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Relationships

'infidelity is caused by problems in the marriage'

239 replies

Wellwobbly · 08/10/2013 08:59

This has come up again in a thread.

I can't cut and paste (copyright), but would like to post three links of differing views, and ask people's input of what they think of them?

First:

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/07/couples-therapy_n_3977035.html?utm_hp_ref=divorce&ir=Divorce

Second:

chumplady.com/2013/10/it-takes-three/

Third:

www.davidclarkeseminars.com/apps/articles/?columnid=508&articleid=3813

What do you think?

OP posts:
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ComfySlipperGirl · 13/10/2013 11:53

saferniche - don't worry, I'm 99.999% sure it wont happen. I'm far too sensible, and well aware that the fantasy of these things is usually far better (and safer!!) than the messy reality.

But my point was that the cause of the fantasy, and if were the type of person to follow up, the actual affair, would not be a result of anything wrong with my marriage, but of something wrong with me.

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saferniche · 13/10/2013 12:31

ComfySlipperGirl I'm wiping my brow in relief here.

And yep - wise of you. I hear what you're saying - absolutely :)

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Lazyjaney · 14/10/2013 07:34

Therefore using your own opinion about why anyone would do that, I conclude that it is you who needs to hold on to comfortable myths rather than face an 'unpalatable truth

The idea that infidelity is never caused by problems in a marriage, not ever, is the myth. If you believe this you have to believe that the amount of marital infidelity would stay exactly the same whether all the marriages on the planet were blissfully happy or unspeakably miserable.

Seeing as your posts regularly argue on MNet for men's rights to behave badly and unfailingly blame women for their male partners' behaviour, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist or a gender determinist to work out why you take these positions and hold these views

That's a highly selective reading to suit your ends. I also note reading your posts that you often go in for personal attacks rather than argue the point.

My most recent posts have been this thread, which cuts either way sex wise, plus ones on: a woman being bullied to collude in an coveringbup her sisters affair by her dysfunctional family; how to organise entitled husbands to get kids to school; the grammar of maths, and that some posters on MN try and stifle debate by accusing opponents of being trollish - being accused of "goady" and "being a man" qualify there IMO.

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Lweji · 14/10/2013 07:50

But in that case can you claim that infidelity necessarily follows problems in the marriage? That at least some types of problems always lead to infidelity, if there is a cause and effect?

Problems in a marriage may lead to break ups, or detachment by partners. How they do it it's their choice.
If there are problems I can choose talking, counselling, splitting up, and yes cheat. But lots of people are unfaithful just because. Because they are bored, or need an ego boost. Not a problem with the marriage, but themselves.

The problem is that you consider it to be a cause.
Sometimes it may be a factor or excuse in the choice of the individual cheater, but not a cause.

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AnnieLobeseder · 14/10/2013 08:16

I don't think anyone has said infidelity is never caused by problems in the marriage, because it's blatantly obvious that very often that is the cause. I would say it is pretty much universally considered to be the main cause.

As I understand it, what people on this thread are trying to say is that sometimes infidelity is more about problems in the individual than in the marriage.

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Lweji · 14/10/2013 08:30

No, sorry, that's not what people are arguing.
Some say problems can be a cause.
Others that the immediate cause is a cheater, regadless of the existence of problems.
That unless there is a cheater no amount of problems will lead to cheating.

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Lazyjaney · 14/10/2013 08:36

For Annie.....

^Add message | Report | Message poster Charbon Fri 11-Oct-13 16:27:17
The straight answer to this question is that No, infidelity is not caused by problems in the marriage. Not even sometimes^

This is in essence what many people have been arguing for on this thread.

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Lazyjaney · 14/10/2013 08:46

Lweji, just because some people make a choice you dont like in response to a cause, it doesn't mean that choice is not a valid one.

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onefewernow · 14/10/2013 09:03

In my experience an unfaithful man, on discovery, will start by blaming the marriage partner, then the marriage. If that is refuted, they will then move on to providing at least a dozen conflicting reasons for the infidelity.

Why? Because half the time, they just don't know. They have chosen to dissociate to such an extent, and probably given it so little thought before discovery ( never expecting that day to arrive), that they havnt really a clue why.

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Offred · 14/10/2013 09:23

I've certainly not said a choice to cheat in response to certain problems in a marriage is not valid. I think I'd say it was not invalid though. However still wrong and still a choice.

Could you answer my question: what is the mechanism by which problems in a marriage causes infidelity.

All I'm saying is various problems are external factors which may influence the internal choice to cheat in various ways. But they don't cause cheating. A choice to cheat causes cheating.

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AnnieLobeseder · 14/10/2013 09:33

Well, I would disagree that it's never about problems in the marriage. BUT, I would agree that it's never only about problems in the marriage. I doubt there's ever one single influencing factor. Relationships and people are far more complex than that.

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saferniche · 14/10/2013 10:28

'A choice to cheat causes cheating' - neatly put.

AnnieLobeseder:

'I don't think anyone has said infidelity is never caused by problems in the marriage, because it's blatantly obvious that very often that is the cause.'

No it isn't blatantly obvious. All marriages have problems at various times, cheating will certainly help to make these problems far worse. No one can force a person in a modern democracy to stay married, no one can force them to stay faithful either, we make choices. The cause of infidelity is someone choosing to be unfaithful - unless drugged or forced under duress. Perhaps there are people who believe 'my marriage made me do it!' as if the marriage is holding a gun to their heads? If you're going to cheat at least take responsibility for your own behaviour. Try to be an adult.

Of course people become unhappy and of course marriages/partnerships end and some are abusive, people may need support to leave and sometimes that may mean they involve a third party. We should (and do) have compassion for individuals facing crisis. But in so many cases infidelity is as elegantly described by onefewernow: 'Why? Because half the time, they just don't know.'

Yes, problems in the marriage are 'pretty much universally considered to be the main cause' of infidelity. Which is why threads like this are necessary and posters like Charbon so important.

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Lweji · 14/10/2013 10:51

LazyJaney, we are not talking about validity of choices, but causes.
So, you accept that it is about a choice, not a direct cause between unhappiness and infidelity.

Even if a person falls in love with someone else, they have a choice to end their primary relationship first or embark on an affair. If there is a long term ill partner, it is their choice to be faithful, to tell the partner they have found someone else, or to leave. If there is abuse, it is still a choice to leave or be unfaithful for gratification and/or validation.

I'm not making moral judgments on cheating, but stating plainly that
the only reason for infidelity is a choice made by the person who cheats.

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Wellwobbly · 14/10/2013 10:57

Lazyjaney, if it is any consolation, the goady comment some posts back was most probably directed at me.

How can we get through to you that correlation is NOT causation?

Your attitude suggests that you have never been betrayed, but can I direct you to Whatnext's post for an insight into the complete trauma that betrayal and emotional abandonment is. We were quite worried about her. In my case, no one can ever hurt me like that again. It is simply not possible to be that distraught. I once read a post from a woman whose sister was run over and killed in front of her. She said her husband's affair was far more devastating.

When you repeat the myth (which is what this thread is about) you are in essence blaming the victim which further re-traumatises that spouse.

In therapy there are two distinct stages of healing from an affair: focussing on the affair, which is focussing on the person who chose to betray, finding out what it was in them that made them make this mistaken choice, work on getting them to be completely honest and transparent about all aspects of the secrecy and deceit, and getting them to hear their spouses rage and pain and reassure them.

Then, and only then after trust has been renewed can the issues of the marriage be worked on.

Notice how stage 1 kind of requires a personality transplant and the marriage isn't mentioned at all?

Rona Subotnik defines an affair as 'a maladjusted coping mechanism'.

OP posts:
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Charbon · 14/10/2013 13:27

Wobbly, I can see no comments in relation to goadiness directed at you. In fact, I'd like to thank you for starting such an interesting thread that will hopefully help our understanding of such an emotive issue.

The interesting aspect to this is how tenacious the myth is in the first place and how it somehow manages to obliterate logic and understanding, even when it's deconstructed. It's a good example of how an emotive subject can do that even to people who have no difficulty grasping logic or complex arguments about other topics.

For example, anyone who is familiar with the Ladder of Inference in relation to fair, objective decision-making as a manager or team leader might recognise this problem and see its resonance to the debate.

Which is why it's essential to look at the belief or discourse that's on the lowest rung of the ladder.

I think the confusion starts with the initial 'presumed fact' that all or most infidelity arises in relationships where the infidelitous person is unhappy and dissatisfied with his/her partner and their relationship together.

From that flawed premise, various other erroneous beliefs and conclusions follow.

Because that 'presumed fact' is wrong.

There is a significant proportion of affairs where the infidelitous partner reports no dissatisfactions in their primary relationship - or at least dissatisfactions that are capable of remedy by an existing partner. In many of those affairs typically the lure of the affair partner is that s/he is new/different and the lure of the affair itself is that it provides a person with a new relationship where the feelings are intense and highly-charged at the beginning. An existing partner cannot ever be 'new' again and it is virtually impossible to recreate the intensity of a new relationship in an established partnership.

People are often drawn to affairs of that kind when they are experiencing dissatisfactions or unhappiness in other areas of life that have previously defined them to a disproportionate extent. A career failure/stagnation, the acknowledgement that looks are fading, not being 'needed' as much by dependents, money worries, the loss of other important relationships often through bereavement. Another common flashpoint is if an area of life is stressful e.g a return to work, or a new job. An affair provides a quick fix' ego boost and an artificial high and is used as a prop coping mechanism.

The push factor however does not reside in dissatisfactions with an existing relationship or partner.

So having established that infidelity in those instances is not caused by problems in the marriage the 'presumed fact' instantly becomes a belief at most and a belief that is easily challenged.

Next then, it's necessary to examine those who are unhappy in their relationships and believe that this was the push factor in their decision to be unfaithful. As we will have often seen on threads here, one of the angles posters are keen to determine is whether the unhappiness was created by the affair itself and not the other way around. If it's insisted and accepted that it was pre-existing, all we can prove in a logical sense is this:

A person was unhappy in his/her relationship and decided to have an affair

That's all.

We can agree that it's possible or even probable that the unhappiness was a causal factor in that person's decision to have an affair rather than choose other remedies to address unhappiness.

What we can't say is that there is a direct causal link, because to do so would be to miss out the vital middle phase of decision-making where other options existed and were eschewed in favour of having an affair.

LazyJaney asserted that I had 'shifted my position' when I stated that I wasn't suggesting that affairs never happen when there is marital discord.

This wasn't a 'shift' at all.

There is no disonnance between stating that infidelity is never caused by problems in a marriage because it is caused by an individual's choice of it over other options - and saying that some affairs happen after there has been relationship discord. The two are entirely different statements that do not contradict eachother.

Perhaps it's also necessary to point out the obvious. A marriage itself cannot choose the infidelity that afflicts it and neither can an individual control the behaviour of another.

So when we discuss causal links in relation to other situations, we accept that there are situations in which the people most affected by the incidence of something had no control over events. This is important psychologically because it removes blame and responsibility where it isn't deserved and is recognised as an essential step in helping individuals recover from trauma.

That's why it's vital to challenge, deconstruct and debunk the myth in this thread and it's as important psychologically for the person having the affair to understand it as it is for the faithful partner coping with the trauma of infidelity. It's also helpful to the third party in the triangle if their own collusion has been secured based on a belief that the affair occurred because of a new partner's relationship dissatisfactions.

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Wellwobbly · 15/10/2013 06:45

That's OK, Charbon! I think what I was trying to do was reassure Lazyjaney that it surely wasn't her. When you are new and putting your views out there for the first few times I can remember feeling quite vulnerable and actually quite paranoid, and that feeling of being under attack I could recognise! Whereas in fact MN is a great place to define how you really feel and actually, to change the way you think about something if you are given new information about it. So don't run away Janey it is a great place and your input is valued.

I think this is one of the most eloquent posts I have read, from an American. They are busting into a therapist who says it takes three people to have an affair, and that all narrative should be given equal weight, that the dynamics of the marriage and what led to an affair should be looked at, ie Lazyjaney's standpoint. [Needless to say, he is probably crawling out of the arena barely alive...]


'But so many of these cheaters actively DON’T want to exit. At least in the physical sense. They want all the benefits of marriage plus a side piece of of cake. Emotionally, you could argue that they were never actually there in the first place. Because I feel if you had a real, healthy, deep emotional connection with someone, they wouldn’t be able to do that to you. You know, like what we felt for them and imagined they felt for us.

That’s the scariest part… how intensely we felt about them… how sure we were they felt the same way… and then… WHAM!'

My experience exactly. I loved him dearly. I would have loved the chance to go to counselling and with the help of a neutral third party communicate better.

But that wasn't as much fun as fucking his attractive co-worker. Hard to know how that can be pinned on me, really, even though I hold up my hands to having become a nagging whining shrew. That is what being ignored for over 10 years does to you... my responsibility, still.

OP posts:
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Lazyjaney · 15/10/2013 07:50

Charbon, your last post just uses more verbal gymnastics to recycle the same logical flaws. To recap:

  • because "many" people react in one way to a situation, it does not follow that all - even a majority - react that way.


  • because people can choose how to react to a situation, it does not follow that only some choices, and not others, can be valid effects. Either all possible choices are valid effects or none are.


The biggest problem though is that to believe that problems in a relationship never cause infidelity, not ever, you have to believe some truly incredible things, as I noted unthread.

You also have to believe all evidence and research to the contrary is lies, reported by liars.

The real reason for your viewpoint emerges at the end, ie to believe troubled relationships can cause affairs is very hurtful, so it's easier to believe a comfortable myth than an unpalatable truth
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Lweji · 15/10/2013 08:11


It's not about validity of choices.

But because some people chose to be unfaithful without problems in the marriage (other than caused by themselves) and others chose so when there are problems, it takes away the cause- effect relationship. The only common denominator is a person who has chosen to have an affair.
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Lazyjaney · 15/10/2013 08:12

Wellwobbly, I appreciate the olive branch, especially as you are the OP. I think that makes you the bigger person :)

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nooka · 15/10/2013 08:28

Fundamentally if problems in the marriage 'cause' infidelity, then the obvious effect that would be seen is both parties in the marriage having an affair. But this is pretty rare, I know a very small number of relationships where that is the case, and an even smaller number where both parties are unfaithful at the same time. So it really can't be a direct cause and effect relationship. Perhaps it's like fire (spark, oxygen AND fuel required) or fraud (pressure, opportunity AND rationalisation needed).

Actually I suspect that the fraud triangle probably does often apply, but even so the pressure equivalent would have a lot of different aspects, both internal and external (so mid-life crisis, difficulties in the marriage, underlying insecurities could all be potential causes). Then there is the need for a willing partner given that you can't have an affair with yourself, plus the time and other resources needed for the opportunity to be realised and finally the rationalisation part, that makes you think that your behaviour is justified (or valid as Lazeyjaney uses in this thread).

So you could say that infidelity has many causes, one of which may or may not be problems in the relationship. Thing is that once someone is chasing, looking for or even considering the opportunity they are quite likely to invent the rationalisation of 'problems in the marriage' even if they weren't that obvious previously, or if they were otherwise fixable, just because it is so often perceived as a perfectly good (or valid) justification.

As an example I overheard my dh tell his OW how terrible his Christmas had been without her, after having spent the past few days apparently having great fun with his children and siblings. I'm sure he believed it was true at the time he was talking to her, but none the less it was a fake 'my life is so bad without you justification'.

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saferniche · 15/10/2013 09:22

For reasons why people have affairs Peggy Vaughan (dearpeggy.com) suggested:

"Forces within the individual that pull them toward affairs
Forces within the individual that push them toward affairs
Societal factors"

A 'Desire to escape or find relief from a painful relationship' is one thing that may 'push' a person toward an affair. But it's a choice, even though it might be one factor making it more likely that a person will consider an affair or be susceptible if the opportunity arises.

Importantly:

"Despite whatever factors lead someone to be tempted to have an affair, whether or not they act on the temptation depends on their willingness to be dishonest and deceptive."

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saferniche · 15/10/2013 10:44

I was just remembering a close friend whose husband had affairs throughout their marriage: the au pair, a long-standing affair with a colleague (of them both) which she found out about later, a recently divorced neighbour who stood close by as they watched her husband playing with both their dcs and said 'That's exactly what I need' and a woman who was on her own account perfectly happily married until she met him.

My dear friend had been befriended by a couple who later took dh in after she finally told him to leave (he was mystified and very sorry for himself). And what did this couple then ask my friend about her marriage? 'Don't you feel at all guilty?'

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OrmirianResurgam · 15/10/2013 11:59

What nooka said: "Fundamentally if problems in the marriage 'cause' infidelity, then the obvious effect that would be seen is both parties in the marriage having an affair."

It happens as you say but the vast majority of cases is unilateral infidelity,

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Charbon · 15/10/2013 12:52

The real reason for your viewpoint emerges at the end, ie to believe troubled relationships can cause affairs is very hurtful, so it's easier to believe a comfortable myth than an unpalatable truth

I'm not sure what you're inferring but as this isn't a personal experience, others' hurt does not inform my viewpoint. My professional experience and logic does, however. As mentioned in my first, my posts on this thread are for other contributors and lurkers, just in case anyone was questioning the validity of engaging with such aggressive and personalised obtuseness.

So my experience and logic tells me that conferring responsibility or culpability on a person for a behaviour that was not theirs has the effect of re-traumatisation and can note the progress society has made in challenging that sort of blaming culture in other situations. For example, society rightly challenges the archaic and false view that a woman is in anyway culpable or responsible for her own rape or that an individual is ever responsible for domestic violence meted out by a partner. Quite rightly, we do not concern ourselves with what factors motivated a person's sexual or domestic violence, because they are irrelevant. A rapist chooses to rape and a violent partner chooses to strike and nothing their victims did beforehand is in any way relevant.

I think there might be some extreme naivety though in believing that debunking this myth is 'comfortable' for individuals who are grappling with infidelity. In fact, it's often far more comforting for people to believe it because then the situation appears to be within the control of the faithful partner. It's very understandable too for couples in the wake of an infidelity crisis to cling on to a belief that if in the future they have more sex, organise more date nights and generally 'up their game', this can never happen again.

It's far more uncomfortable to confront the fact that a person's actions and behaviour are beyond the control of a partner. Psychologically, human beings like to believe they have control over their destiny and part of our psyche is to cling on to myths to reassure ourselves that bad things won't happen to us, either at all or again. This is why people whose lives have never been affected by infidelity are so invested in the myth and it is why someone coping with profound shock and betrayal needs to believe they could have prevented it happening and can do so in the future.

It's far from comfortable acknowledging the concept of individual responsibility because that means we can only control our own behaviour and actions and not those of others. But once recovering couples acknowledge this, it provides a breakthrough and far more nuanced understanding of what really caused the infidelity and how only the individuals in it can control their own choices in the future.

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familyscapegoat · 15/10/2013 13:45

Gosh yes! I can relate to that.

As someone who was a self-confessed control freak, it would have been bloody lovely to have believed that I personally could have prevented my husband from having an affair. That was my comfort zone after all.

But I wasn't stupid and my memory was just fine so even if he'd indulged me with the lie that the reason for his affair was because he was unhappy in our marriage, I'd have recalled what he was saying, doing and how he was acting towards me prior to it. So I'd like to think that if I'd been unlucky enough to have a history re-writer in front of me, I'd have been able to preserve my own truth.

In the event, my husband never claimed unhappiness at all. His memory was just as good as mine and he knew it would have been bullshit.

I often dread to think what could have happened if there had been acknowledged unhappiness in our marriage. I'm sure it would have skewed the picture enormously and led to a false trail in determining the real causes behind what happened. I feel real empathy and concern for posters on this site who are going down that road and aren't pursuing other causes.

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