What have we raised?

[Givemeanear]

As a family we are in a dreadful situation, our eldest son just hates me and OH!

He has always been difficult, we had a nightmare through his teens, ended in a court appearance and community service. That stopped that type of illegal behaviour, he cleaned up his friends and no more problems like that for a good three years.

He is now 21.5, currently working part time, but due to start full time in three weeks.

This all sounds great, but it's not! He is vile in the home, his room is absolutely revolting, like something off hoarders. He literally throws rubbish on the floor.

He only has a job as myself and OH constantly get him up and out of the house, we are screamed at, squared up to, threatened and generally spoken to like dirt.

This weekend, Saturday his alarm was going off, he kept snoozing it, so about five mins before he was due to leave the house, I said are you not getting up. When he found out the time, I got a torrent of abuse for leaving it so late. That night he rolled in at 5am, OH trying to get him up for work the next day was met with abide, threatening behaviour. He is a MASSIVE liar, OH was standing over him in bed saying get up, he is saying I am up! He does that all the time, ridiculous, mad lies, but then totally denies it.

That night he forgot his key, OH went to work at 4am, I was woken by him trying to get in at 4.30am, the next morning I didn't bother to get him up for work.

He does nothing in the house, the main problem though is he denial that he has ever done anything wrong. He blames us for everything to the point it is just madly ridiculous! Like he will stand there kick something and break it and then completely deny it.

It is extremely hard to talk sense with someone like this.

I know everyone will say kick him out, but how? He would not go, he would be back, he has no money.

He pays a pittance in rent, he won't abide by any rules, is currently in the shower and will be for 15 mins even though we say 5 mins max.

In reality our eldest DS owes us everything, we have got him out of so much trouble, saved his job 10000 times, but he clearly hates everything about us.

For the record, youngest DS is 19, and just a run of the mill teenager, we have a great relationship.

I almost feel sorry for eldest DS, except it is his own doing.

If he is going to be working full-time in 3 weeks, I think that sounds like perfect timing to let him get his own flatshare accommodation and let him have full responsibility for himself.

Better late than never.

This is the mistake you made:

"In reality our eldest DS owes us everything, we have got him out of so much trouble, saved his job 10000 times, but he clearly hates everything about us."

Why? Why did you shield him from consequences? What did you think you were doing? Why can't you see you are letting him down and not allowing him to grow as a valid and competent human being? Why are you so enabling? Where did you confuse love and babying?

He doesn't have a problem at all. YOU have the problem! So now, is the time to make sure HE has the problems.

You are still shielding him. You are 'allowing' to have your father's flat so diddums won't suffer too much. Don't do this! Why are you doing this? He is a capable 21 year old, not a helpless freak.

Tell the little shit that you want him out by x date. You will pay for one month's deposit, and nothing more - and if he even THINKS about speaking to you in a loud voice, you will have him arrested.

Then DO IT.

Sorry if I sound harsh OP, but discipline is SUCH a misunderstood concept in the modern world.

Discipline is not abuse. Discipline is love and it takes a lot of focus, compassion and strength.

Discipline is: drawing a boundary and giving a consequence, and then holding (containing) the child whilst they are in their state of discomfort and shame. That means being strong enough for the both of you, whilst they learn that their discomfort will not kill them, and that learning the new skill (which usually involves thinking about other people/reciprocating) actually makes THEIR lives better.

Parents who cannot bear to put in the effort to be strong and hold their child because THEY cannot bear the discomfort, are actually being self-indulgent, not doing their job of love and they are really hurting (spoiling is a verb) their children.

So be strong OP! Love your child enough to care how he will fit in to the world. He is going to be a partner and a father one day, how can he do this successfully if he has never been taught how to give and think of others?

You have rewarded his awful behaviour with his own place to disrespect

Rent free is it, just to get him out from under ?

You will regret this, sorry

He will fill the house with mates and trash it. It's a well worn strategy to pay for or provide an alternative address and they usually do just that.

Here is the perfect text, which I've always remembered:

" do not snatch away from your children the opportunity to benefit from the learning which comes from making and righting their own mistakes."

I'm reading this thread with interest OP and hope you are gaining strength from it. We all do our best as parents and we don't always get it right first time!

I have a clever SS who is 22 and I believe has high functioning autism. He is awful to share a house with due to his rituals and lack of empathy and clumsiness. The problem is deciding which of his behaviours are due to his learning difficulties and which are spoiled brattiness. DP and I debate how much to help him and how much to give him tough love. We can't leave him in the house for long alone as he floods/sets fire to/breaks it. But he is arrogant and doesn't listen to us and thinks he is owed everything. I am thinking the solution may be to set him up in a rental place and see what happens....

I don't have a solution but I share your difficulties.

let me tell you - my husband adored his son, he excused and defended him, all the time, ALL THE TIME, he would see no wrong in him, to the point we caught him BEATING his step brother (5 years younger than him) apparently my son had "wound SS up", I went absolutely mental.

I asked DH how he would feel if SS had been beating his sister, if that would be OK, because SD would SS up.

It was at this point I made DH face up to his responsibilities as a parent, its not a popularity contest, discipline is part and parcel of being a parent - its part of love - teaching our children how to be respectful of their loved ones is out duty.

One day your DS will be treating his wife like this, because you are teaching him its ok.

FWIW we subsequently discovered that SS was abusing the children in the house regularly, they were too scared to tell us.

You have responsibilies not only to your older DS but to your younger, what message are you sending him.

Don't get me wrong, I sympathise with you - to a degree I was you - the first time I had SS removed from my house by the police for violence (verbal I'm going to fucking kill you threats) he was 14, the last time he was 20, no times in the middle.

I should have left him gone, for his sakes and ours. Ours lives will never be the same, you have the chance to show your older and younger DS, this behaviour is not acceptable.

Take it - please, for everyones sake, including older DS.

Give him a date to leave by , NOT to go to your dads flat but into the real world where he is accountable for his behaviour. He will be working full time so can rent a room in a shared house or a bedsit. Help him with the deposit but DO NOT act as guarentor. Then step back and leave him to it.

^ This, absolutely ^

I hope he turns his life around, for his own sake as well as yours

Do not let him into that flat, you will bitterly regret it! He will trash it and you will never get him out. What looks like a good, short-term solution will turn into a long-term nightmare for you.

I agree with nottalotta, help him with a deposit for another flat but do not act as a guarantor and make it clear to him that this is your last time helping him financially. If there is any trouble at all regarding getting him out of your house then withdraw the offer of the deposit, change the locks and call the police if he tries to enter your home without permission.

Good luck.

You are just extending your enabling by putting him in that flat, DO NOT DO IT!!!!

He will never grow up until he has to stand on his own two feet!!

'Why? Why did you shield him from consequences? What did you think you were doing? Why can't you see you are letting him down and not allowing him to grow as a valid and competent human being? Why are you so enabling? Where did you confuse love and babying?'

OP can you answer these questions? Can you and your DH sit down, go over the questions and come back with a reply?

Because IN your answers, ie your beliefs, fears and thought processes, you will find your solutions.

Really, don't do it. It will just be a different nightmare to the one you are living now :(

He needs to move out, but not to your Dad's flat. DO NOT DO IT.

None of us know, of course, but it doesn't sound like MH issues to me. I think you should tell him that he has to move out next weekend. That you have had enough of him treating you like shit - it stops now and (as someone else said) warn him before you say it, that should he as much as raise his voice to you, you will call the police.

PLEASE - do not move him into your Dad's flat - as other posters have said - you may never get him out!!

I suggest a bedsit or a room in a shared house. Let him discover the delights of pot noodles, getting up early so as to have a shower with hot and not lukewarm water, and doing his own laundry. If you feel you have to help him on his way lend/pay his first lot of rent.

Another vote for DO NOT GIVE HIM YOUR EMPTY FLAT!

He can grow up. Remind yourself - what were you and your friends doing at the same age as him? Bet not treating your parents' home like a hostel.

You have never allowed him to grow up and he has never been allowed to fail. He behaves like this because he knows there are no consequences and he would atm treat any wife like this as well because you are there to go there there and pick up the pieces for him.
Do not give him the flat that is compounding the issues he will have no respect for it and it will cost you heartache and cash hand over fist.

Give him a date to leave by and if he doesn't start moving his stuff outside and change your locks. If he gets aggressive have him removed by the police. He needs to learn a lifetimes worth of lessons in a very short space, or in a few years it will be your grandchildren who will be suffering because of his actions.

DO NOT allow him into your Dads flat, he will trash it and make selling it a nightmare, think of potential viewings and the state of your sons room that is what the whole flat will be like!

You are rewarding him for being totally vile to you. If you want him to stop you must stop!

Give him the deposit and first months rent for a house share (one that's bill and everything included in the rent) and send him on his way.

Yet another vote for do not let him move into the flat. It's more enabling, more handing him stuff on a plate, and he desperately needs discipline and learning the consequences of his actions. What on earth makes you think he'll have any respect for your late father's flat?! He'll most likely turn it from a saleable property into a doss hole, and not give a shit about that. Then what are you going to do?

If it is drugs - going to al-anon may be a way to give u strength and support to get your son out. Sounds like he needs army bootcamp? Some very good suggestions here.

I wonder if sending him on a working holiday to a school say in Africa would be a way of changing his mindset. N

DO NOT MOVE HIM INTO YOUR DADS FLAT. HE WILL NEVER LEAVE OR WILL DESTROY IT IN DAYS

Wow, sorry for the shouty there!

I think maybe OP has run away.

Maybe she's realised that asking for help from people who come up with ideas such as 'send him to africa' is a waste of time. you tell him 5 mins for a shower op? wow. thats cold.