Do you think an affair can be harmless if it's never discovered?

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And if its mainly physical, neither party had any intention of leaving their partner and it's conducted at times they would be away from their families anyway?

There are affairs that stay secret, no one knows except the Two persons concerned, some people can keep secrets.

We can't speak about what happens in these cases because they are always hidden.

On this thread people are talking about examples of affairs which were discovered and then extrapolating to all affairs.

On this thread people are talking about examples of affairs which were discovered and then extrapolating to all affairs.

No we're not.

I've seen a few affairs at close quarters that weren't discovered, either at all or not yet. Harm was certainly done, but it's very reductionist to believe that we're just talking about harm to couple relationships. There's often harm caused to businesses, client relationships, manager-employee relationships, collegiate relationships, friendships, those within the extended family and with children.

Apart from not telling her when he is with me I don't see why he would be treating her any differently to how he did before he ever knew me

That's your assumption (and without meaning to sound unkind, you would say that, wouldn't you?), but by definition you're never going to know if it is actually the case.

I think (I'm married, never cheated or been an OW) that it is unlikely to be the case. At the least, he is looking to you for excitement and sex, and it isn't unreasonable to assume, looking less to his wife for those things as a result.

Be honest and admit you just don't know how your liaison will affect his marriage. If these things are to be done at all, they are best done with no pretence to yourself, just clear-sighted acceptance of the range of possible consequences.

at inferring a woman is 'dim' when she's just posted about her pain.

Now why would you do that?

Francesca, if you knew about the affairs in question then they were, by definition, not secret (unless you were one of the 2 persons involved)

Er...it is entirely possible to discover an affair without the two people saying anything at all LazySuzanne. Do you think people in affairs are never careless and get found out, not by what they say but by what they do?

Besides the point Fran, there will be affairs which are never uncovered, betrayed neither by words or deeds

I appreciate that this makes people feel very uneasy, no one likes to think that cheats prosper

Lazysuzanne - I and several other posters have explained why an undiscovered affair can have an impact on a marriage.

And I have explained that you cannot account for undiscovered affairs, you are only talking about what you imagine will happen.

Or have you conducted research into undisclosed affairs?

I have 'conducted research' into my H's affair. I know that particular one quite well. And you only have to read posts from other people, here and elsewhere, who have had affairs or been cheated on to see that most of them acknowledge that there was an impact.

The plural of anecdote is not research

Oh... I see. So if people tell you their experiences you will refuse to beleive them unless they and a few others have their experiences written up in a 'scientific' report. OK.

But how would you know there are affairs that are never discovered? How can you prove a negative? How can you possibly prove that no-one in those people's lives knows?

This doesn't make me feel uneasy, probably because I haven't really known any cheats who've prospered; there's always been a negative effect to them as well as other people.

It does make me feel more than uneasy when a poster writes about her painful experience and another poster says she is 'dim'. There are kinder ways to broach disagreement and conflicts of opinion.

Orm, perhaps you are willfully misinterpreting me, perhaps you are also dim but it's not to do with disbelieving individual accounts, it's the ubiquitous extrapolating from personal experience.
The extreme credulity of posters who can't see that the Mumsnet window on the world is utterly biased and subjective

I think I would be happier to be dim than rude.

I don't see anything wrong with people setting out their experiences and then drawing inferences from it to apply to the OP's situation. It is anecdotal, but that is generally how we discuss relationships isn't it?

We don't advise or counsel based on research, we talk about the experiences we or our acquaintances have had and variously wonder/assume/infer/extrapolate from that. All the time accepting we may not be typical, or average, or usual.

And I agree we can't, by definition, say much about undiscovered affairs. It's a known unknown (or an unknown unknown-where's Donald Rumsfeld when you need him?)

No, it's because your arguments are irrational and illogical LazySuzanne.

None of us are able to 'prove' that there are affairs that are completely undetected by anyone. Even some partners know about it but turn a blind eye and there are often several other people who know but say nothing.

Because of that, none of us can state with certainty that there are affairs that remain secrets with no effects or impacts. We just can't know that.

" it's the ubiquitous extrapolating from personal experience." No extrapolating here. I simply stated in reply to the OP who asked 'can an affair be harmless if never discovered' that on the contrary IME an affair CAN be harmful even if never discovered. I certainly didn't claim that ALL affairs are harmful if never discovered. One assumes that if she wanted research rather than personal anecdote she could have googled that. All we here can do is give our opinions.

I agree MN isn't the whole world. But you don't have to search very far to find experiences similar to mine.

But hey as I am 'dim' and my analogies are 'weak' I guess you don't really want to know what I think. And as you seem to be quite agressive and insensitive I will exercise my right to ignore you.

If the non-betraying partner has detected signs of neglect and lack of consideration in the marriage before discovery of an affair (maybe were explained away by tiredness, stress, or the thousand and one other excuses, set against the utter unthinkableness of the person you trust above all others being faithless) then the marriage has indeed been damaged. Discovery demonstrates that the affair was the cause. But the damage was happening, and noticed, totally separately from knowledge of betrayal.

The problem with this thread and all those where there are mainly black and white opinions, is that the views are often limited to the posters' experiences - whether they have had an affair, been betrayed, or have observed other people's affairs. It's rare to have impartial and unemotional responses that allow for shades of grey :)

The problem with this is that these opinions and experiences are written as if they are facts and apply to everyone in the same situation.

For example, it's not true that all affairs are discovered. In RL I know of some which have never been ( and no, I don't mean me before anyone jumps in with that accusation.)

Similarly I've known of couples where affairs have been openly conducted and tolerated, because they have a different expectation of marriage.

There are hundreds of examples of well known people- over the centuries- who have openly had affairs and their spouses have accepted this or turned a blind eye.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong- but what I am saying is that no matter what you post here it is YOUR opinion only.

On balance, my opinion is that most affairs cause hurt to one or more people - but at the same time I accept that some couples can accept affairs and they aren't such a big deal to them as they are to other people.

Francesca- LS is right I'm afraid- if you 'discovered' an affair then it was not secret. Unless it was all in your imagination. I think you need to admit that there are affairs going on that no one- absolutely no one- knows about, but may hear about in some way years after it's ended.