Is this inappropriate?

[unsure83]

NC as this is a pretty pathetic problem. But I can't work out if I am doing something wrong or not and would like the MN jury to help!

I am a member of a forum for people in a creative industry. It is something that I really enjoy and would like to make a career out of.

For the last four months or so, I have been private messaging/emailing one particular man on the forum. He is married and about 10/15 years older than me (I'm 30).

We exchange messages three or four times a week. He is a bit further on in his career, so is acting as something of a mentor to me - giving me help and advice, contacts etc. We exchange internet links and chat about random stuff.

At no stage have we ever discussed our personal lives, feelings etc. The tone of the messages is jokey and affectionate. I suppose it could be interpreted as flirtatious, but as far as I am concerned really isn't. Nothing sexual is ever said. For what it is worth, we do put a couple of kisses on the end of every message.

Anyway..I happened to mention this is in passing to a friend today. She was extremely shocked and quite angry. She said that it was completely inappropriate for me to exchange private messages with a married man. She said his wife would probably be mortified if she found out and that I was nothing but "wank material".

I've given the matter some thought. I haven't done anything I am ashamed of and am completely happy for his wife to read every message I've sent.

However, I have no desire to cause problems in a relationship - I read too much rubbish in this forum and would hate to be part of something like that.

I suppose my question is - is it inappropriate for me to be messaging him as I am?

Thanks for reading if you have got this far!

No, it's not your job to handle the jealousy of your friends' partners and unless you're actually discussing his wife or having steamy exchanges then there's nothing to be jealous of.

Putting kisses on the end of messages to a professional contact is a bit weird.

I dunno, it doesn't sound like you've done anything wrong, but aren't you uncomfortable about the frequency of messaging, the flirtatious tone, and the chatting about random stuff with a man who is a useful contact for your career?

He's married and if his wife was to find out he's been chatting to a younger, single woman he doesn't know 3 or 4 times a week about "random stuff" and being flirtatious and putting kisses on his messages, she might well ask him to stop all contact with you.

And he'll probably do it, because really you are nothing to him.

And then you've messed up what could have been a valuable professional relationship.

I'd pull way back if I were you.

And under no circumstances talk to him about the inappropriateness and whether you two should cool it. That really would be crossing a line.

They think it's inappropriate really? It's not he's asking you "what are you wearing".

OK... things that would concern most people -

1. the kisses (although if that's your normal text format to all males I understand why you do it). when read by a partner/wife it can be gut wrenching. as it's a form of affection normally reserved for people that we have feelings for (at his our age).

1. the frequency of the texting/conversations. how often did you speak to a tutor at uni or a mentor at work? if fewer times than this then you are perhaps texting too much. If this is taking energy away from his DW then you are becoming a problem.

1. Dependency- do you feel like it is becoming a big part of your day? do you look forward to the communication? if so - watch out.

1. The times- this is the final step- if you find yourself texting before 9am and after 10pm too often then you are cutting into family time - wake up/school prep time and husband and wife alone time. That would mean he is emotionally investing in the time to talk to you.

If non of the above apply and he is happy to discuss his wife and invite her to meet you then you should be ok. But the fact that you question it even after a friend says it means you are probably aware that the boundaries shifting

Really are you that naive that you don't realise regular emails with flirty banter and kisses on the end is inappropriate.
You are 30 years old. Put yourself in his wife's position. How would you feel? Would you carry on like this if you were married or had a partner.
A professional mentor is one thing. It is not normal email for 45 year old married men to put kisses on the end. I suspect you like the attention too.

Got to agree with Quilt sorry.

Have to agree with Quiltcover also.

Not at all surprised to see that your friend was angry at your behaviour.

You're being used by this man who is taking advantage of your youth and naiveity.

I don't think I could comment without seeing the messages. If the messages would be identical if your mentor was a woman (and assuming you're heterosexual), I can't see that you're doing anything wrong TBH. That says nothing about his motives however.

I would, however, stop the XXXs because not only is it rather unprofessional, it's just cringey.

Even if your own behaviour is above reproach and you have nothing to be ashamed of, always be wary of how others relate to you in a professional capacity. Although everyone is responsible for their own behaviour, if you want to survive and get on in any profession, you should be aware that if a colleague has 'designs' on you (even if all they want is a bit of flirtatious banter) and it all goes tits up, as a younger, less experienced and female colleague, you are the one who will be left out in the cold. It pays to be friendly but with clear boundaries in place.

"Although everyone is responsible for their own behaviour, if you want to survive and get on in any profession, you should be aware that if a colleague has 'designs' on you (even if all they want is a bit of flirtatious banter) and it all goes tits up, as a younger, less experienced and female colleague, you are the one who will be left out in the cold. "

This.

Very much this.

Thanks all.

Your views are very interesting. I am very aware that my reputation would be on the line if anything went wrong - I am a professional in my own right (lawyer) and have seen far too many young colleagues have affairs with older men. I would never risk my reputation that way.

However, this is a new venture for me and I don't know how things work in this line. I guess I didn't ever consider it because there is such distance - he lives 100 miles away, we are unlikely to ever meet in person, there is nothing in those messages that I wouldn't send to a woman.

But, I will take on board what you say. Now just need to work out how to ease myself away whilst still keeping him onside!

I think its fine,OP, and your friends reaction was OTT. Perhaps she has some issues of her own, and memories were jarred.

I do not think you should progress the relationship any further
I do not think you should ever agree to meet
I do not think you should increase the level of flirtiness in the messages, or exchange any more personal info than you already have
And if the chap on the other end does ever try to escalate things, I would give him short shrift.

But, for now, as it stands, and assuming you are not glossing over more serious involvement .....its sounds perfectly OK to me and I have historic reasons to view these things with deep suspicion

Re: kisses. It does depend a little on how the relationship has developed and whether friendliness/professionalism is being handled in the same way by both parties.
I had an MD who signed off lots of emails to me with a kiss. When it was a friendly email.
Notably missing if he was ticked off about something.
He knew it was not ever going to be misinterpreted.

That said - ff my understanding is correct - you neither work for or with this man? it is a forum which is hobby based, and which you are looking to personally take from hobby to business status? he is a fellow member with more advanced skills? In that scenario, sensible limits apply but not the same restrictions as apply within the workplace. Hence my previous response.

Thanks MissManaged - I am certainly not glossing over anything more, I have no reason to.

I have never thought about these issues until today - precisely because there really is nothing more to it. I would never do any of the things you list, and if he did, I would back off.

I guess there is a level on which his motivations could be questioned - why does he care about me so much? Why does he spend a reasonable amount of time helping me?

But - if he did think this would turn into a shag, wouldn't he have said something, anything, to indicate that in the last four months?

Oh well, never mind. Thanks for your reply :)

"But - if he did think this would turn into a shag, wouldn't he have said something, anything, to indicate that in the last four months? "

First of all, he doesn't have to be hoping for a shag for it to be inappropriate.

Often when people have affairs (physical or emotional), there is no initial intention to find someone to shag.

He might just find you attractive, or enjoy the escapism of having a younger, single woman be so interested in listening to everything he has to say.

It's worth wondering what's in it for him. He's helping you privately, so there's no reputation advantage for him.

You're getting good advice and contacts. What's he getting?

"affectionate" and joking about random stuff, plus signed off with kisses?

Yes, this would already be a reputation wrecker if read by colleagues. I suggest you rein this in a bit. Unless your friend is a fruitcake, she has probably seen all too clearly that you are in a vulnerable position - both professionally and personally - because what your are doing is far too often the start of a slippery slope. And every person on that slope genuinely believes they'll slide no further - but that intention is not something you can rely on.

If you decide not to rein it in, then at least work on keeping your CV up to date.

That said - ff my understanding is correct - you neither work for or with this man? it is a forum which is hobby based, and which you are looking to personally take from hobby to business status? he is a fellow member with more advanced skills? In that scenario, sensible limits apply but not the same restrictions as apply within the workplace. Hence my previous response

Absolutely yes to this. You have expressed this so much better than I could. It is an industry I want to be in, and he is in already. I will never work for him and am highly unlikely to ever work with him.

I was going to say exactly what playfellow said - personally I'd question his motives.

Putting kisses on the end of messages to a professional contact is a bit weird.
This can depend on the industry. In my industry (entertainment) kisses on emails etc between professionals you deal with are all too very common.

Whilst I use them reservedly, some of my contemporaries out there lavish them upon everyone. It is completely meaningless.

In your own words... Jokey, affectionate and "could be interpreted as flirtatious"...

Well if I found out my DH was swapping jokey, affectionate, flirtatious messages with some randomer that he got chatting to on a forum I wouldn't be thrilled, I doubt many wives would.

If I was the wife I would be very annoyed.

And I am generally a very trusting, laid back partner.

I suspect a lot of wives might be amazed at how many jokey, affectionate, faintly flirtatious totally innocent messages are exchanged every single day, between people who communicate frequently and have become friends through business.
They never meet
It never leads anywhere, because it is not that kind of relationship in the first place.
It is not threatening in any way

Its just friendly comms, and nothing more.

Why the assumption that this guy is hiding these chats from some demure, neglected wife? He might've told her from the outset that he has a "young female friend". Of course, it's understandable to be pissed off if you catch your SO 'flirting' behind your back,, but if you're aware of it from the outset, where's the deception? Who's to say the guy isn't the neglected party in his marriage? My (then) partner and I discovered the net together when forums and chatrooms were about the only things on it. We BOTH flirted online and were fine with it,,, and made it clear to those we spoke to that we weren't looking for anything physical. Fact is, your partner is gonna have emotional attachments of varying degrees with people of both genders,, it doesn't mean they harbour intentions of sleeping with them. SECURE people don't resent these attachments. INSECURE people do and try to break them,, the results of their attempts to control them appearing on these boards every hour of every day. The behaviour they hope will keep their partners, in fact, driving them away. The OP says she's barely even flirting and wouldn't mind wifey seeing them. Since we know NOTHING about her, nobody can say she hasn't already seen them and doesn't give a shit, any more than you can claim she'd be devastated. The OP is doing nothing wrong that she's aware of. Everything else is all 'might's which are counterbalanced by 'might not's. I'd like hard evidence of harm being done before I berate the OP for doing little more than signing messages to a married guy with xxx. It's hardly tantamount to illicit shagging, is it?

I agree with MissManaged. Fancying someone at work just makes the day go by quicker.

"Why the assumption that this guy is hiding these chats from some demure, neglected wife?"

Who said anything about demure and neglected (other than you)?

Making something up and then accusing other people of having said it is a bit silly.