'infidelity is caused by problems in the marriage'

[Wellwobbly]

This has come up again in a thread.

I can't cut and paste (copyright), but would like to post three links of differing views, and ask people's input of what they think of them?

First:

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/07/couples-therapy_n_3977035.html?utm_hp_ref=divorce&ir=Divorce

Second:

chumplady.com/2013/10/it-takes-three/

Third:

www.davidclarkeseminars.com/apps/articles/?columnid=508&articleid=3813

What do you think?

[saferniche]

familyscapegoat that's great (and I'm sure true) but our memories can be faulty. This is a common complaint of the perplexed spouse who was not aware of marital misery especially if it developed retrospectively during or after the affair.

I read Dan Gilbert on happiness (and memory) he makes me laugh, which has been good.

[familyscapegoat]

I agree that memories can be faulty. But I had no difficulty being aware of 'marital misery' during the affair; obviously it was this contrast in behaviour and atmosphere that first raised the alarm!

What was interesting was that during his affair, my husband says he never did think it had anything to do with me or our relationship, so he had no need to challenge his memories, or mine afterwards. Besides, we'd got some jointly experienced specific occasions and conversations to draw on from the memory bank, that had only occurred in the 2 months before he'd first met the OW. Because my default was that something must have been wrong, I drove myself mad in the early days thinking I was suffering from learned memory syndrome, until my husband stopped me in my tracks and asked me to stop doing it because he remembered things exactly the same and this was in any case, a completely false trail.

[OrmirianResurgam]

charbon - " In fact, it's often far more comforting for people to believe it because then the situation appears to be within the control of the faithful partner. It's very understandable too for couples in the wake of an infidelity crisis to cling on to a belief that if in the future they have more sex, organise more date nights and generally 'up their game', this can never happen again. "

This 100%. If you get a diagnosis you can get a cure. So comforting and so unhelpful in the long term. It took me a long while to stop blaming myself. H never blamed me.

[saferniche]

familyscapegoat is 'learned memory syndrome' the same as 'false memory'?

[familyscapegoat]

No I don't think so. After all, two or more people can have very conflicting memories after witnessing the same incident - who's to say which one is false? False memory I don't think always carries with it an agenda for believing the falsehood (although it can) and it's true that our beliefs about an incident can influence what we think we're seeing and so we might embellish facts a bit to support our take on the incident, but there doesn't have to be al pay-off for us believing the falsehood, nor a penalty for facing the truth. I suppose I'm thinking of witnesses to crimes when I'm trying to explain this and I hope it makes sense!

The way I look at learned memories is that I think we all have the capacity to lie to ourselves that something happened in a particular way and the more we repeat that lie, the more we come to believe it ourselves. We've learned to believe it because the truth would be too difficult to confront.

It really helped me in those fruitless trawls of memory to have actual tangibles; the romantic weekend away and what was said and done, a birthday card with a long and profound message of love and contentment from my husband, the pleasure he'd expressed when I'd made a huge effort for a particular thing that was important to him. All of these things happened in the 2 months or so before he met the OW. Obviously there were a million and one other things too; the daily actions and gestures of someone who loves.

His therapist did a lot of work with him on that, to establish whether there was anything about convincing himself all was well when it wasn't. I too was keen for that exploration to happen, as was he. But it just wasn't an issue and my husband kept referring to what he'd told himself during the affair and his vivid memories of how he was feeling before it.

[saferniche]

I have to ask - what was he telling himself? But you don't have to answer.

'we all have the capacity to lie to ourselves that something happened in a particular way and the more we repeat that lie, the more we come to believe it ourselves.' Yes, yes - this is exactly how we can create a memory. It should make a few readers stop and think.

[familyscapegoat]

I don't mind sharing this at all. He told himself that because this wasn't anything to do with our relationship or his feelings for me - and he didn't see the OW as an alternative partner - none of it had to affect our lives together. He thought he could compartmentalise this thing, which would be over very quickly anyway. He didn't manage to compartmentalise the stress the whole thing created or the effect it had on his behaviour at home and at work, though. He also remembers very clearly thinking the reason this was happening was because he was feeling a failure at work and the OW was cheering him up, telling him that none of it was his fault plus lots of other flattery and compliments. I was also supporting him through this crisis of course, but I wasn't telling him lies about how he'd handled a few situations and not surprisingly, didn't feel the need to tell him how sexy and gorgeous he was when we were talking about a career issue! He does remember me saying things like that in more intimate moments, but remembers thinking "she's supposed to say that, she's my wife".

Glad you understood that post about learned memories. I think because we both had always understood it we were better placed to challenge ourselves, plus we both had great therapists who encouraged us to do that.

[Wellwobbly]

If it is a problem in the marriage, why was I so blindsided? I knew I was married to a difficult and complicated man, and found him very frustrating, but I absolutely adored him.

To repeat what Charbon says: the hardest hardest thing to take on board what that he did it because he wanted to. He went looking 'and if it wasn't her it would have been somebody else'. That the love of my life didn't care about the consequences of his shitty choices. That he didn't have any care about the hurt he was causing other people. I used to say to him during his emotionally gone phase 'you are frightening the children' - and it meant nothing.

It was devastating to discover quite how selfish and self-absorbed he really, really is. That he genuinely cannot put himself in another person's shoes. That he lacks an empathy chip. That he literally can stop feeling for someone if another person makes him feel better through more admiration. Facing this reality and letting go of hopes and dreams? Has been hard.

No, it would have been MUCH better if it had been the marriage. But do you know what he said? 'I was just doing it to make myself feel better. It was a fantasy. I wasn't looking to replace you'.
'
I spent my life with someone for whom 'I' don't really exist.

[saferniche]

Wellwobbly - it is vile - no getting away from it. He didn't deserve you.

[Lazyjaney]

As mentioned in my first, my posts on this thread are for other contributors and lurkers, just in case anyone was questioning the validity of engaging with such aggressive and personalised obtuseness

Argument is not aggression. You're the one making personal attacks, so far according to you I am goady and obtuse (plus a host of PA sideswipes).

I think you just don't like people questioning the validity of your views and reasoning, especially with your proposition is that no affairs stem from problems in a relationship, not ever, and any other view is a myth.

But to believe this requires believing a host of obviously false resulting conclusions. It requires the most extraordinarily partisan reading of research, the most blinkered observation possible of peoples' relationships and testimony, and some extremely tortuous mangling of logic, cause and effect, and statistics.

So where, exactly, is any myth more likely to be?

So why would anyone hold to this view given it's probably false. What is now clear to me, parsing your fairly circuitous reasoning, is that the main benefit of this view is that it maintains that an affair is always other peoples' fault.

But it's a dangerous myth, as it flies in the face of all observable evidence, so believers have to continually adjust reality to fit the required worldview. IMO anyone who believes it cannot find their truth and move on, but have to stay in a false limbo because of the conflict between belief and reality.

The only healthy view IMO is a rational view, that fits all research, observations, testimonies, and doesn't disobey the rules of logic and mathematics. This is that Some affairs are due to problems in the relationship, Some affairs are due to the proclivity of the cheater (and Some affairs are probably due to a whole host of other obscure causes). Some are due to a cocktail of causes.

And also accept that there is variability in the degree of fault, humans being what they are, nothing is set in stone, every relationship is different.

in my view this approach is a far healthier place to be to move forward.

[Wellwobbly]

Lazyjaney:

You are conflating two issues.

1. once the harm of the infidelity is dealt with (one issue, unilateral secret behaviour)

THEN

1. the marital dynamics can be looked at (separate issue, interpersonal dynamics).

It is no coincidence that so many relationships hurt by adultery fail (70+%), but around 2 years later. In other words, people TRY to get over it. But the characteristics required to heal this (empathy, remorse, taking responsibility) the are characteristics required to make a good marriage in the FIRST PLACE!!!!! You are blaming the victim.

Infidelity is an act of huge hostility and aggression, however unconscious it . It is a huge 'fuck you!'. Just as stabbing someone is a huge 'fuck you'!

How easy is it to deal with someone who has the tendencies to be passive aggressive, avoidant, self-absorbed and all the other charming qualities required to step outside the relationship, IN the relationship?

The person who invests LEAST in the marriage, is the person most likely to have an affair - Shirley Glass. You really are still blaming the victim.

I have told you all the unpleasant manipulative things I did in our marriage previous to his affair. It is part of my co dependent work to make a fearless moral inventory and to make amends. BUT those behaviours were things I resorted to to try and CONTROL a very deeply self-absorbed person I didn't CREATE and despite my best efforts I couldn't CURE! (All I succeeded doing was obsess about him and make my life unmanageable).

My point being, he was ALREADY the type of person who would make decisions without caring about their impact on other people! My idiocy was to not admit or recognise how damaging and eroding they were, and to delude myself that my love could 'change' him, and all the screaming, nagging, manipulating, wheedling, sarcasm, etc etc that co dependent people lose their sanity in.

[DottyboutDots]

Wellwobbly, i am sorry you are so hurt and sincerely hope you recover soon. Your ex sounds like an arse. Your best revenge would be to move on without him and definitely not obsessing about him. However, the therapy speak you use just sounds trendy for now (believe me, worse things happen all over the world and equating infidelity with being stabbed is, well, ridiculous). Lazy janey, you are talking a lot of sense.

[onefewernow]

I think it helps to ask why someone would have an affair rather than pull out of the existing relationship, if they are unhappy.

Why lie? And continuously?

The flaws which enable someone to cheat are the same flaws which enable them to lie about it.

Fundamentally, it is a view of relationships which is based on power over others, in one way or another. And often very subtly, or unconsciously.

And funnily enough, that 'power over' dynamic is extremely often in evidence prior to any affair, in the form of other lies, general selfishness etc. It just isn't visible to the betrayed party, or at least not until later.

I didn't anticipate or expect my husbands betrayal- quite the opposite, as I believed his self story about the foolishness of affairs in others. But once I discovered it, over the next year I was taken aback at my increasing realisation of how many signs there were in him that he was always capable of it.

[Lweji]

Lazyjaney
You are concentrating on your argument with Charbon and essentially spouting a lot of rethoric but not addressing the actual question.

So, trying to be very plain, have you cheated?
Have you had problems in your marriage? If so, did you cheat?
If you have cheated, do you blame your partner? Was it not your choice?
If you haven't, why not? Was it not your choice?

[MissScatterbrain]

Charbon is talking a lot of sense.

Lazyjaney's posts do not make sense to me you haven't really listened to anyone have you?

[Missbopeep]

I think one point which is being missed here is that human beings are fallible.

It's not really possible to completely rationalise behaviour which stems from emotions.

There are numerous reasons why people have affairs. I don't actually see the point in debating it as a thread, TBH. The reason why one person has an affair is not going to be the same as someone else.

There may be marriage issues which pre empt that, there may not be.

I think it's ridiculous to suggest that problems in the marriage are never the catalyst for an affair. They clearly are and people who deny this often don't want to accept any responsibility for their own behaviour, which their partner may feel 'gives them license' to find emotional or physical comfort elsewhere. Equally it's ridiculous to say that in marriages which are okay one partner will never have an affair.

But trying to rationalise why people do certain things... people are fallible. It's the same as when someone smokes, or drinks, or eats that cake when they are already obese- they know it's wrong but at the time of committing the action they have a belief that it's okay, it's justified, it won't matter, or whatever.

Yes, the person doing any of those things has a choice and ultimately it's their choice. But just as with comfort eating some people have 'comfort' affairs.

I think what surprises me about this thread is the inability of some people to move on. I know the devastation an affair can cause- I've seen it amongst friends and families over decades, but equally there are worse things. Couples can and do recover.

[Upnotdown]

It depends on your own thinking/viewpoint, surely. I can't accept someone else's opinion if it doesn't resonate with me.

Our situation was horrendous - but as much as it was his decision to have an affair, I understand why. Our relationship wasn't great. Sex life was pretty sad, I refused to listen to his concerns. I never really approached him about mine. I worked the hours I wasn't sleeping or with playing with the children. When he started saying he was staying a few nights at a friends house, I held the door open - I did not want to know. It also suited me for the relationship to coast as it was. He (initially) was looking for comfort and re-assurance after being made redundant twice in a year and getting nothing from me. The mortgage here is in his name. We aren't married (together for over 17 years).

The conclusion now is, 'she could have been anyone'. What he was getting from her, he actually wanted from me but couldn't get it. Halfway into the affair is probably when he detached from us completely and was like a stranger with an attitude problem that grew worse every day.

So yes, whilst he took the decision to have an affair on his own, it was a bit more complicated than just wanting to 'have his cake'.

[Wellwobbly]

Dotty thank you so much. I am processing it all so that I never make the same mistake again...

But your comment 'equating infidelity with being stabbed is, well, ridiculous)'? You are saying invisible wounds because they can't be seen, don't count? Are you really saying that.

Honestly? I would MUCH rather have been stabbed. Seriously. I asked him why he and OW didn't arrange to have me shot (we live in that kind of place), because it would have hurt less. Even now, given the choice would you rather be stabbed and your lung punctured, or found out your whole family is based on a lie and you were never really loved? I would choose the stabbing. Today. I would rather be stabbed.

Google infidelity and trauma.
Youtube Willard Harley, who after years experience of being a counsellor would like it to be made back into a crime, it hurts people so badly.
People have said: they have been raped, had their house burned down, lost a child. But that their betrayal by someone who was inside their heart, was much worse.

I am not always going to hurt it will all be good. But again it is part of the myth isn't it?
The marriage caused it,
affairs are no big deal.

[Wellwobbly]

Good points Upnotdown. How wonderful that it was you all along he wanted!

And also, that you had the guts to face up to your part. If he had dragged you by the ear to counselling or told you he was become attracted to someone else, would you have listened? Or did it take an affair to wake you up to how much you took him for granted?

I would like to hear Charbon's comments about your situation.

[Upnotdown]

As much as it rips my heart out to say it, it actually took the affair to wake me up, Wellwobbly.

It's gutting to look back for so many reasons.

[Upnotdown]

Affairs are a massive deal - if you haven't been through it personally (witnessing it doesn't count), you shouldn't be so flippant. Yes they happen a lot, but it doesn't mean the pain is diluted. I've never felt anything like it, and I really didn't give a shit about my relationship. I can't conceive what it feels like for someone who thought everything was good in their marriage at the time.

[Missbopeep]

If the OP or anyone only wants comments from people who have experienced affairs from either side then they ought to make this clear. Not that it would carry any weight because this is a public forum and they opened a debate. It's quite possible to have empathy and understanding for all kinds of emotional issues without having experienced them.
It's also very uncharitable to ask people - or accuse them- of having affairs simply because they show some understanding of people who have affairs.
It's called being objective.

[MissScatterbrain]

I know the devastation an affair can cause- I've seen it amongst friends and families over decades, but equally there are worse things

No you do NOT know the full extent of devastation.

I have witnessed it in close family/friends but didn't understand just how traumatic it must have been for them (especially if you have a long history and believed you were in a happy marriage) until it happened to me. The cruel betrayal from someone you had regarded as your soul mate, best friend and life partner was like a train hitting me - the shock, the trauma, the loss all resulted in real physical and emotional pain.

Fortunately we were able to recover as a couple but the whole experience has left a huge mark on us and on the marriage and we will never be the same again

[MissScatterbrain]

Then Miss, perhaps you shouldn't have been so dismissive

[Missbopeep]

I would MUCH rather have been stabbed. Seriously. I asked him why he and OW didn't arrange to have me shot (we live in that kind of place), because it would have hurt less. Even now, given the choice would you rather be stabbed and your lung punctured, or found out your whole family is based on a lie and you were never really loved? I would choose the stabbing. Today. I would rather be stabbed.

If anyone really thinks this then they need serious help. Having your whole life centred on someone's love for you and wishing you would rather be dead if they are unfaithful or leave you is not healthy.

A happy and loving relationship is a blessing, but to have such a huge ego or whatever it may be that makes someone want to choose death over life without that person ( or their fidelity) is not that of a balanced mind. I feel sorry for anyone who feels that way.