'infidelity is caused by problems in the marriage'

[Wellwobbly]

This has come up again in a thread.

I can't cut and paste (copyright), but would like to post three links of differing views, and ask people's input of what they think of them?

First:

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/07/couples-therapy_n_3977035.html?utm_hp_ref=divorce&ir=Divorce

Second:

chumplady.com/2013/10/it-takes-three/

Third:

www.davidclarkeseminars.com/apps/articles/?columnid=508&articleid=3813

What do you think?

I don't agree with this my husband looked me in the face daily and told me he loved me we were very close best friends he still went out and did it to me and I think that's what hurt more is that I thought we were perfect together and so did everyone else.
I thought we were happy so to me it was like a bolt out of the blue and he still turned around and blamed me for it and said it was my fault so I think it's a bollocky excuse that cheaters use because cheating won't fix your marriage it will just ruin it!

Lazy, but we are very incompetent and biased, so I'd really appreciate it if you could do the search and point us to the page results.
Or provide at least 3-4 links to the actual research.

Much obliged.

Lweji you are making very elementary errors in the way cause and effect works, which i have pointed out before.

I'm not. But that's my word against yours.

Please do answer my question about outcome d).
Don't you agree that by your logic you are giving problems in the marriage as cause for domestic violence and rape within the marriage?
And if not, how do you reconcile the two?

Also your points on determinism clearly show you're unfamiliar with probability, which has been used for centuries to deal with multiple causes and/or effects.

Do enlighten me how probability deals with multiple causes and effects?
The term cause implies determinism, whether you like it or not.

And, do tell, where did I personally attack you?
If so, please report to MNHQ.

If I switch on a light I cause the bulb to be illuminated
If I turn the key in my car ignition I cause the engine to turn over.

That isn't the way people work. We aren't machines. We have choices.

if I stabbed H in the heart I might cause him to die. If I am in some way in his view an unsatisfactory wife I do not cause him to be unfaithful. He might think it was an excuse to be unfaithful but that's a quite different matter.

It is honestly a very strange and unedifying experience watching someone who is reading the same posts as everyone else, constantly alleging that those posts said something different and then inferring that the posters who wrote those imaginary words therefore lack knowledge or intelligence.

There is certainly no point in continuing a 'debate' with someone who a) is strange enough to try to gaslight people about the written word b) refers to research to back up opinions but won't cite it and c) thinks it's appropriate to do any of that on a thread when people are talking about pain and loss.

FB, we all suspect why, too.

LazyJaney

I think you are confusing reason and excuse.

The reason someone cheats is because they decide to, that they are unhappy in their marriage excuses it, at least by their own standards.

Shall I ask?

LazyJaney how often have you been the OW?

This is still going on? :/

Lazyjaney yet to explain how problems in a marriage cause cheating I also see.

I think it is quite simple to understand, I don't know why it is being made so complicated.

My understanding of the word cause in this context is that it is being asserted that infidelity happens as a result of problems in a marriage. This is evidently not true given that many marriages have problems without there being infidelity. Also significant infidelity happens without problems. Also because it is irrational to attempt to argue that choice is not the primary cause of infidelity, now that choice may be varying degrees of morally wrong or otherwise depending on the circumstances but it still doesn't mean that choice isn't the cause of cheating.

"My understanding of the word cause in this context is that it is being asserted that infidelity happens as a result of problems in a marriage. This is evidently not true given that many marriages have problems without there being infidelity. Also significant infidelity happens without problems. Also because it is irrational to attempt to argue that choice is not the primary cause of infidelity, now that choice may be varying degrees of morally wrong or otherwise depending on the circumstances but it still doesn't mean that choice isn't the cause of cheating"

This is the same basic error that Charbon, Lweji etc get caught up in. A cause can have multiple effects, an effect can have multiple causes.

For example - smoking does not always cause lung cancer, and lung cancer is not only caused by smoking. But you cannot therefore argue that smoking cannot cause lung cancer.

And arguing that infidelity is only caused by choosing it, while ignoring the causes of it's choice, is like arguing that lung cancer is only caused by rogue cell growth, and ignoring the causes of that growth.

The need on this thread to believe something as absurd as "no affairs are caused by relationship problems, not ever" is so visceral that I can only assume those defending it so vehemently have some fairly deep seated issues they have not yet faced up to.

Anyway, you may now continue with the personal attacks - which again says much about those so invested in this thread.....

Please do report the personal attacks.

You still haven't answered the question about DV...

So, are problems in the marriage a cause of DV as well?

Also because it is irrational to attempt to argue that choice is not the primary cause of infidelity, now that choice may be varying degrees of morally wrong or otherwise depending on the circumstances but it still doesn't mean that choice isn't the cause of cheating"

Eh?

Try as I might and re-reading this several times, I can't make head nor tail of it. The grammar is all over the place-not to mention the logic- and a few commas would possibly help me to fathom it all out.

The issue with lung cancer is that it is not "caused" by smoking itself, but directly by lung cells going rogue.
They go rogue by a number of reasons, but they don't choose to go rogue. In the right conditions (enough damage to the DNA, defective copies of the controlling genes and escaping from the immune system) they always go rogue, sooner or later.
There is usually a fairly deterministic path to the development of lung cancer, which involves certain steps and there is a mechanism to it.

Unless you are stating that humans are conditioned to cheat upon certain conditions, then they have free will and can choose not to cheat, regardless of what happened in their relationship.

is there a thing called the reverse Superman effect? Where certain two people always show up together? And they are not a couple.

Ah- you're talking about yourself , Charbon and WW? Yep thought so.

Choices don't have causes. Choices may have influences.

Still yet to explain how problems in a marriage cause infidelity.

I say that as someone who has both been cheated on and cheated.

Very sorry if my last post doesn't make much sense and a lack of commas confuses you. Mumsnet isn't an english exam and I'm recovering from a very nasty tummy bug and haven't eaten for 2 days now. I'm not sure how it detracts from the point though.

You two can bang on all you want about how you disagree but neither of you has articulated your point; how do problems in a relationship cause infidelity? Do you have a different understanding of the word cause?

And I'm aware that a cause can have multiple effects btw. It really is totally irrelevant to the conversation here, which is about whether problems in a relationship cause infidelity.

I'm struggling to understand how you are unable to understand the difference between effect and choice and cause and influence. They are distinct from each other for a reason.

Some philosophers and those who study metaphysics do not believe there is such a thing as free will. Discuss.

Right, ok then...

So, how do problems in a relationship cause infidelity.

See it is will we are talking about rather than free will. No-one on this side of the fence has been perverse enough to argue that problems in a relationship do not influence a choice to be unfaithful.

We're simply saying it remains a choice no matter what way you analyse it. It remains a choice, and that the circumstances surrounding affairs differ wildly. The only common factor being the choice to be unfaithful.

Not sure why you're so invested in the idea that problems cause infidelity? Not sure because neither of you have articulated how problems cause infidelity...

Offred- I don't know if your post 'you two' includes me?

I don't think I've said anything along those lines. I believe that people do have a choice. I also believe that there are circumstances which influence choice. Choices are made when we take many factors into consideration both consciously and sub consciously.

I fail to see why it's so hard to understand that someone who is unhappy in a marriage for whatever reason and who, at that moment in time, does not want to leave the marriage, may be drawn into another relationship.

What I cannot understand is why this entire thread appears to miss the point that emotions cannot be explained rationally or logically.

People can behave in a way which they know intellectually is wrong, but their emotions carry them forward, even though they may feel regret afterwards. It's called human fallibility.

It's the same principle which applies to almost half the population who are now overweight- they carry on eating cake even though they know it's wrong and will in the end make them ill.
They have a choice to have an apple or a cake- they choose cake.
No one would deny emotional eating. A set of circumstances which predispose someone to comfort eating.

Why is it so hard to accept that marriages may have factors which predispose someone to an affair?

It isn't and I've consistently made those points that you say no-one on the thread is making.

Those points do not mean that problems cause infidelity though.

So what's your point on this thread exactly if you seem to accept problems are an influence on the choice to be unfaithful rather than a cause of infidelity?

Offred- are you wanting specific examples of couples? I could give you at least 3 - close friends- but I'd feel disloyal in case they felt outed. But in each of their marriages there had been severe discord, lack of connection and unhappiness for years and years. They had all tried counselling too- but one partner (wife and husband) chose to have an affair at the height of their unhappiness when someone came into their lives with whom they felt a huge connection.

There- is that what you want?

Offred- I think this whole thread is falling apart through semantics. I am tired of it now because there is too much confusion over what people means by 'cause'.

I don't know what your point is anyway, so I'm off.