd1 as "my baby" (until maybe somebody had words, or she realised and stopped). When dd1 was 11mths old MIL handed me a card to give to DP - turns out it was a Father's Day card, written and 'signed' on behalf of DD1, which hadn't been discussed with me, and annoyed me loads as it felt very overstepping. DP made out that I was over-reacting by taking offence. However as dd2 wasn't around it just came over as inappropriate behaviour or over enthusiam rather than potentially damaging.

When dd2 was born, MIL would rush past the pram in order to greet dd1 but this was justified by saying it was more important to not make dd1 feel pushed out, and a baby would not be aware - which made sense to me too.

Another thing is (and I know how bonkers this sounds) - dd2 is left-handed, as am I, as am BIL, as is BIL's daughter (dc's cousin, whom they also meet up with at ILs). When dd2 was 9mths old I casually mentioned she might be left-handed too - for no other reason than just conversation about general development etc. MIL smirked and said "Poor her!" I was right there and BIL was in the room too. I was shocked at the rudeness but she was oblivious. Later on she said their cousin changed schools because "the other school couldn't cope with her left-handedness" - I challenged her and said it's not a disability, and it's never been a problem at all for me etc etc. But she seems to thnk of it as some sort of defect. There has been times since when she has given us 'ergonomically designed' pens for left-handed people - to give to our toddler dd2. I have since told her that it's the attitude of people who think that left-handedness is defective that causes more damage. The 'left-handed adapted gifts' have now stopped. Anyway - it's another thing which separates puts right-handed DP and dd1 above the rest of the family!

Taken together those incidences probably come over really, really badly - but these things are spaced over years apart - so inbetween, I think "actually she's lovely really, it's me being super-sensitive" which DP tells me I am too - and then get stung by something which seems quite judgey and crass again.

I am asking DP to read this thread.

That Father's Day card thing really is overstepping the mark, the more you say the worse it sounds! Poisonous for all of you if it doesn't get sorted soon, good luck.

Totally unrelated note, but as a fellow leftie those left handed pens can be awesome. Don't tell MIL though

I def feel the treatment of DD2 is to her detriment. My DSis was a late baby and treated as a bit of a nuisance by everyone ( but you follow the behavior of the others around you, it was also a difficult time for our family) and, imv, it has affected her health and self-esteem through adult life.

dozeydorris

But have a look at DMIL's siblings and childhood. Did DMIL have a younger sibling who got all the attention for example and this has left it's unconscious mark?

She has recently told me something about her own upbringing which she'd never really talked to me about before. Her own father was very very "competitive" (her words) towards her brother - as in ridiculously and abusively. She said once he made her brother wear shoes that were too small for his feet even, because he couldn't stand that his son had bigger feet than him. However, he would do anything for her - so I think she was the 'favourite'. She and her brother actually somehow managed to remain close in all that, so perhaps she doesn't see the damage that it does to siblings.

However, she does recognise that there was something very wrong in her father's treatment of her brother - the word "abusive" is never used, just "wasn't that awful and strange of him." In fact it is a factor in why she married FIL - as apparently his father was "a lovely man", and it was a contrast that highlighted to her how abusive her own father was.

SunnySummer Aargh! See, those leftie websites that flog those pens etc are doing me NO favours at all!!! There's me going on to MIL about how bad it is to see left-handers as needing these 'aids' and it's just a marketing ploy to exploit a niche - and there's a whole bunch of lefties going "Ahem. Actually we love them and it DOES help!" Argh.

Once a month my siblings DB and ds and my cousins would stay at my nanas house for my Mam and Auntie to go out. There were seven of us, with two favourites. I wasn't a favourite at first, but tried desperately to be. I watched what DB and cousin 2 did, I watched what nana liked, I changed myself to try to go into the favoured section. I read the books that nana liked, and as it was clear she liked children who did sports I joined sports clubs so I could tell her I was doing x,,y and z. By the time I was a teen I was a favourite. She was that fickle. But the pressure was worse to stay a favourite, and my sis and cousins resented me for pleasing nana. It's seriously affected two of the not favourites, their self esteem is awful and neither talk to nana or the rest of us. Dsis hates nana and our brother for it. She also blames Mam for letting her go there despite knowing nana didn't like her much. She wasn't nasty to her, and didn't get abused, but it was clear she was an afterthought for nan. And the pick up appraisals were awful for all of us 'dgc has been lovely, I hear they're doing well at school, oh dgc has been no trouble, but all she does is sit and mutter so how could she be? The girls were fine apart from the shrieking, wouldn't it be nicer if they ALL could play football in the garden like favoured dgc?
She didn't say direct insults, but the implications were horrible
Why can't you change the visits so that you visit too? Then you can nip it in the bud as and when without losing the chickens time with dgp

MIL overstepped boundaries (which were never enforced properly by yourselves) years back by both her behaviour with the pram and the father's day card which should have been really stomped on by you and your DP but he being in FOG state with regards to his parents did not.

I do not blame you entirely though (to my mind the main fault here lies with your weak man; he is certainly part of the overall problem here) because you come from a family who are not like this i.e emotionally healthy and balanced. It is very difficult indeed to deal with such people effectively; the only way forward to my mind for you is to keep your distance both physically and emotionally.

Her own father was himself very damaged hence his own behaviour towards the girl who became your MIL and her brother. Dysfunctional stuff like this can and does go down the generations.

It has to stop now and you as parents need to be the ones to call a halt to it otherwise you will also play a role in continuing this nonsense shown now towards your own children.

"She has recently told me something about her own upbringing which she'd never really talked to me about before. Her own father was very very "competitive" (her words) towards her brother - as in ridiculously and abusively. She said once he made her brother wear shoes that were too small for his feet even, because he couldn't stand that his son had bigger feet than him."

That's horrific. No wonder she has problems working out what's ok and what's not normal. That's a clear example of 'not normal' but she must have witnessed a lot of borderline behaviour as a child.

MIL overstepped boundaries (which were never enforced properly by yourselves) years back by both her behaviour with the pram and the father's day card which should have been really stomped on by you and your DP but he being in FOG state with regards to his parents did not.

I do not blame you entirely though (to my mind the main fault here lies with your weak man; he is certainly part of the overall problem here) because you come from a family who are not like this i.e emotionally healthy and balanced. It is very difficult indeed to deal with such people effectively; the only way forward to my mind for you is to keep your distance both physically and emotionally.

Atilla - At the time I didn't think much about the pram as had read articles about making a fuss of the older sibling first when a new baby arrives. Just in hindsight that it fits with what she would have wanted to do anyway!

The card - really wish I had opened it in front of her as she would have seen my reaction instantly - but she handed it to me in amongst other things as they were leaving, in a "btw nearly forgot!" way. We waved them off and it was only when I got inside that we opened it and I went "wtf is this?". I was agape at the cheek and ranted at DP - and by the time ILs had arrived back to their home, he had talked me down, explaining it as just an eccentric thing. Then I felt to bring it up as an issue would seem a bit petty (but maybe I should have). Next time she visited I made sure that I left a bigger, more personal, 'baby handprint and photo', homemade card I had done with dd1, out. Somewhere very prominent and obvious and I knew she'd peep inside. She has not done anything like that since.

Just had talk with DP - he is adamant most of this thread is 'bollocks' and I've misinterpreted a lot. For instance he says he and his brother were close as children and it's simply the passage of time, and distance (2hrs away by car?) that has caused the fading of that relationship. He doesn't seem to get it, that I have never said they were never close - and in fact if they were close friends once, it reinforces the theory that something happened that eroded that friendship.

However. He has said that he will talk to MIL "about treating them in a more egalitarian manner" - and he will back me up if I end up saying something, but has pleaded with me not to be unpleasant to her.

I will arrange to go up with them next time - MIL has always said I'm welcome to go so will just take her up on the offer.

Even if she appears to be fairer she might still avoid eye contact, sound insincere in tone of voice etc when dealing with DD2.

Does FIL see what is going on?

You could chat in a discrete way to DBIL and MIL's DB about their upbringing - as the sibling relationships are friendly no one will object to that - just to reassure yourself.

dozeydoris No she usually seems quite sincere to dd2 and will say nice things too - it's not just all exasperation and nothing good, or I wouldn't be so conflicted about it. It's just that the exasperated tone and the "could've throttled her" comments are to US, and with predictable regularity.

It's not just one long slagging-off session either, she does say nicer stuff inbetween the negative comments, like "dd2 gave the toy to dd1 which I thought was very kind." (except this is tainted by the tone of surprise - even though the only person in the room who is surprised by this, seems to be herself.) Then, after a while she will also tell us about why she "could've throttled her" over something else, again. She seems to love dd2 (I know many here would disagree), but is too quick to interpret her behaviour as 'disruptive' or 'naughty' - in a way that she never did with dd1, and seems rather blinkered unfortunately.

Not sure if I could chat to DBIL privately as it's quite hard to get him alone in the house - MIL's DB has sadly passed away now. FIL - he gets pretty irritated with MIL and he himself seems more 'fair' with dd1 and dd2 - and seems to enjoy dd2's company, but I'm not sure he sees what's going on as potentially detrimental. He also thinks of dd2 as "the naughty one" but he doesn't necessarily consider this as negatively as MIL. So he's part of the labelling too, but doesn't ascribe judgements in the way MIL would.

There is stuff between him (FIL) and BIL's daughter (their 12yo eldest dgc) which I don't find healthy at all either, so not sure how much I could talk to him about setting up unhealthy dynamics etc. According to MIL 'he used to tease [BIL's dd] mercilessly' - jokey banter and teasing, pretending he was about to sit in her favourite chair - that sort of thing, but more than a young child would cope with probably. MIL would then be the 'rescuer' and intervene and be the Nice one.

This has totally carried on over the years and now BIL's dd gives it right back - mealtimes are a bit odd, usual pleasantries are interspersed with "No I'm not sitting next to Grandad!" or things like (this isn't exact but the gist is there) BIL might say: "So, you DO have something in common with Grandad - you both like cheesecake!" BIL's dd: "NO!!" [much laughter around the table] "I'm not having cheesecake!! I'm having what Grandma is having!" It's all colluded with by the family, when actually I think sometimes BIL's dd is bordering on being really quite rude to FIL, yet it's all laughed off. MIL has said to me that it's terribly hurtful sometimes, poor Grandad, but it's his own fault, I told him little girls don't like being teased like that but he didn't listen..." I find it all a bit odd, but everyone probably puts it down to me not 'getting' the family banter and humour. So there are a LOT of fixed roles going on - to say the least.

because you come from a family who are not like this i.e emotionally healthy and balanced. It is very difficult indeed to deal with such people effectively; the only way forward to my mind for you is to keep your distance both physically and emotionally.

The thing is, I didn't come from a healthy and balanced family so it's difficult for me to see what is 'normal'.

My background is only child, older parents who were immigrants, who socialised with their own culture. My upbringing was characterised by not fitting in. Anywhere. I didn't have the same type of home life as my school friends, we never did things as a family like my friends' families did, I physically stood out at school, and I wasn't enough like my parents at home. Growing up was hard. My parents worked intensely throughout my childhood and teens, and I was left to my own devices a lot. I have no real idea what an ordinary, family life is like - DP's family seem as 'normal' and ordinary as any. Over the years I've come to realise that even so - there are dynamics under the surface that are not quite as happy as I thought. However, is this more strange than other so-called 'normal' families? I don't know...

My parents treated me and my sister like this. I am DD2 and was considered trouble. I'm probably a bit more cerebral than my sister and got bored easily I suppose. In adult life I went on to uni, a busy professional career and continue to like being busy and stimulated. My sis is a very happy SAHM.

I have virtually NO relationship with my parents. The idea that I was "trouble" caused so much harm. To be brief:

1. As a young adolescent, having being continually told was I trouble, I proved them all right by drinking early, playing truant etc.

1. As an older adolescent I avoided people who deep down I thought were too good for me (because I was trouble, of course) and only had friends who treated me badly, and some terrible boyfriends.

1. As a young adult I married an absolute loser (a classic MN cocklodger) despite knowing what a twat was, because being trouble, I felt I'd never do better.

It took me until I was about 30 to realise, how can I be trouble/bad? All I've ever done is study, try to do my best, try to be good to my family, pay my bills and otherwise live a pretty conservative life. So I tried to put it behind me, allowed myself to fall in love with a very good man and start to have the life I'd pushed away before.

At (nearly) 40 there are still repercussions from this early labelling. I don't think my sister has really let go of the idea that I'm trouble, so although we're reasonably close, I keep any misfortune to myself (missing out on sibling support) as there's always the sense that she believes I deserve any bad luck, or have brought it on myself. I also have a very, very limited relationship with my parents because I can't identify with who they label me as and it's just weird and uncomfortable being in their presence, and too easy for me to slip into old habits believing their labelling to be true IYSWIM.

I think that you just need to be honest with MIL. Explain what she is doing, acknowledge that you are sure it is without malice or malintent, but that it is strongly at odds with how you parent and what you find acceptable from anyone spending a lot of time with your children (which you hope she will continue to do). Thank her, and reinforce her behaviour, every time you notice any effort NOT to behave in this way.